RX Reven' said:Let's just get to the end game...$29.95 per month to enable the ABS and airbags and not have the exhaust vent into the cabin.
How much for the piped in exhaust noise through the stereo speakers ... 
RX Reven' said:Let's just get to the end game...$29.95 per month to enable the ABS and airbags and not have the exhaust vent into the cabin.
How much for the piped in exhaust noise through the stereo speakers ...
In reply to mr2s2000elise :
There's a reason most of my German cars are older, they're more reliable and easier to fix. I used to love BMW's and have owned several M3's but I have no desire to own a new one. They're wildly unreliable now, look fugly and don't really perform all that well.
MadScientistMatt said:"Hmmm, what would the BMW's second or third owner pay to unlock these features permanently?"
Second or third owner? You mean the junkyard or dumpster?
The last modern BMW I bought (2011 E90 335xi) started having serious troubles at 25k miles. By 50k miles it wasn't worth fixing.
mtn (Forum Supporter) said:Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) said:dean1484 said:
This would never work with Toyota or Mazda because the demographic that purchas there cars is different.
Yet here Mazda is, trying to go upmarket. I think that even if BMW's idiotic decision here loses them market share, it'll be Lexus or Benz that takes it over.Won't be Lexus. I'd think either Benz or Genesis.
The entry level, luxury sedan market is shrinking, but Tesla's absolutely dominating what's left of that segment recently.
It will be interesting to see how the Model Y and maybe the Mach E fit into the entry level lux CUV market which is the real sales barometer of success these days.
mtn (Forum Supporter) said:
How has this worked out for John Deere? (Not rehtorical, I'm legitimately asking)
Old, tech free John Deere units have increased in value, there's a niche market for hacking the newer John Deere units as well.
rustybugkiller said:Why don't they just concentrate on making the cars more reliable after the warranty runs out!
The reason why the seat heaters stop working after you are done making payments... 
mr2s2000elise said:Dave M (Forum Supporter) said:The unreliability is a feature, not a bug.
If I told this truth to all my German owning friends and collegues, I wouldn't have any friends left.
I don't think this is necessarily true for all German cars though, but it sure does seem as though this is very true for BMW.
Porsches seem to hold up, it's just that when they do break they're exceptionally expensive to fix. Volkswagens and Audis aren't much trouble if you stick to their lower spec engines (inline single turbos good, v-block twin turbos bad). I don't know enough about Mercedes to say, but I don't seem to see as much complaining as I do with BMW owners.
This is all one person's observations, of course, so I'm probably wrong.... but my high mileage Volkswagen has been good to me.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:This can easily play out with future power trains where you have to pay more to get more power, through software, even if the hardware is exactly the same. In some ways it's already very close to that with some manufacturers.
I've heard claims that the Neon SRT-4 already did that. There was a Stage 2 tune sold through dealers which reportedly just changed the torque request mapping so that the ECU's horsepower target was raised at full throttle, but none of the other tables were changed. The ECU had already been mapped for what sort of boost, fuel, and ignition tables would be used for the higher horsepower target, and the upgrade just made this accessible.
MadScientistMatt said:Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:This can easily play out with future power trains where you have to pay more to get more power, through software, even if the hardware is exactly the same. In some ways it's already very close to that with some manufacturers.
I've heard claims that the Neon SRT-4 already did that. There was a Stage 2 tune sold through dealers which reportedly just changed the torque request mapping so that the ECU's horsepower target was raised at full throttle, but none of the other tables were changed. The ECU had already been mapped for what sort of boost, fuel, and ignition tables would be used for the higher horsepower target, and the upgrade just made this accessible.
Yeah, but that's understandable and not really douchey; it's a warranty thing. Follow me here:
I believe it was Sennheiser that got in trouble for this. They made $50 headphones and $75 headphones. The $50 set was physically identical to the $75 set except that they had a little piece of paper jammed in them to muffle the sound quality a little, and encourage you to pay the extra $25, which was pure upcharge / profit, for the "better" phones. That's not at all what Dodge was doing.
What Dodge was doing was setting the default programming at a reasonable compromise between power and longevity, in order to minimize warranty claims. So basically what you pay for the higher output / more stressed tune is covering Dodge's extra potential for an engine failure that they might need to pay for. Ford does the same thing with Ecoboost Mustangs. For $500 you can buy a Ford Performance tune that gives a healthy boost to the output of the stock engine. The engine is already capable of that but you're paying for both the development of the extra tune PLUS the increased warranty exposure.
Or, to use another example, commercial roofing. There is physically zero difference between a 20-year EPDM membrane roof and a 30-year version, but obviously the 30-year roof is notably more expensive. 100% of the extra cost is going into the increased liability exposure, NOT the labor or materials, which are identical.
But this BMW subscription-service-option thing is just douchey, a lot more like the Sennheiser ploy.
MadScientistMatt said:Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:This can easily play out with future power trains where you have to pay more to get more power, through software, even if the hardware is exactly the same. In some ways it's already very close to that with some manufacturers.
I've heard claims that the Neon SRT-4 already did that. There was a Stage 2 tune sold through dealers which reportedly just changed the torque request mapping so that the ECU's horsepower target was raised at full throttle, but none of the other tables were changed. The ECU had already been mapped for what sort of boost, fuel, and ignition tables would be used for the higher horsepower target, and the upgrade just made this accessible.
A remarkable number of modern turbo engines are mapped to much higher boost/mass flow levels, and then get detuned for warranty/marketing reasons.
Heck, I was told flat out that a certain engine had different power ratings not because of any hardware, but because of coolingc capacity. The power was there and mapped out, but torque limited on purpose.
Duke said:Yeah, but that's understandable and not really douchey; it's a warranty thing.
Yes, I didn't think it was a bad move, just an example of how the software-unlockable horsepower might already exist. IIRC, the stage 2 ECU upgrade carried a warranty as well.
MrFancypants said:mr2s2000elise said:Dave M (Forum Supporter) said:The unreliability is a feature, not a bug.
If I told this truth to all my German owning friends and collegues, I wouldn't have any friends left.
I don't think this is necessarily true for all German cars though, but it sure does seem as though this is very true for BMW.
Porsches seem to hold up, it's just that when they do break they're exceptionally expensive to fix. Volkswagens and Audis aren't much trouble if you stick to their lower spec engines (inline single turbos good, v-block twin turbos bad). I don't know enough about Mercedes to say, but I don't seem to see as much complaining as I do with BMW owners.
This is all one person's observations, of course, so I'm probably wrong.... but my high mileage Volkswagen has been good to me.
Mercedes "quality":
They are just as bad as BMW's these days.
fanfoy said:MrFancypants said:mr2s2000elise said:Dave M (Forum Supporter) said:The unreliability is a feature, not a bug.
If I told this truth to all my German owning friends and collegues, I wouldn't have any friends left.
I don't think this is necessarily true for all German cars though, but it sure does seem as though this is very true for BMW.
Porsches seem to hold up, it's just that when they do break they're exceptionally expensive to fix. Volkswagens and Audis aren't much trouble if you stick to their lower spec engines (inline single turbos good, v-block twin turbos bad). I don't know enough about Mercedes to say, but I don't seem to see as much complaining as I do with BMW owners.
This is all one person's observations, of course, so I'm probably wrong.... but my high mileage Volkswagen has been good to me.
Mercedes "quality":
They are just as bad as BMW's these days.
Is that normal for Mercedes up north or is this an exceptional example?
MrFancypants said:fanfoy said:MrFancypants said:mr2s2000elise said:Dave M (Forum Supporter) said:The unreliability is a feature, not a bug.
If I told this truth to all my German owning friends and collegues, I wouldn't have any friends left.
I don't think this is necessarily true for all German cars though, but it sure does seem as though this is very true for BMW.
Porsches seem to hold up, it's just that when they do break they're exceptionally expensive to fix. Volkswagens and Audis aren't much trouble if you stick to their lower spec engines (inline single turbos good, v-block twin turbos bad). I don't know enough about Mercedes to say, but I don't seem to see as much complaining as I do with BMW owners.
This is all one person's observations, of course, so I'm probably wrong.... but my high mileage Volkswagen has been good to me.
Mercedes "quality":
They are just as bad as BMW's these days.
Is that normal for Mercedes up north or is this an exceptional example?
Exceptional example. Mercedes that late model, (looks like a V6 era C280) in general, don't rust. Unless they've had cheap bodywork done.
Looking at the way it looks like the clearcoat is gone from the metal parts, given the color tone and polishedness difference between the fender/doors and the rocker cover and front bumper... it's had some real crappy bodywork done. M-B factory paint is really good.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Breaking the quote chain because it's getting a little long.
That was my impression, that the location of much of the rust implied poor repair work and/or neglect. It's been years since I lived up north, but as I recall it seemed that the worst corrosion was typically around the wheel wells and rocker panels. Clearly there's some in that area on this car, but I can't imagine the rust on the middle of the door happening unless the paint chipped off.
In reply to MrFancypants :
I am assuming non OE panels, and what little rust protection there was, was knocked off when the trim and door handles and such were installed.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
The picture I posted was an extreme example that was obviously poorly repaired.
But the 2000+ Mercedes rust just as well as any Japanese makes in road-salt land. It's not bad, but it isn't great either.
For example, there are roughly 2500+ Mercedes cars for sale right now locally. About 100 of them are from the 1995 to 2005 period. That is a very small survival rate. And the ones that are for sale look like E36 M3 and have issues. You may say that's too old...there are only 335 cars from 2005 to 2010. And it's the same deal as the of rust and issues.
It's not that it's especially bad, but it's pretty ordinary...but the parts prices aren't.
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