We need to talk oil...

I've been sent to a bunch of training this week on a lot of stuff, but the oil stuff really opened my eyes. I'm fairly knowledgable about oil in general, and motorsports/classics stuff, and yet I still left feeling overwhelmed.

When you sell a "Full Synthetic" oil in the USA, it only needs to be 28% synthetic to qualify under API standards. Pick up a bottle of Mobil 1 5W20 full synthetic, it is API only. Pick up any bottle of NAPA house brand full synthetic, and it is API only.

To sell in Europe under ACEA standards, it has to be 100% synthetic. Pick up a bottle of Valvoline SynPower full synthetic and you will see the ACEA spec along with the API (OIL FACT: The NAPA house stuff is not the same as the Valvoline, despite both being made by Ashland!).

We all know that Ford motors, specifically the 4.6/5.4/5.0 Mod Motors, have to run 5W20 or massive issues will result (timing chain tensioners, etc). There are already multiple engines requiring 0W20, with 0W10 and 0W8 coming soon. We also know about a lot of factory specs that really mean something (VW 505.00/505.01, GM Dexos 1/Dexos 2, etc). With the CAFE standards the manufacturers have gotten really serious about it. You need to pay attention to what the factory requires!

I'm still trying to process everything, but at least I had enough of a handle on it for the ancient pushrod 3800 in the Grand Prix, which just rolled 145K this morning and is getting a change tomorrow. BITOG taught me Valvoline MaxLife 10W30 for that seeping monster every 5K OCI with a K&N filter (Wix is fine, but I can change the oil way faster with that 1" nut on the K&N), and the oil manufacturers all agreed with that. It is getting a bottle of Liqui-Moly Engine Flush right before the change with a supplement of Lubro-Moly Engine Oil Saver with the new fill (currently losing ~1.25qts/5K miles).

On the Saturn V's EcoTec 2.2 though... dead lost. I've only done 1 change on it (Wix with 5W30 Mobil 1), but now that I know Mobil can b a sham, I don't want to support them. Doing some digging shows GM recommending 0W30 in that motor in other markets (like how Honda actually designed everything for 0W20 but recommended 5W20 in the US due to availability issues until now), so now I have no idea what to put in it (110K miles coming up next weekend).

I'm thinking Liqui-Moly 5W30 Longtime High Tech or Eneos 5W30, both of which are 100% synthetic (ACEA) with the latest additive packages. I know I'll use some Lubro-Moly MOS2 in it no matter what. I did order a Euro-spec Mahle filter...

Sigh. I just figured out swapping from Valvoline VR1 Racing from 20W50 to 10W30 in the Javelin improved cold and hot oil pressure, consumption, and seepage. Plus the whole old API SJ spec so it still has the zinc and phosphorus for the hydraulic camshaft (versus the modern SM/SN ratings without those additives for emissions, etc). Guess I'm still years behind in understanding...

Ah well, anyways, please chime in with your Oil Facts.

My truck likes Walmart synthetic oil. That's about all the facts I have right now.

Fact: My truck's engine definitely prefers to have some oil in it.

Here's my anecdotal evidence. I've never studied oils, I just use the same old crap I've been using for years.

I run whatever dead animal oil is on sale in a 10W-40 or 20W-50 flavor.

Pretty sure the 02 Ford work van got Walmart 10W-40 and a Fram filter last time and it's seen everything from Rotella to Advance swill. It gets changed about 8 times a year so the oil ins't in it long. It just rolled 380K, so I don't see any reason to change now.

The Samurai gets a name brand 20W-50, otherwise the hot pressure drops too low for me. It ages out before it reaches the mileage. It gets new oil every 6 months.

The 460 in the truck and the BMW get 10W-40. I think the truck got the tail end of several jugs last oil change, so it was probably three different brands. Might have been a couple of different weights. The BMW does get Rotella every time, I read somewhere the lifters liked it. They both get new oil every 6 months.

The Jeep gets whatever Jiffy Lube dumps in it every 5k miles. I hate that thing, I refuse to change the oil in it. I don't particularly want it in my yard, but the wife won't get rid of it. Hopefully it will die soon.

All of the above engines have over 200K on them except the truck and it's at 170K.

My personal opinion is, what you use is less important than how often you change it. Keep it full and change it regularly.

Interesting that the 5.4 is supposed to use a special weight. I ran 10W-40 in my E150 5.4 for 180K without any problems. I still see that van around town fairly regularly, so it must have not minded 10W-40 too much.

I'm certainly not the expert, so I don't recommend following my advice. It works for me and I'm probably not going to change in this lifetime.

The signal:noise ration on BITOG appears better than it really is, lots of guys playing armchair chemist. Keep that in mind.

The two vehicles you describe would run forever on pretty much any API certified oil and not orange can filter on a 4-5k mile interval.

In reply to Toyman01:

The Ford Mod motor is notorious for having issues directly related to the wrong oil, but like the spark plug thread blow-out, you either get it or you don't. I have commercial accounts with hundreds of these motors in their fleets, many with over 350K miles on them. They all use 5W20 full synthetic (straight from an oil dealer in bulk) with 5K OCI's. The fleets that didn't have about a 40% failure rate on the motors. I sell a complete timing chain tensioner set every week on average.

In general though, I totally agree with you. I was definitely a quantity over quality oil guy (3K OCI on the dot, with anything but a Fram, and whatever the 710 cap said to use for weight) and it works great for 90% of the stuff out there. The problem is that's not going to work anymore on the newer stuff (~05 to today, but especially 12-15MY's). My largest account is massive Toyota dealer, and they warranty deny engines every week over not using Toyota-spec 0W20 full synthetic (Eneos is the factory fill, WS spec). New engine bearing tolerances are down to .0009"!

Your stuff is probably all fine except the BMW. I don't know what one you have, but if it's a VANOS car you need to shape up and get the right stuff in there. You don't want to know how many of those we sell parts for or what the cost is...

Kenny_McCormic wrote: The signal:noise ration on BITOG appears better than it really is, lots of guys playing armchair chemist. Keep that in mind. The two vehicles you describe would run forever on pretty much any API certified oil and not orange can filter on a 4-5k mile interval.

Very true on both points. I read the UOA's and articles on BITOG, not the forums. The 3800 is happy on any 10W30 oil, but I'm trying to slow down the oil consumption, seepage (replaced every gasket but the oil pan, and guess what leaks now...), and try to claw some fuel mileage out of it.

The EcoTec 2.2 had some timing chain teething issues, which is why I'm gun shy on that one, despite mine being a later-production "fixed" version.

Now you know why I roll my eyes whenever I read an oil thread, where the basis of everything is, "My Amsoil/Royal Purple/Whatever is perfect for everything!".

My 3800 uses oil as well. After changing the PCV valve and the 2 o-rings with it, it's using less oil now. Just something to check if you haven't done it already.

So, since this is an oil thread, whatreadily available oil still has a decent amount of zinc in it for flat tappet cams? Specifically older small block Chevy engine. Around 100k. Ive always been told to use rotella t in the closest viscosity to reccomended. Oil cap states 10-30, so that would be 15-40 rotella.

Or is this logic no longer valid?

Dusterbd13 wrote: So, since this is an oil thread, whatreadily available oil still has a decent amount of zinc in it for flat tappet cams? Specifically older small block Chevy engine. Around 100k. Ive always been told to use rotella t in the closest viscosity to reccomended. Oil cap states 10-30, so that would be 15-40 rotella. Or is this logic no longer valid?

No longer valid since the last API updates to the diesel oil blends. Valvoline VR1 racing oil is the last "widely available" oil with the proper amount of zinc and phosphorus for flat tappets. Up until ~2012 it was totally true, though.

81cpcamaro wrote: My 3800 uses oil as well. After changing the PCV valve and the 2 o-rings with it, it's using less oil now. Just something to check if you haven't done it already.

I have, but not in the last 15K. Cheap enough that it's worth trying again. Thanks for the reminder.

Re: BMW w/VANOS. I can't speak to the newer dual VANOS, but 1000's of M50/52, S50/52 engines with single VANOS lead very long hard lives with Rotella T and similar 'basic' oils. The VANOS really is a simple system, with most failures being a result of worn o-rings that can 'easily' be replaced (Google besian systems) I can't say the same for newer DI engines, and I know that late VW's are extremely sensitive to oil type...particularly diesels.

Javelin wrote: Your stuff is probably all fine except the BMW. I don't know what one you have, but if it's a VANOS car you need to shape up and get the right stuff in there. You don't want to know how many of those we sell parts for or what the cost is...

Javelin wrote:

Dusterbd13 wrote: So, since this is an oil thread, whatreadily available oil still has a decent amount of zinc in it for flat tappet cams? Specifically older small block Chevy engine. Around 100k. Ive always been told to use rotella t in the closest viscosity to reccomended. Oil cap states 10-30, so that would be 15-40 rotella. Or is this logic no longer valid?

No longer valid since the last API updates to the diesel oil blends. Valvoline VR1 racing oil is the last "widely available" oil with the proper amount of zinc and phosphorus for flat tappets. Up until ~2012 it was totally true, though.

if the "older small block Chevy" is new enough to have the oil weight on the cap (which means mid 80's and newer) and it still has the stock cam in in, you can run pretty much whatever oil you want in it. you can almost push the valves down by hand, and the max lift will be in the .400 range if it isn't already worn out. as long as it makes enough oil pressure to make the oil light go out, you are golden with whatever cheap stuff you want to dump into it.. i used the cheap farm oil from Mills Fleet Farm in my 87 GMC pickup, which i bought in 2 gallon jugs because it leaked a lot of oil from the front intake rail for something that showed no oil pressure on the gauge..

Diesel oil now sits at 800-900ppm last I heard, which is how much ZDDP was found to be needed back in the 60s when the whole wiped cam problem arose in V8 engines. Higher levels are/were not so much for antiwear, but as a cheap antioxidant/corrosion inhibitor IIRC.

Also, if you are really concerned M1 0w40 is still 1100ppm zinc, and 15w50 is 1300. http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

Javelin wrote: We all know that Ford motors, specifically the 4.6/5.4/5.0 Mod Motors, have to run 5W20 or massive issues will result (timing chain tensioners, etc). There are already multiple engines requiring 0W20, with 0W10 and 0W8 coming soon. We also know about a lot of factory specs that really mean something (VW 505.00/505.01, GM Dexos 1/Dexos 2, etc). With the CAFE standards the manufacturers have gotten really serious about it. You need to pay attention to what the factory requires!

more specifics please … what besides timing chain tensioners happens if I use the "wrong" oil

I have a '97 F150 4.6 with 120,000 miles … I put ~ 6kmi per yr on it …. and change the oil twice a yr

mostly I've been using Valvoline Max Life, 10w30 … is it fixing to explode on me ? I've been driving it for nearly 4 yrs like this

Javelin wrote: In reply to Toyman01: Your stuff is probably all fine except the BMW. I don't know what one you have, but if it's a VANOS car you need to shape up and get the right stuff in there. You don't want to know how many of those we sell parts for or what the cost is...

The BMW is a 85 635 E24. Pretty sure it can't even spell VANOS.

Pretty much everything I own is pre-2000 and most of it is pre-1990. The older stuff is more relaxing to tinker with and doesn't have ridiculous oil and tool requirements. Just new enough to have EFI.

Dusterbd13 wrote: So, since this is an oil thread, whatreadily available oil still has a decent amount of zinc in it for flat tappet cams? Specifically older small block Chevy engine. Around 100k. Ive always been told to use rotella t in the closest viscosity to reccomended. Oil cap states 10-30, so that would be 15-40 rotella. Or is this logic no longer valid?

Brad Penn grade 1, Joe Gibbs "Hot rod" oil, and Valvoline VR-1 are supposed to be good flat tappet cam oils due to high levels of zinc/phosphorous.

Funny, everytime one of these oil threads comes up I've said synthetic isn't really synthetic but rather it starts from the purest crude out of the barrel (simplified). It wasnt a sham to call it synthetic but now with so many blends they have started calling it "full synthetic" which is a bit misleading. To this point the real full synthetics have been by the small houses but as the manufacturers call for different better oils the oil companies have started stepping up their games also.

As an aside: who out on the oil clinic for you javelin?

Have done some reading on Joe Gibbs Driven racing oil and some of the things Shell works on with their F1 teams. Pretty amazing what these chemists have been able to accomplish in the past few years. Engine guys in the Sprint Cup series turn down their oil pressure to around 30 or so for qualifying. I can't picture a 900 hp, flat tappet cammed V-8 turning 9,000 rpm being able to survive, but it does and then they turn around and race it for 500 miles, after turning the pressure back up.

Guess I'll continue buying Motul

DaveEstey wrote: Guess I'll continue buying Motul

I'm with you. That's too confusing. Rotella in everything!

In reply to Kenny_McCormic:

If you have a 50's through a mid 70's motor with a stock cam, ~3000PPM was the minimum. Just adding a ZDDP as an additive doesn't work as the modern detergents in the API SM/SN oils will actually encapsulate the zinc and prevent it from protecting the metal from wear.

I use Castrol in everything I own, while SWMBO swears by Mobil 1 sythentic.Neither one of us have had engine issues with either oil, even though on more than one occasion, she has gone past her OCI by quite a few miles.

All of todays oils are amazing as are the engines.

My SO drove her 2010 Kia 14000 miles past the 7500 mile designated distance. 21500 miles. She has been driving a lot on a hectic work schedule and forgot. Her daughter discovered the oversite.