We need to talk oil...

Meh, I run Rotella T in all my engines from my briggs & stratton lawn mower to my dirt bike which sees 10k rpm every time i ride it. Imo proper change interval is much more important than the latest fancy oil. I can even be a little conservative with that interval when my oil costs only $10-12/gallon.

I used a lot of different oils in my 3800. It burned them all equally. So I just used whatever was cheap (Formula Shell mostly).

My dad uses VR1 or Defy in his 67 Mustang.

For my Mazada I use whatever 0w20 is on sale wherever I happen to be buying oil. Menards has sales on Valvoline a lot. Napa syn seems to work fine also. I've also used AutoZone syn with no problems. Those may be the same thing in different bottles though.

At work we use euro spec 0-40, 5-40 when required but the more common synthetics are just penzoil platinum. we carry 5-30 in standard and penzoils dexo's certified blends for gm products. My sundance gets 3.5qts of 10w30 valvoline and a qt of lucas. The wagon runs 5 qts of 15-40 rotella and my wifes s10 has 5w30 qs defy high mileage in it. since we drive mostly in town the oil is changed well before 3k miles aside from the s10. my vehicles fluids are checked often and changed when they get dark on the sundance i get about 2k miles out of an oil change, the wagon has had 3 oil changes in less then 2k miles but it sits for the winter and gets fresh oil before its put back on the road every spring.

Javelin wrote: In reply to Kenny_McCormic: If you have a 50's through a mid 70's motor with a stock cam, ~3000PPM was the minimum. Just adding a ZDDP as an additive doesn't work as the modern detergents in the API SM/SN oils will actually encapsulate the zinc and prevent it from protecting the metal from wear.

You mean 300 PPM?

At 3000 ppm (2000 actually) you'd see it start attacking the grain structure of the steel, resulting in spalling.

“at a ZDP level corresponding to 0.02% phosphorus, scuffing occurred at 200 pounds lifter load, while it required 240 and 480 pounds lifter load for oils containing 0.04 and 0.06% phosphorus, respectively, to initiate scuffing. At 0.08% phosphorus concentration, no scuffing occurred up to 600 pounds lifter load, the test hardware limit. Scuffing occurred at 350 pounds lifter load with no ZDP (0% phosphorus).”

-P.A. Bennett, “A look at the Effects of Lubricant Additives on Surfaces,” SAE pub. 580111, (January 1958)

In 27 years of driving I've used most of the different brands and types of oils. So far (knock wood) I have yet to experience an oil related failure, excessive wear, or sludge problem in anything.

I still follow a regular OCI according to manufacturers recommendation but I don't stress the brand.

For this who missed the story a while back. A friend of mine has a late '90 ford ranger with the 2.3 engine. He bought it used with 100K on the clock and drove it for 5 years. One day at about the five year and 200K mark he noticed that all his oil pressure went away while driving. He investigated to find that the oil filter body had RUSTED THROUGH from the outside. The oil and filter had not been changed in those 5 years. He screwed on a new filter and filled it back up with oil. He still doesn't change the oil and the truck is now at 285K miles. He claims oil changes are "overrated". YMMV

Here is my anecodotal evidence to ad to the pile ;)

My family has never had a single car burn oil, or engine asplode under our care. We have had a 1993 gmc to 320k kms, 1996 gmc to 550k kms, and a 2004 gmc which is almost at 500k kms. Synthetic in all of them since purchased (1993 was a family friend who always ran amsoil since new, the other two were company trucks bought at 160,000kms).

All have seen extensive towing use.

I use rotella in everything, especially now since they have their t6 available in 0-40w (instead of 5-40) which is awesome for our winters.IMO, you should run the thinnest oil possible (except in high rpm applications) as most wear in a motor happens on cold start. I run it in my Subaru's including the rallycar. The old school antilag washes down the oil significantly, my.eyes nearly bled from the vp109 fumes earlier this month when I did an oil change!

Now, with rotella t6, I do 20,000km oil changes. I feel justified in doing so for a number of reasons. One of those reasons is BITOG test in their brand new 2002 camaro ss back in the day. Using "crappy" mobil 1 synthetic, they went 20k+ miles without having to do an oil change. They did change filters though. I run a larger filter to compensate for the extended interval. Also, most modern cars have their "oil change countdowns", and all of oyr vehicles when using a synthetic are happy to go WELL past the scheduled interval.

The reason cars burn oil is it is STAGGERING how many people dont get it done, or poor manufacturing quality of the engine itself. Modern day oil, plus modern day engine tolerances, plus way less fuel contaminating oil equals ridiculous engine life.

If oil change intervals have been done properly, and a car/truck has seen mostly highway miles, 220k mile/300k km purchases dont scare me.anymore like they did a decade ago.

Swank Force One wrote:

DaveEstey wrote: Guess I'll continue buying Motul

I'm with you. That's too confusing. Rotella in everything!

Up until 2012ish I would have agreed with you. The newest spec diesel oils aren't anything great like that anymore.

In reply to wbjones:

Switch to 5W20 of the same brands and keep your fingers crossed. Your mileage is right in the starting window for those problems.

slowride wrote: For my Mazada I use whatever 0w20 is on sale wherever I happen to be buying oil. Menards has sales on Valvoline a lot. Napa syn seems to work fine also. I've also used AutoZone syn with no problems. Those may be the same thing in different bottles though.

Look at the back of the bottle. Valvoline synth is ACEA certified and is 100% synthetic, NAPA house brand is not and is only 28% synthetic. I don't know about Mazda, but I know Toyota has denied warranty coverage over it.

Mobile 1 with gold caps & "Extended Performance" on the bottle is still the good 100% stuff, right? I was thinking of going with that for my first change on the SX4 and running an annual change scheme. The oil filter on these is supposed to be awful to change because of location & nearby hardware.

Javelin wrote: In reply to wbjones: Switch to 5W20 of the same brands and keep your fingers crossed. Your mileage is right in the starting window for those problems.

thanks … will do

royal purple in the bmw. But I get a bit of a deal, so yea

These new engines really do care what oil is running through their veins. My 2013 Si requires 0w-20. There was zero 0w-20 to purchase on the island of Key West that wasn't from a dealer. So I threw Castol Syntech 5w-20 or whatever it's called now in there. I could tell a difference immediately. Almost like the engine was pushing through sludge. I even lost a few mpgs on the trip. Swapped back to 0w-20 once at my final destination and car seemed to be back to normal.

With my wife's 14 Subaru, not even going to mess around with that. Now that we are close to a Scoobie dealer it's going in for the free oil changes every 3k miles.

In reply to Javelin: My owner's manual only mentions using API-certified oils, so I think it will be OK. FWIW, the Mazda dealer's bulk synth is Castrol.

Javelin wrote: Up until 2012ish I would have agreed with you. The newest spec diesel oils aren't anything great like that anymore.

OP, I am curious as to who you are getting your info from. This guide was published in 2013 from API.

http://www.api.org/certification-programs/engine-oil-diesel-exhaust-fluid/~/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publications/MOM_GUIDE_ENGLISH_2013.pdf

I feel like you may have been "sold" to by an oil company.

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012/10/18/tech-101-zinc-in-oil-and-its-effects-on-older-engines/

The diesel specs have not changed since 2010, and the 2004 severe duty regulations are still in place and available:

http://www.api.org/certification-programs/engine-oil-diesel-exhaust-fluid/~/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publications/150917editionfinal.ashx

Right click, save as and changed .ashx to .pdf for viewing

In short, diesel oil with a CI-4 rating are still available, and have 1300ppm zinc, which is what motor manufacturers want for gasoline engine break ins. So wadunno. At the end of the day, in lower rpm, high stress situations, I'm sticking with diesel full synthetic.

Javelin wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

DaveEstey wrote: Guess I'll continue buying Motul

I'm with you. That's too confusing. Rotella in everything!

Up until 2012ish I would have agreed with you. The newest spec diesel oils aren't anything great like that anymore.

I'll worry about it when i blow a motor. (And the oils are still the same.)

I took a class on this subject a few years ago. It was enlightening. Besides that ACEA synthetics are the only true synthetics, not all 5w-30 (or whatever weight) oils are equal.

The Japanese and Domestic manufacturers want the specs for cold start. Europeans want it at high load/high heat. So an API 5w-30 can/will be different than an ACEA 5w-30.

ACEA specs are set by a 3rd party European organization, API standards are created by the people who manufacture it. Self regulation always ends well for the consumer

Javelin wrote: We all know that Ford motors, specifically the 4.6/5.4/5.0 Mod Motors, have to run 5W20 or massive issues will result (timing chain tensioners, etc).

LOL wut? Tell that to all the guys running thicker oil in their Coyotes. I run 5W30, others run 5W50 (factory viscosity for "track packs"), even 10W30 down south. I know several people who run 15W50 for track use.

Might have been an issue on the 4.6, but not the new 5.0.

Is synthetic oil any different than regular oil? Don't they come from the same place?

Javelin----- I wouldn't hold any ill will towards Mobil 1. They were selling a 100% synthetic product when another vendor started marketing a synthetic that really wasn't 100%. They took them to court-- and the court ruled that the competitor could continue selling the oil under a "synthetic" title. This is when Mobil 1 changed their formulation. IIRC.

If you are concerned with having very high quality oil-- -and want to support GRM / CMS advertisers (of course you do! ) Here's a few good choices---not all are 100% synthetic-- decide if that's important for your car before choosing:

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/

http://performanceracingoils.com/

http://www.Motul.com

http://www.redlineoil.com/

http://www.penngrade1.com/

.

Harry King (Performance Racing Oils) and Lake Speed Jr. (Driven Racing Oils) have both given non-biased oil seminars at our events---which were very informative. One more reason to come check out the Mitty / UTCC / Rolex / etc!

I've been running the store-brand "synthetic" (Yes, I know it's a blend), be it Walmart, Meier.... for hundreds of thousands of miles. Use a good filter. Change it regularly (~5k OCI's on the two cars, by the maintenance minder on the truck, ~7-9k.). Go on with life. The accent is still chugging along (Saw it again this past weekend) with close to 300k miles of that crap. The Elantra had 160+k miles. Truck is at 78k. Forte is at 54k. Old Grand Vitara was almost 100k, etc.

Don't cheap out on the filter, use some decent oil and change it. Soup.

Here's a link to an interesting episode of CarCast with Lake Speed Jr. discussing oil: http://carcastblog.adamcarolla.com/2012/07/synthetic-oil-with-lake-speed-jr-audi-r8/

Ok, I would like to know what you serious oil guys would recommend for a '93 mazda b2200 with 275k? I have been using 5W40, which is what's on the 710 cap. Is there something else I should consider? Max life oil opinions?

I've emailed both Harry King and Lake Speed Jr. and included a link to this thread in case they'd like to chime in.

Lake welcomes anyone who has oil questions to contact him directly: 704-239-4401 cell lspeed@drivenracingoil.com

Harry may chime in with a bit of insight.

Both of these guys have forgotten way more about oil than I'll ever know. They also tend to give good information without pushing their own products--- which is appreciated.

Joe Gearin wrote: Harry King (Performance Racing Oils)....

That would be me. Will try to address what I can really quickly. Forgive typos, I'll spare the details as to why. Anyway.....

There are 5 type of base stocks. Group I is essentially crude. Group II is essentially modern "conventional" oil. III is "fully" synthetic, but it is in reality a petroleum product. I'll get into this in a second. IV is PAO - Poly Alpha Olefin, a very prominent base stock in race oils with a very good temperature range. V is the ester family, of which there are a great many. They are less common in race oils, are very expensive, also have great temperature range. I'll digress or I'll be here all week.

If you want a really good article on this stuff, I'd suggest reading this document, from Race Engine Technology.

As to the "fully synthetic" versus "true" synthetic discussion. Joe is absolutely right. Castrol introduced "Syntec" in the late 90's, which was what we now called a Group III - a very highly refined petroleum product. Mobil 1, who was paying 2-3 times for PAO base stock, sued. Castrol prevailed with the argument that "it behaves very similarly, the customer doesn't know the difference." And at that point, virtually all street synthetics got switched over to Group III.

And if anyone here is concerned by that, and they are talking about a street car, don't be. They are very good oils. All of these OEM specifications you read about (LL01 229.51, Dexos, A40, etc.....) are specify a Group III. There is only one OEM spec which will involve any "true" synthetics. I forget which, but it is a VW spec that has an extremely low pour point that necessitates a little PAO.

Race oils are a VERY different discussion. If y'all want me to, I'll elaborate, but I didn't see anything on that when I scanned it.

On classics. In the mid 2000's (I think 2006, off of memory), the specs for oil put a cap on how much phosphorus could be in oils. ZDDP - Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate. That cap is 600ppm. How much is needed is the subject of some debate, and my honest assessment of that is that that is driven largely by marketing. ZDDP is think, honey like. Too much can cause drag, and most knowledgeable folks will say 1250-1300ppm is really the most you want. Most of the ones about which I know are in the 1000-1300ppm range, with a couple a little higher, and at least one that is twice that much. I think I saw a link earlier showing that really high levels are detrimental. So be careful with what you do if you are looking for a "high zinc" oil, or if you find yourself lured in by a fancy ad campaign.

As for what is out there. I know of a few. For street cars, you don't need to go out and buy a race oil. Furthermore, a number of race oils are very low on detergent packs, which will mean they need to be changed a lot more frequently. There seems to be a bifurcation with race oils. Some have very robust additive packs, some have very light ones. There are reasons I'll go into if there are questions, but from what I've seen, just take that as a caveat.

Back to what is there, you are seeing more stuff out there. Naturally, I'm going to suggest the Millers range of oils. We have a few options that all have optimized levels of ZDDP. Here's my company's Classic home page. We run ads in the Classic Motorsports print editions, as well, so you can find us there. But we use more advanced (i.e. modern) additive packs with period correct viscosities. The conventional is our "Classic Performance," which has 1100ppm Zinc. Classic Sport is a semi-synthetic. Classic High Performance is a fully synthetic. We don't have it on our site, but Millers has recently taken the nanotechnology from its race oils, and cascaded it to street oils, as well as a new Classic Performance 20w50 NT. We have some if anyone is interested, but I haven't gotten our web guy's attention long enough to have him add it.

On the Ford stuff, the mods specifically. I actually used to work on those. Did engine development for Ford for several years before relocating back to where the climate suits my coat. The 20 weight is relatively new. We were migrating to it when we were doing the early, early work on the 5.0L Coyote. The older 4.6's all used heavier oil. The tensioner failures alluded to weren't unique to Ford (and we've helped a professional race team solve a problem related to this thing, but that's confidential as they are sponsored by a competitor.......point is, it is an inherent risk with chain driven D/SOHC applications). The polymeric guides are eventually worn through, and if you ignore the noise, you'll eventually start grinding metal and then have a bigger problem. I think when the Mod was launched in the early 90's, it may have spec'd a 10w40, but it may have also used a roller chain rather than an NVH chain. They were all NVH chains by the time I got there.

Nowadays, the viscosity is a bit more important due to the VCT actuation system. THe 3V's had a positive oil pressure driven system, which wasn't as critical. Now, the current ones use a CTA - Cam Torque Actuation. Has channels with reed valves, so it essentially works like a ratchet. But it uses reserve oil, not positively fed stuff, and the oscillations of the cam. It is much more sensitive to oil viscosity. Interestingly, the Grand Am teams running the Boss derivatives designed to use 50 weight are running much thinner oil, so the feedback system is generally pretty good. But note that we also had to have a system that was robust to customer variation (fuel dilution, Bubba running 10w60, Leroy running WD40).

I'm not a fan of BITOG at all. I've seen guys post fake UOA's up there, as well as other things. Sad, it could be a good place.

Gotta run, will try to check back.