We should probably try to have a productive EV thread.

Xceler8x said:

 If you can't see the benefit of having EVs I don't care to explain it to you because you're choosing to be ignorant by not educating yourself with factual information.

 

Or you've looked into them and they don't work for you. For a suburban run about I think the are useful but for any given size they are heavy. I don't like heavy cars as daily drivers and EVs are heavy. 

 With that said the prototype Caterham E7 looks interesting to me but sadly they have now plans to bring it to market. 

In reply to Xceler8x :

I'm old enough to remember when fuel injection came out. If you asked the old or conservative heads you would've thought the sky was falling. It was the end of hotrodding and performance. You'd never be able to modify a car again because no one knows how to work on computers. The government will stop you because of emissions. Etc, doom, etc, destruction, free-dumbs gone, etc. 

We all know that didn't happen. This is the same conversation. If you can't see the benefit of having EVs I don't care to explain it to you because you're choosing to be ignorant by not educating yourself with factual information. Not hearsay. Not conspiracy theories. Not ridiculous ideas you choose to believe because you don't like people having choices you don't agree with. Also, give the strawman arguments a break. EVs are not about electrical infrastructure. They're not about loan terms. They're not about what your girlfriend's brother's cousin's uncle is doing. It's another car choice we can make. Another form of compelling performance. The side benefits are many. The disadvantages exist, will change, and become less of an issue as the technology matures.  

We are mostly ICE devotees and no one is coming to take that away. Your ICE car will be usable for our lifetimes. Change is the only constant. Choose to be scared of change if you like.  

Personally, I like ice cream. Whatever flavor you're into is ok with me. Let's enjoy ice cream together. Why be upset that you can now buy frozen yogurt?

Well it's good to hear that you are in for an open an honest discussion without any straw man arguments or ignorance. I'm assuming your post doesn't count? 

In reply to Xceler8x :

I'm old enough to remember when fuel injection came out. If you asked the old or conservative heads you would've thought the sky was falling. It was the end of hotrodding and performance. You'd never be able to modify a car again because no one knows how to work on computers. The government will stop you because of emissions. Etc, doom, etc, destruction, free-dumbs gone, etc. 

Also, you were not around when fuel injection came out. Which was in the '50's in gas engines. It took 40 years until it was widely adopted. There is a parallel here somewhere with EV's. 

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to Xceler8x :

I'm old enough to remember when fuel injection came out. If you asked the old or conservative heads you would've thought the sky was falling. It was the end of hotrodding and performance. You'd never be able to modify a car again because no one knows how to work on computers. The government will stop you because of emissions. Etc, doom, etc, destruction, free-dumbs gone, etc. 

Also, you were not around when fuel injection came out. Which was in the '50's in gas engines. It took 40 years until it was widely adopted. There is a parallel here somewhere with EV's. 

To be pedantic, I suspect he was talking about electronic fuel injection vs mechanical fuel injection (hence the mention of computers).

In reply to z31maniac :

Yes, but my point is that was not the start of fuel injection. It took decades of advancement before fuel injection replaced carburetors, and adoption was slow. Once technology allowed fuel injection to better carburation in almost every measurable way, it took over. Sure there were some that were reluctant, but they were the vast minority and almost all of them were won over when fuel injecton was shown to be demonstatively superior. I'd see the advances that led to electronic fuel injection as similar to an advanced battery technology that is not yet available. If we were offered affordable EV's with solid state batteries that charged in minutes and people were saying that was not good enough, that would be comparable to the naysayers of EFI. Comparing them to people who call out the actual shortcoming of current EV's is a poor comparison. 

frenchyd said:

    Cost?  The average new car today is $38,800.  That is more than the cost of a model 3 or model Y even if your state doesn't give anything else. 
    $2500, 5,000,  7500 are what some states offer. 
   

The cheapest Model Y is still over $40k even if you get the full $7500 federal tax credit ($47,740 starting MSRP).

So how's that productive discussion going now?  Human nature is human nature, and it's impossible to change.  
 

I see this thread is headed in the same direction.

EVs still win in the end.  The only unanswered question is how painful will the transition be? 

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Thank you.

Your reply was helpful and informative.

Xceler8x said:

I'm old enough to remember when fuel injection came out. If you asked the old or conservative heads you would've thought the sky was falling. It was the end of hotrodding and performance. You'd never be able to modify a car again because no one knows how to work on computers. The government will stop you because of emissions. Etc, doom, etc, destruction, free-dumbs gone, etc. 

We all know that didn't happen. This is the same conversation. If you can't see the benefit of having EVs I don't care to explain it to you because you're choosing to be ignorant by not educating yourself with factual information. Not hearsay. Not conspiracy theories. Not ridiculous ideas you choose to believe because you don't like people having choices you don't agree with. Also, give the strawman arguments a break. EVs are not about electrical infrastructure. They're not about loan terms. They're not about what your girlfriend's brother's cousin's uncle is doing. It's another car choice we can make. Another form of compelling performance. The side benefits are many. The disadvantages exist, will change, and become less of an issue as the technology matures.  

We are mostly ICE devotees and no one is coming to take that away. Your ICE car will be usable for our lifetimes. Change is the only constant. Choose to be scared of change if you like.  

Personally, I like ice cream. Whatever flavor you're into is ok with me. Let's enjoy ice cream together. Why be upset that you can now buy frozen yogurt?

 

Good points.  
   Except a lot of us who were playing with sprint cars in the 1950's Hilborn mechanical fuel injection was on every Offy  engine and when Chevy's replaced the Offenhauser it was on every one of them.    
  Dragsters too enjoyed mechanical Fuel injection.   Maybe not in the lower classes  but fuel?   You bet!   
Then  Chevy brought its mechanical fuel injection out in 1957. If you had ever worked on a Hilborn injection system the Corvette injection was simple.  
there for the longest time you could pick up a Corvette Injection system  for chump change.  Until the collectors got involved.  
      There always was a cadre of guys who understood Fuel injection and  knew how to use it.  
    EFI?   Same dance different song.    Once you wrap your head around working with a key board instead of a wrench,  they work the same.  
   There are actually a lot more who can work with EFI. Than carbs or mechanical injection.  
  By now carbs and Mechanical are old school,  limited to old geezers like me. 
 

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to z31maniac :

Yes, but my point is that was not the start of fuel injection. It took decades of advancement before fuel injection replaced carburetors, and adoption was slow. Once technology allowed fuel injection to better carburation in almost every measurable way, it took over. Sure there were some that were reluctant, but they were the vast minority and almost all of them were won over when fuel injecton was shown to be demonstatively superior. I'd see the advances that led to electronic fuel injection as similar to an advanced battery technology that is not yet available. If we were offered affordable EV's with solid state batteries that charged in minutes and people were saying that was not good enough, that would be comparable to the naysayers of EFI. Comparing them to people who call out the actual shortcoming of current EV's is a poor comparison. 

Yes, but my point was you were purposely taking what he said out of context to discredit what he was saying. 

Either way, I'm out. Like I mentioned in the EV thread, everything on this forum lately seems to be devolving into snark and being E36 M3ty to each other. 

chaparral said:

All right. Tomorrow I pick up my new 2023 Model 3, RWD, red with white interior. MSRP was $44380, discounted by $3460 to $40920. The car gets a $7500 Federal tax credit and a $2000 California rebate. I wanted a 48 month loan, so I financed it over 60 and will use the federal tax credit to pay off one year's worth of principal. 

 

I think this is the least expensive RWD sedan you can buy, slightly cheaper than a Charger V6. Tesla doesn't split out RWD from AWD cars in its sales figures, but it is the best-selling RWD passenger car in the USA right now by a big margin. 

Hell yeah dude! I've heard the RWDs are cloud like since they're so much lighter than the performance/AWD models. Post pics!

Tom1200 said:

Xceler8x said:

 If you can't see the benefit of having EVs I don't care to explain it to you because you're choosing to be ignorant by not educating yourself with factual information.

 

Or you've looked into them and they don't work for you. For a suburban run about I think the are useful but for any given size they are heavy. I don't like heavy cars as daily drivers and EVs are heavy. 

 With that said the prototype Caterham E7 looks interesting to me but sadly they have now plans to bring it to market. 

Some techs that make small EVs possible were also conversely, only feasible with this style of mass adoption. For example, you can buy heat pumps now for boats that run 12 volts that just didn't exist in 2008, and Aptera has said openly that there's tons of manufacturing that they can take advantage of now that they had no access to back in 2008 beyond "Make it yourself" concepts.

z31maniac said:

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to Xceler8x :

I'm old enough to remember when fuel injection came out. If you asked the old or conservative heads you would've thought the sky was falling. It was the end of hotrodding and performance. You'd never be able to modify a car again because no one knows how to work on computers. The government will stop you because of emissions. Etc, doom, etc, destruction, free-dumbs gone, etc. 

Also, you were not around when fuel injection came out. Which was in the '50's in gas engines. It took 40 years until it was widely adopted. There is a parallel here somewhere with EV's. 

To be pedantic, I suspect he was talking about electronic fuel injection vs mechanical fuel injection (hence the mention of computers).

Electronic injection in passenger cars debuted in 1958, mechanical FI in spark ignition cars was a few decades earlier (Mercedes in the 1930s, IIRC).

Point still stands, though.

(And IIRC there is still at least one '58 DeSoto or Chrysler that retains its fuel injection.  Timed solenoid type injectors, was similar enough to Bosch D-jet that I wouldn't doubt if Bosch didn't buy the system from Ma Mopar and refine it)

In reply to z31maniac :

Yes, but my point was you were purposely taking what he said out of context to discredit what he was saying. 

Either way, I'm out. Like I mentioned in the EV thread, everything on this forum lately seems to be devolving into snark and being E36 M3ty to each other. 
 

I didn't take his post out of context, I put it into context. He was comparing the evolution of EV's to the evolution of fuel injection, equating people who are unconvinced that EV's are ready to replace ICE with those that were unconvinced that EFI was ready to replace carburetors. That is a flawed comparison, and I pointed it out. I'm not sure why you are calling me out for snark and being E36 M3ty. If rebutting false statements with facts makes me E36 M3ty, I guess I'm guilty as charged. I feel that I took the high road in my response to a post filled with name calling, accusations, and political attacks. Sure I could have just ignored it, just like you could have ignored my post. 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

I';m giving up on providing facts to counter the false propoganda constantly repeated here lately. berkeley it. They want to live in a world of make believe so be it.

bobzilla said:

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

I';m giving up on providing facts to counter the false propoganda constantly repeated here lately. 

Would you prefer true propoganda? (forgive me I couldn't help it).

We do seem to be a bit entrenched of late.

In reply to bobzilla :

There are a lot of benefits to EV's, they have some huge strengths over ICE, and lots of potential. But I don't understand the desire of some to just handwave away the negatives, or shout down those that point out shortcoming that prevent more widespread adoption. We can argue all we want about what we think should be, but in the end we all get to vote with our dollars, and right now people are voting for ICE. The Jalopnik article linked above showed exactly what I've been saying in previous threads. The leap between early adopters and the average car buyer will slow down adoption, pending technical advancements that would broaden appeal. 
 

I'm glad there are lots of EV offerings that work out for some people. I'm happy there are choices that meet their priorities. There are all kinds of ICE choices that are great fits for some, but don't make sense for others. Reference the recent pickup thread. 
 

The "for or against" vibe of these EV threads bothers me. It appears that proponents of EV's frequently label those that are unconvinced as "against." The earlier poster that I responded to went as far as to name call. EV's are progressing. They may get to the point where battery and charging tech erases all concerns, and even the most skeptical are ready to adopt. Or advancement may hit a wall, and EV, ICE, hybrid choices will all remain relevant. 
 

How many people here actually have an EV or a PHEV?  If no, maybe consider backing the aggressiveness down a bit until you have some first hand experience.  

I have a PHEV in the fleet, rented 2x PHEVs for extended durations, and rented 1x true EV for a week and would be happy to have thoughtful discussions about EV and PHEV based strictly on my real-world experience.  This mudslinging and annecdotalizing from folks with no experience is a little preskoolish.  

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to bobzilla :

There are a lot of benefits to EV's, they have some huge strengths over ICE, and lots of potential. But I don't understand the desire of some to just handwave away the negatives, or shout down those that point out shortcoming that prevent more widespread adoption. We can argue all we want about what we think should be, but in the end we all get to vote with our dollars, and right now people are voting for ICE. The Jalopnik article linked above showed exactly what I've been saying in previous threads. The leap between early adopters and the average car buyer will slow down adoption, pending technical advancements that would broaden appeal. 
 

I'm glad there are lots of EV offerings that work out for some people. I'm happy there are choices that meet their priorities. There are all kinds of ICE choices that are great fits for some, but don't make sense for others. Reference the recent pickup thread. 
 

The "for or against" vibe of these EV threads bothers me. It appears that proponents of EV's frequently label those that are unconvinced as "against." The earlier poster that I responded to went as far as to name call. EV's are progressing. They may get to the point where battery and charging tech erases all concerns, and even the most skeptical are ready to adopt. Or advancement may hit a wall, and EV, ICE, hybrid choices will all remain relevant. 
 

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not against. It's just not the right fit for us at this time for a plethora of reasons. If it works for someone else that's great. 

Tom1200 said:

bobzilla said:

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

I';m giving up on providing facts to counter the false propoganda constantly repeated here lately. 

Would you prefer true propoganda? (forgive me I couldn't help it).

We do seem to be a bit entrenched of late.

Not even entrenched but taking things binary. Either or. For or against but the reality is that's not true. More people are of the mindset that they will be great at some point, just not for them at this point. There are the fringes of "never going to own one of those toys" to the evangelic "everyone has to have one" on both ends but I think we are more in the middle. Sadly that's not how our society is allowed to work now. 

And yes, I'd at least like true propoganda. Then it's not spreading lies and disinformation to get repeated until people believe them. 

frenchyd said:

STM317 said:

frenchyd said:

    Cost?  The average new car today is $38,800.  That is more than the cost of a model 3 or model Y even if your state doesn't give anything else. 
    $2500, 5,000,  7500 are what some states offer. 
   

The cheapest Model Y is still over $40k even if you get the full $7500 federal tax credit ($47,740 starting MSRP).

How often do you check Tesla prices?   
  You will find that price go up and down, depending on market forces.  

Sounds like a recipe for unexpected depreciation to me! 

In reply to 93gsxturbo :

How many people here actually have an EV or a PHEV?  If no, maybe consider backing the aggressiveness down a bit until you have some first hand experience.  

I have a PHEV in the fleet, rented 2x PHEVs for extended durations, and rented 1x true EV for a week and would be happy to have thoughtful discussions about EV and PHEV based strictly on my real-world experience.  This mudslinging and annecdotalizing from folks with no experience is a little preskoolish.  
 

I don't think there should be mudslinging, period. It appears that some believe that owning an EV (or thinking about owning an EV) is a license to mudsling, and there has been reciprocation, which isn't productive either. I also don't think owning an EV should be a prerequisite to having this discussion. I don't own an EV. I was close to buying a Lighting, at the dealer, cash in hand. My wife turned down a free Bolt for a company car. I turned down a Silverado EV, and then turned down a like replacement for my company Malibu while waiting for the rumored Model 3 to join my company fleet next cycle. I can do research and math. I work  in electrical distribution, EV charging, and battery storage. Do I get to participate? 
 

I do think that hybrids and PHEV's are the best solutions for most out of the options that are currently available. That doesn't mean the EV's aren't the best solutions for some or that pure ICE doesn't have a place. 

Anyone wanna talk about EV conversions? Johannes Hübner from OpenInverter is the co-author of a book-format conversion guide which came out in July.  $35 for the .pdf, available at website or thru the OpenInverter store.  Here's a link to the DIYElectricCar forum discussion more-or-less about the book.

I bought the .pdf and I'd say it is a comprehensive quick-start guide to EV conversion using 'modern' parts.  Nothing at all about DC forklift motors and lead-acid batteries.  The details are mostly based on a project to convert a Volvo 850 using a 1st gen Leaf donor, but easily 80% of the book is going to apply to any conversion.  Buying the book is going to be faster, easier, and give you less toxic exposure compared to starting from zero knowledge and trying to learn everything using only online forums and YT vids.  (No affiliate links and I'm not getting paid to hype up the book.).  If you are extremely cheap and highly motivated, then skip the book and slog thru all the 'free' info online.  If you have a few extra $ and want to support people doing open-source work, then buy the book even if you don't want to build an EV.  <unnecessary sardonic comment deleted>.

In reply to Oapfu :

I love the idea of EV conversions for some vehicles. For me, there are lots of cool 80's cars that cannot easily be modified and still meet strict CA smog requirements. I could easily see a EV converted Mitsu Starion, it even looks the part. A wide body with fat tires and tons of electric torque. I think the Starion in the Cannonball Run movie even make EV like noises.