I think that might be a function of demand outstripping production, which was a big thing across the automotive market for 2022 coming out of the pandemic. There is a LOT of additional battery production coming online in the near term. Time will tell, but there's a good case that 2022 may just be a blip.
In reply to Apexcarver :
I'm sure it is. As production ramps up, the prices will come down.
Though I'm not sure where the Charleston plant is going to find workers. The new Volvo plant is offering $25k signing bonuses for maintenance workers. That makes them pretty hard to compete with.
A lot of people criticize EVs as if development is static. But technology is actually rumbling along at a remarkable pace. With the exception of a few hiccups like GMs EV1, as of 2007 EVs were still primarily the domain of geeks and dreamers. Then in 15 years, largely due to the efforts of a man whom it is popular to deride, they've become amazing and increasingly common. There will always be one issue or another, but there's also very good reasons to expect workarounds for those issues. Love my dino burners, but also love EVs.
Increasingly common is no joke, figures I have seen quoted at that EV's as a percentage of new car sales is in the neighborhood of 6%, so a bit more than 1 in 20 of new cars on the road...
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:A lot of people criticize EVs as if development is static. But technology is actually rumbling along at a remarkable pace. With the exception of a few hiccups like GMs EV1, as of 2007 EVs were still primarily the domain of geeks and dreamers. Then in 15 years, largely due to the efforts of a man whom it is popular to deride, they've become amazing and increasingly common. There will always be one issue or another, but there's also very good reasons to expect workarounds for those issues. Love my dino burners, but also love EVs.
This is why I said EVs will win multiple times in the now locked thread. People and tech can do most anything.
In reply to Toyman! :
The 300K number is based on input from the Tesla folks on vehicles they are getting in on warranty for battery replacements as that is the point when the range has dropped below 70% of new. Will see what I can hunt down for you as that is what I'm getting directly from my Tesla engineering folks.
Wondering if anyone has seen Fisker's new range of electric cars. I'm interested in the Alaska pickup.
Toyman! said:In reply to Tom Suddard :
That's fairly reasonable but it takes 16 of them to build a Model S battery pack. Call it $8500. That's not that good of a bargain for a used battery which is only as good as its weakest cell.
Actually, the S pack had a total refresh in ~2018-202 or so for the Plaid; it's groups of 5 individual packs now, here's a shot from Munroe.
One one hand, you won't be easily able to mix and match cells from working battery packs because they kept playing with chemistries; on the other hand, the Model S hasn't had major changes in body or mounting since it's inception and the pack's dimensions are still the same, so I don't yet see any reason why you couldn't modify an old S with this new pack successfully.
Tesla has been known to put larger / later battery packs in older cars when the older packs are no longer available as a replacement.
Tesla also offers in-house upgrades for Roadsters, it's a pretty cool program. Also promises ongoing support.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/roadster-30
In reply to mr2peak :
That memo is dated from 2014. I wonder if they still provide support and upgrades nine years later.
mblommel said:Wondering if anyone has seen Fisker's new range of electric cars. I'm interested in the Alaska pickup.
At first I was happy to see they plan on offering a sport car, but then I read that it will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. It is good they will have an economical small car, even though it's not very attractive.
In reply to stuart in mn :
The last update for the Roadster I know of was in 2019, when they provided upgrade kits for the charging system and a replacement router for the 3G sunsetting. Supposedly they'll have dedicated techs.
In reply to stuart in mn :
Yeah it's very "European". Reminds me of something Citroën would offer, but thats not necessarily a bad thing.
mblommel said:Wondering if anyone has seen Fisker's new range of electric cars. I'm interested in the Alaska pickup.
You have my attention.
If you live n California. And take advantage of all the rebates, discounts, and tax credits available you can buy a brand new Model 3 Tesla for $14,000
Yes, you have to be in a pretty unique situation but it is possible and one owner has done it.
Part of the deal involves taking advantage of in inventory discounts. Instead of paying $40,200 , he found one at $37,120 . Getting the $500 referral discount. The $7500 state and $7500 federal tax credit. The $4000 clean cars for all program , the $5000 coastal clean air, and others.
Yes there is delivery charge and tax and labor license etc. go on the Tesla Web site for more information. I suppose the details are spelled out on California's site.
SV reX said:mblommel said:Wondering if anyone has seen Fisker's new range of electric cars. I'm interested in the Alaska pickup.
You have my attention.
The thing I keep coming back to is the leap of faith on a startup company. Will they be around in even 5 years to support the vehicle?
In reply to Apexcarver :
Definitely a good question, although the same thing could have been said about Tesla only a few years ago. I think one thing Fisker has going for it is Magna Steyr is reportedly building them so the quality should be at least as good as the Porsches, BMWs and Mercedes Benzes they crank out.
The original Model S batteries were rated for 800 full charge - discharge cycles. Most of the ones that have gotten to that mileage have lasted that long or a bit longer; most customers got 200k-300k miles before they degraded by more than 15%. Model 3 packs, when introduced, were rated for 1250 cycles. I'd like to see if commercial users of early cars have gotten the 400k miles that indicates. If they last that long, we won't be rebuilding battery packs for most vehicles, as it's the same situation for an ICEV where there are more good engines available out of crashed cars than cars out of warranty that need them. LiFePO4 packs effectively eliminate the charge-cycle limitation as they're rated for 5000-7000 cycles. What we don't know about them is how well they'll age - the high-energy-density LiFePO4 cells haven't existed for 20 years so there's no indication yet whether they'll last 300k miles if the car takes 20 years to do it.
Tesla called my bluff when I told them I'd take a Model 3 when they could get me one for $30k out the door with CA rebates; I'm picking up my RWD 3 in a week.
In reply to chaparral :
Have you ever been to Kettleman California's Supercharger station?
Wow!! If all of the Tesla Supercharger's were like that, no Tesla owner would ever worry about range anxiety again. Massive number of chargers, both Version 2 for older cars and version 3. Overhead awnings, clean, neat bathrooms, Food, beverages, rest areas, sales of Tesla Apparel, displays of Tesla power wall,
Be a nice place to spend 20 minutes.
Random question (as a non-EV owner that has not done any research) - If an EV runs out of juice on the road, is the only current solution to tow/flatbed to a charger or are there mobile charging units (AAA?) in development to boost you enough to get you to charger?
I've been driving a 2013 Chevy Volt for 8 years. I contributed 115k of the 144k mills on the car.
The car has not been without flaws or faults, but it's been quite good overall. There were a couple warranty and TSB issues addressed in the first couple years I had the car, which is probably to be expected for the 3rd model year of an entirely new vehicle platform.
The majority of the repairs not covered under warranty have been for things likely needed at similar age or mileage on an ICE car: suspension parts, CV axles, wheel bearings, drivetrain mounts, leaking radiator, etc. I did replace the charge socket after the conformal coating failed. That was about $90 and 30 minutes of effort in the garage.
I have done oil changes in the range extending engine about every 40k miles. The original pads and rotors of the friction brake system are still good; the regen braking is extremely effective.
There are first gen Volts out there running around with 300k miles or more, and at least one example with more than 500k. Making a battery last that long requires excellent engineering and keeping the battery in its optimal parameters as much as possible. As mentioned a battery pack is only as good as its weakest cells. In most EVs those could be repaired if individual cells start failing. But the competence and skill needed to safely do that work is far from widespread at this point.
As far as whether EVs will achieve classic status really depends on the intrinsic desirability of the cars. The McMurtry Spéirling is a highly exciting car; I would love to lap one around a track! A base Tesla Model 3 is a decent car, but classic ownership will likely be for sentimental reasons like I would expect of a Camry or Accord.
I think the single biggest hurdle for longevity in contemporary cars is not unique to EVs. The infotainment, HVAC, and advanced safety systems are pinned to the hardware with which they rolled off the assembly line. Some manufacturers provide software support, but for how long? With these systems not being modular and standardized (like the DIN radio sizing) they are likely to compromise the ownership experience long before major mechanical failure does.
In reply to Old_Town :
It depends on where you live. This question came up in another thread and after some digging it looks like there are companies offering that service.
Old_Town said:Random question (as a non-EV owner that has not done any research) - If an EV runs out of juice on the road, is the only current solution to tow/flatbed to a charger or are there mobile charging units (AAA?) in development to boost you enough to get you to charger?
I think there is enough range anxiety that most people don't really treat EV's like ICE's .
In other words they drive for several hours and then top off. Recharging in the 80%-20% range is the fastest area to recharge in. Tesla says that 15 minutes will add another 150 miles ( 200 with a series 4 and big enough battery pack)
However , Just like an ICE car that runs completely out of gas. You either get hauled in or serviced on the side of the road.
But, any downhill will help recharge the batteries and unlike ICE cars when you are going extremely slow the transmission doesn't downshift into lower and lower gears compounding fuel consumption.
You just use less energy going slow.
My neighbor ( with a Tesla) tells me he went several miles when the range was at zero. It slows down to 40 mph just before that happens.
The good news is the "instrument" tells you not only how much range you have left but also where the nearest chargers are at, distance and charging speed (Series 2/3/4 ) the newest charges the fastest but not any faster than the batteries can accept it. I don't know if you can set an audible warning or not.
But not all of them. For example free chargers you need a app on your phone to find those. There is also an app that rates and grades all the charging stations by number of operating chargers, how many are in use, charging speed, and amenities.
I don't know anything other than the Tesla's I've ridden in and owners I've talked to. I haven't ridden in the Chevy Bolt or Ford Lightening. There is a Lawyer nearby with a Lucian? But he's not sociable.
In reply to frenchyd :
That's a lot of words to not answer his question.
frenchyd said:If you live n California. And take advantage of all the rebates, discounts, and tax credits available you can buy a brand new Model 3 Tesla for $14,000
Yes, you have to be in a pretty unique situation but it is possible and one owner has done it.
Part of the deal involves taking advantage of in inventory discounts. Instead of paying $40,200 , he found one at $37,120 . Getting the $500 referral discount. The $7500 state and $7500 federal tax credit. The $4000 clean cars for all program , the $5000 coastal clean air, and others.
Yes there is delivery charge and tax and labor license etc. go on the Tesla Web site for more information. I suppose the details are spelled out on California's site.
Stop already. This has already been debunked. I'd provide the link yet again but you'd still ignore it and still keep spouting the bullE36 M3 propoganda you made up in your head.
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