Weight vs Driven Wheels for fun and car control

I'm currently looking at a couple cars and trying to decide which road to go down. I really like lightweight, analog cars like most of us on here so my immediate thought was Miata, but my parents nixed that idea. No miatas they said. So I'm now relegated to a world of heavier cars. I definitely want something light and stick and refuse to go FWD but I am wondering about the merits of a heavier RWD platform - like an e46 bimmer or Lexus IS300 versus a lighter AWD platform (particularly when it doesn't have a sporty torque split) like a first or second gen impreza. I want something that will be fun to drive, but I can also do some autocrossing and car control with. I have read that a lot of econobox AWD (like 1st gen imprezas or even audi TT) cars tend to understeer like fwd cars because they don't send power to the rear wheels until losing traction in the front. So what are y'all's thoughts on weight, driven wheels, power split in AWD, and fun?

Also, anyone got any suggestions for cheaper cars that fit in this category? looking at 1st and 2nd gen imprezas, is 300, e36 and e46 3 series, maybe the DSM trio 

I started out autocrossing an E46 325i sport package with a manual.

It served me very well and while it was not competitive compared to a 330i or M3, it handled dozens of autocrosses with no trouble at all.

With the stick it had enough power to be enjoyable while still making me do my best to keep momentum up.  In handling it was decently responsive and pretty forgiving. A great learning car.

E46s are getting old and manuals are a bit scarce, but there are still well-maintained examples to be had. In 100,000 miles (I bought used) I never really had to do any expensive fixes.

Good luck!

In reply to Evanuel9 :

It's possible to chuck AWD hatches around on an autocross like a rally car.

It comes down to car control.......something you want to learn.

I personally love light cars. The bigger cars will go through tires more quickly.

I would find a light fun to drive car and don't worry about whether it's AWD, RWD or RWD.

I'm guessing they want you to drive something that might stand up to an impact with a common American jumbo-pickup better than a Miata.

AWD or RWD could both be good options in terms of performance, but I think you might learn faster and easier with RWD since AWD handling is not so intuitive. A car with less weight and less driven axles will be cheaper to run as well. Some slightly beefier RWD options that might satisfy your parents could be a BMW E36 or E46, a Lexus IS200/Toyota Altezza, maybe a Toyobaru (super-modern Subaru safety!) although they're relatively costly up front and the engines need about $1k in mods to survive track days. Also they are incredibly costly to insure (ask me how I know...)

If you want to go AWD look at what Imprezas you can afford but keep in mind that their engines can be very fragile and troublesome especially when modded, DSMs are pretty troublesome as well and parts are getting hard to find. Maybe also see if there's an AWD Ford Focus or VW Golf you can stretch the budget for.

But for low cost, learning potential, and the better options available, I'd recommend looking at RWD for this car.

Honestly, don't overlook little FWD hatchbacks. I'd probably take one of those over a generic AWD for 'fun' driving.

I think the closest thing you'll find to a Miata that might satisfy your parents is a Mazda 2. Miata weight. Miata power. Mazda 'zoom zoom' handling. 

Alternatively, can you find any Fiesta ST, 500 Abarth, or Cooper S in your price range?

FWD apologist here. Not all are created equal. I'm partial old Swedish things and Hondas because of the  engine placement and relatively even weight distribution. You drive it differently than rwd or awd, but the engineering principle isn't necessarily worse. 

I own a Miata which is a dedicated autocross car. I daily a civic, which also gets used for autocross plus track work. The civic is great fun. 

 

I currently drive an ND Miata and an R53 Cooper S. Both are good at their intended function. At the limit they are different driving styles, but the other 99.99% of the time they're both equally fun cars. For my use, if I had to cut down to only one, it would be the MINI, but I'm 71.

RWD is more fun. No argument. But your choices are pretty limited these days. I would not recommend an E46 or newer BMW for a 'new' driver because the maintenance costs can be pretty awful. Maybe go back to an E36; much simpler and cheaper parts. 

AWD is much more difficult to learn to drive well. I'm reasonably talented as a driver (I'm also a licensed instructor) and found my wife's old 2.2 Impreza to be challenging, even on gravel. Getting it to turn in was either a complete Colin McRae success or utter failure. There was no in-between with that car. 

I spent years driving FWD cars and loving them. CRX, Mk1 Fiestas, Audi GT and others. If you learn the techniques to make them pivot into turns (weight transfer, left foot braking, trail braking) they can be a lot of fun and can be quicker through the turns in certain situations. It's just learning a different skill set, much like driving a rear engine car is (but not the same techniques!). I would not dismiss them, especially for a beginner.

Where FWD starts to show it's limitations, IMO, is when you get into higher power cars. Light, nimble, momentum cars are great for FWD. Higher powered cars will reach a  point where they struggle to retain inside wheel traction and just smoke the tire, or will require a LSD that few cars come from the factory with.

My move to RWD cars admittedly made driving on the track much more fun, but by then I was going much faster, having arguably outgrown most FWD cars. I still have no desire to go the AWD path.

I agree that RWD is funner, but not by much.  For someone looking to really learn vehicle dynamics, I agree that RWD is a good place to start.  I also have to say as a very amateur autocrosser having driven all three types around the cones, I wouldn't base my choice on just which wheels are driven.  I think the engineering of the car is more important.

RWD, stick, and handles well will limit you a bit.  Some of the VW/Audi offerings might get you there while emptying your wallet on dumb repairs, as would an E46.

How old are you willing to go?  Fox body 5.0L old?  That will at least teach you how to not do a 360 into a crowd of car show guests.

In reply to Duke :

Thanks!! I've heard e46s are a lot more of a cruiser or GT car, especially compared to the e36s and other sporty cars. Has this been your experience? 

Out of curiosity, in terms of maintenance and fixes how has it compared to your common econobox. I can do my own work for most stuff but curious about parts

In reply to Tom1200 :

I also love light cars. I haven't driven very many cars, and my main daily driver has been my mom's 2+ ton hybrid, cvt SUV which is soul crushing so I really want something different, fun, and good to learn car control in. 

Any non-moata suggestions? I've also considered an abarth 500 and crx despite being FWD

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Pretty much - their reasoning is that it's too small, unsafe, and built for weekend to in nice weather. 

Can't afford a toyobaru lol that was my next idea after the Miata but I am looking at e36s and 46 and an is300 I found which is the only manual is300 I've seen in a month of looking lol. These are heavier though than some of my awd or fwd options like imprezas, crx, 500 abarth, etc which is why I'm questioning. 

I've heard nasty things about the dam trio too so I was hesitant. In terms of imprezas - if you don't do much engine modification are they still unreliable? My other question is do you know anything about the torque split. I've read that they're 50/50 100% of the time but I've also read that they're fwd until they lose front grip. If I'm gonna go awd I don't see the point of a mostly fwd car lol. 

Definitely prefer rwd but not sure what I can find thats rwd, lightweight, and in budget

In reply to Driven5 :

Mazda 2s are cool lol but they do seem very econoboxy compared to something like a fit. thoughts on that?

In terms of fwd my reasoning is that younger age is when the brain is most malleable and if I get something without the fwd quirks - I'll be better able to build the skills for properly driving high power rwd cars later on - because I will have built them at a younger age. This might be dumb but that's my reasoning. Plus the fun factor

I have found a 500 abarth and a mini in my price range but the mini seems remarkably heavy for what it is. 

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

That looks like a good time!!

Have you noticed the civic causing any bad habits or affecting your skill with rwd? 

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

I want an ND so bad but unfortunately they're out of my budget. glad to hear that they're equally fun and I won't be disappointed in fwd. 

Though I am young and more happy with unpleasantries than I might be were I older. 

In reply to ddavidv :

Yeah my parents didn't love the e46s idea either - but they didn't veto it out of hand like the Miata. E36s are ok and I am looking for a 318ti but it's hard to find them in stick, in budget, and without significant rust in my area. 

I would definitely prefer rwd over awd but it seems like if I go rwd I'd have to compromise in weight - hence my dilemma. 

Did the fwd skill set transfer easily to rwd? Was it quick or easy to adapt to? Thoughts on the crx? I am considering one.

Is torque steer relevant in fwd cars with lower power?

Thanks!

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I definitely want rwd but my dilemma is that going rwd, unless it's a Miata, will mean more weight over an early Impreza and so I'm trying to decide which factor is more important if that makes sense. I'm definitely open to fwd cars but my logic is that if I have the option, id prefer rwd.

In terms of other offerings I have looked at some vw/audi stuff. Specifically b5 a4 and s4, plus other German stuff like e36s and 46. 

Definitely down for a foxbody though I get the feeling my parents would see the word mustang and immediately say no lol.

I think the imprezas are different depending on trans. IIRC the manual ones are 50/50 in the center diff but the auto ones are 90/10 (to the front). Maybe they get better when you lose traction in the front somehow, I dont remember. 

However, I agree that they may not be a ton of fun, I think people like subarus because of the turbos.

e36 is a great car depending on where you live. If there are still many around you then great, but by now most are beat to oblivion. e36 parts will also be coming from the mail, rather than available locally when you need them, so keep that in mind too. I wouldn't shy away from e46, and the is300 will be a great car as well but the manual trans ones are sort of unicorns. Parts for the MT stuff might be hard to find. 

I'll echo the others here that FWD can be quite fun too.

If I were currently looking for a car that was for a combo of fun/transportation to school and work/could carry reasonable amount of stuff and friends/reliable and easy to maintain/occasional events like autox or track days, I would be looking STRAIGHT at a civic SI. Preferrably 8th gen (k series motor, LSD stock) 2006-2012. 

I wouldn't rule out FWD, it's just as easy to learn as RWD. If a CRX is an option those are good cars, they're pretty reliable and I don't think there are many parts rarity issues with them because they have such good aftermarket support, although as old as they are now they're much more likely to need parts. They've been appreciating though and the up-front cost can be fairly high now.

Integras and double-wishbone Civics like the EK are some of the best-handling FWD cars out there.

The XE10-chassis/1st-gen IS300s are great cars, similar to the E36 in a lot of ways but with even better reliability and cheaper parts. Only about 300lbs heavier than a Toyobaru. Later ones are a lot heavier unfortunately.

In terms of imprezas - if you don't do much engine modification are they still unreliable?

On this topic it depends on which model exactly and I'm not that familiar with them. Some are fine at stock power levels and will survive track days with a few oiling system mods, some will break ring lands or blow head gaskets with ordinary street use...

One advantage to a two-seater is that there are fewer in-car distractions. Tell your parents that :)

AWD, all else being equal, is more likely to understeer than RWD. It's fundamental dynamics. 

What price range and age range are we looking at here? Less than an ND, but up to...?

In reply to Keith Tanner :

About 5.5-6k ish. I would probably have already bought a 318ti which my parents agreed to but I'm in the Midwest and cannot find a single decent, stick example in my price range hence I'm now looking further. 

Honestly, I want to learn how to handle oversteer and handling dynamics of rwd cars but I'm having a really hard time finding anything rwd, in my price range, and in my area that's not over 3000 lbs. 

They're ok with a two seater, but just no Miata, or porsche boxster/944. MR2s are fine but only the 3rd gen which I can't find near me. They just have a specific aversion to miatas. 

In reply to GameboyRMH :

They really are the exception to the rule of Japanese reliability huh? I'm looking at first gen and second gen imprezas but they all tend to have some combination or awful structural rust, transmission issues, oil burning, or white smoke (head gasket issues). Hard to find a decent one for cheap. 

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Crx is an option if I can find one - like you said they have been appreciating. They seem cool - exceedingly light weight which is awesome but they are getting rare and tend to be rusty in the Midwest. 

I have looked at integras and the rsx. I've had a hard time finding integras without big rust issues and the rsx is heavy and pig ugly, but seems like a lot of fun. 

I'm surprised to hear the is300 is so light - but after checking yeah 3100 ish lbs. I found one in manual - after looking for an entire month. They seem cool but they strike me as more luxurious than dynamic. Is this a fair characterization?