What about 4th gen F bodies?

Had a thought pop into my head today, and given how many I see at the autocross, maybe others think the same way.

Can you beat a 4th gen F body as an all around car for what you can find them for? I'm looking at an 01 SS with about 4k worth of Strano/BMR parts for 8k OBO. Ls1 and all the goodies that would end up on it anyway(except maybe a watt's link). I've seen a lot of LS1s go for under 6, running and driving great. I keep trying to find alternatives but I just can't. I am extraordinarily indecisive so that's probably got a lot to do with not being able to pick a car. That said, these seem like insane bargains at that price.

What's your opinion, GRM?

Rust. Severely.

Everything on them sucks to work on.

The rearend needs work if you want hard cornering and no pad kickback.

Zero headroom unless you're 5'8.

(okay, that's all out of the way)

And you'll still get beat by a hairdressers car.....

KyAllroad wrote: And you'll still get beat by a hairdressers car.....

Yeah but you'll not have that good ol' V8 rumble and torque....some things are better than the quickest lap dodging cones in a parking lot.

Do it, they're much better than you think. I ran autocross and time trials in an LT1 car in the early 2000's and did pretty well, except when Strano showed up in his.

I'm 6'4". With the T-tops out there's infinite headroom!

In reply to justthatguy: There are a quite a few cars that are better than it, an E36 BMW, E46 BMW, 350Z, RX-8, NC Miata, Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky. The LS1 4th gen faster than them all, but it's not better. It also depends on what you're going to do with them.

I kind of like the idea of driving them. But I hate the idea of owning/working on one.

I've got a 98 Z28. Bought the car a bit over two years ago now to serve as my only car for dd/auto x/general fun car duties and it's served that role well, although now it's more of just the fun car/auto x machine.

I think your assessment is correct in that they're very hard to beat on a all around performance per dollar basis at that price point. With a few mods they become very competent handling machines and I'm sure we're all very well aware of the capabilities of the LS platform. They make fine daily drivers, returning decent gas mileage (I average around 21-23 in mixed driving), are superb highway cruisers, just loaf along with tall gearing and tons of torque, and have more than enough cargo space for most people. I also totally disagree with the headroom assessment. I'm 6'3 and have no problem with headroom even with a helmet on and the t tops in place. The ergonomics just tend to favor a more reclined driving position than most cars.

That being said, I think there are also a lot of good reasons they're priced where they are in today's market. As mentioned, they suck to work on, with the engine basically jammed back under the cowl. I have yet to lay a wrench to mine without going "WTF GM engineers?!?!?" at some point during the project. For example, the upper control arm mounts on the "strut" towers have four bolts comprising a combination of three different types of fasteners - standard hex, metric hex, and torx.

They also lack feel, feedback, and refinement - the car just doesn't "talk" to you in the way that a truly great sports car will. While my Z28 had noticeably more grip than my previous E36, even on the bone stock suspension and crappy tires it came with, I've never gotten nearly as comfortable driving it at the limit as I was with my Bimmer. Coupled with the mass amounts of power and torque, I think this makes for a difficult car to learn on if you're a relatively inexperienced auto x-er like myself. And of course everyone knows how badly the interiors suck.

If I were shopping with the same criteria again today, knowing what I do now I think I'd probably end up with an E46. I'm looking at probably selling my Camaro within the next few months because I'd like something a bit smaller, lighter, and more communicative. Gonna miss the hell out of that LS though.

I think they're great if you actually plan to add grip and race it. For a long time i would have said that the worst part of the value equation was the LS1 tax vs an LT1 car when you weren't planning to add a ton of power anyway, but they're depreciating to the point that the difference may be worth the price bump.

In the 3rd gen thread everyone was telling the poster how it would be better to just start with a 4th gen because they are much better cars. Then in this thread we start out trashing the poor things. I get it, they have crappy interiors and plastic front fenders, the engine is half tucked under the windshield, etc. But an LSx/T56 combo is hard to beat.

My main problem with the 98+ LS cars is that they just never came down in price enough, and not much more money buys a GTO which, I'm told, is a nicer car to live with day to day. But I live in an expensive area, I'm always reading about folks on this board getting deals that just never happen around here.

The fact that a complete 4th gen with an LS1 and T56 is basically worth the same as the engine and transmission tells you quite a bit.

I had a shaggy example that I bought as a donor. It was great when you set the wheels straight and gave it a bootful, woeful at everything else. I didn't feel any regret when I tore it apart.

SEADave wrote: In the 3rd gen thread everyone was telling the poster how it would be better to just start with a 4th gen because they are much better cars. Then in this thread we start out trashing the poor things.

The two are not mutually exclusive

As Keith pointed out, they usually aren't worth the sum of their parts. Usually because most of them are shaggy examples. A GOOD one is okay, but a GOOD one is very hard to find and you'll pay what it's worth, not $6k or whatever.

I loved my LS1 Z28 and am considering getting another, but the LS1 Corvette prices are $10k or lower if you shop around. I think you would have to mod a Z28 quite a bit to equal a Vette on good shocks (Z06 take offs) and good tires.

Again retreading points from the other thread, but i think it's a hard sell to pick up an LS 4th gen fbody over an lt1 c4 as an 'all around' performance car, but maybe the $4k of Strano parts mentioned changes that equation.

Honestly what kills the c4/c5 to me is lack of space. If I was strictly doing handling prowess of course I'd look elsewhere. As a good handling GT, with all those parts I don't think I can do any better for this price and bombproof reliability with cheap parts. I know it won't ever be a sports car with the feel of a BMW short of IRS and a re engineered front suspension but I think for what I'd have in it it'd do pretty good. I'm waiting on a Silver Formula Firebird WS6 as it's definitely the best looking of the F bodies.

Aside from the rear seat room, a C5 is a much better car than a 4th gen F body in every way.

You would actually be quite surprised how much you can cram into a C5 Coupe.

The truth is that it's kind of a E36 M3ty car, but like the Millennium Falcon, it's got it where it counts.

A car with an LS1, 6-speed, and the ability to fit 315s on all for corners can only be so bad. Especially when it's $6k.

I speak from experience.

I used to really like the LS1 Firebird Formula and still kinda do, but they've never really come down enough in price to justify buying one over other competent machines in that price range. 8k gets you a pretty nice c4 and a few grand more gets you a GTO. Other cars of the era in that price range are the 350z/g35, RX8 (way different car, I know) and NC miata (also different, I realize). But if you're looking for a modern-ish muscle car, I've heard you can't go wrong with them especially compared to that era of Mustang.

There's a reason the F-Body won a ton of trophies in its day and for quite a time after they went out of production. Auto cross, road race, whatever, the car flat out works. (and ran rings around Mustangs of the same year) Yes, the engine is tough to reach, but the LS is way ahead of the LT. They are reliable so you don't need to get back there often anyhow. Buy a good one and it will serve you well for a long time. Oddly though, I think my 3rd gen is more fun to drive than my 4th....

It's not that "the engine is tough to reach", it's that a lot of anything you might have to do is fairly complicated. With a lift, air tools, and a lot of practice, I'm able to replace a fuel pump/sending unit fairly quickly. I would NOT want to have to do that without a lift! The easy way involves disconnecting the driveshaft, Panhard bar, shocks, and torque arm mount, and letting the rearend swing down as far down/forward as it will go. Then remove the Panhard brace, and the entire exhaust system as an assembly. Now you can actually get to the fuel tank. I used to do them without pulling the driveshaft or torque arm mount but you have to disassemble the exhaust, can't remove the whole thing, and you can only drop the tank far enough to wrestle the sending unit out without seeing what you're doing...

Most of the underhood PITA isn't really the cowl, it's those enormous strut/control arm towers on the sides. And the nose is really, really, REALLY cramped.

In reply to justthatguy and 93gsxturbo: The C4 and C5 Corvettes are known for having big trunks/hatches for a sports car, but you sound like you need a rear seat. There isn't much room in a Camaro's hatch area, either, since it's not a two seat sports car. The Infiniti G35/G37 is the car that will fit you since you don't seem to like the other suggestions, especially the RX-8. The Genesis coupe is excellent, but those are too new to fit your budget.

I suppose part of my reason is personal. I can remember seeing all the cool parents with Firebirds and Trans Ams picking up my friends from school. I've always wanted one. The lack of rear space with the seats up is irrelevant to me, they will be down for the most part. But, should I need them, they are more than adequate.

To Mr Clutch,

It seems like it would be but I find G35s hideous for some reason. I just can't get into them the same way I can a Firebird. Maybe being around American Muscle for so long has something to do with that. I do like the G37, but I can't find one for anything less than 15k. In this area, Nissans/Infinitis are like exotics to most people.

I'm a huge F-body fanboi but I never got into the 4th gen cars. I could see me putting an LS into a 3rd gen though.

The ls cars arent bad to work on, the lt1 cars do suck to work on but i love them.

Im 6 foot and never had a head room problem.

You get used to working on them and once you know the quirks its just like every other car. Mine served as a daily driver for 8 years. 100 miles a day, for most of those years. Super reliable, and i changed the fuel pump in a parking lot in 13 minutes, because all the smart kids cut a trap door, because its a GM and you wont put a pump in just once.

I hated mine when i added POWAH to a ratty example, then loved it when i fixed the interior and body work and spent a bunch of money sorting the suspension.

A good set of shocks sways and springs literally transform the car. Konis or billies make them ride and handle better, and most of the type getting a decent shocks under them stops a lot of the noises over bumpes the have with the stock decarbons.

Being worth less than their parts is not new, people have been parting out 4th gens for many years. I had 5 different parts guys locally that did strictly 4th gens as a side business. Last i talked to my main one, ls1 t56 and computer was 4200 and could sell in a week or two. 17 inch wheels are atleast 500, seats in good shape are 600, dash pad is 200 if not cracked, rear is 200 to 400. Ls1 front brakes is 2 to 300. Alum driveshaft is 1 to 200.

This is all stuff that has a large demand and sells real fast. Then you have all the small stuff that you sell for a hundred here or there and takes a little longer. He said 6k with a good ls1 he could be in the black in a few weeks and a ratty lt1 t56 car ubder 3000 he wouldnt even bother seeing if it runs, just show up pay, put it on the trailer and leave. Lt1 t56 is about 1500 around here.

That's also been a thought at the back of my mind is that if I ever wreck it, I have a drivetrain that's begging for a Miata.

Decided to pass on the SS, something felt off about the seller, like he was being dishonest. That's okay though, still looking for a Formula WS6. I've got time.

Thanks everyone for your opinions, I think I found what I was looking for.