what are you thoughts?

hey guys. been a lurker for a while and wanted some input on this. so what are yalls thoughts on a 89-92 camaro/firebird for auto-x? i have always liked 3rd gens and have heard they are the best of the f-bodies to auto-x in. and what engine would you put in it? ive always been partial to the sc 3800 series 2 engines and have been wanting to put that in something. i know the lsx engines are more beneficial aftermarket wise, but ive always been the odd ball and wanting to do something rather out of the ordinary. i know its been done and all but just something to put it out there. maybe do the 3.8, then after ive done a few, go in for the lsx. Thoughts?

Series II 3800 was designed for FWD. I suppose it might be possible to make it work in a Camaro, but that would be easier in a 4th gen as they were offered with the 90 degree V6. 3rd gen V6 Camaros had 60 degree V6es.

If you're building a 3rd Gen Camaro/Firebird for Autocross your options are pretty much C Prepared or CAM (Classic American Muscle).

C Prepared is basically a race car class, so for a newbie I think that would be pretty much out.

CAM basically has open rules as long as you don't tub the rear end, have a full interior, and run street tires, so it would allow you to do a lot. LSXes are bloody expensive and since CAM allows a lot, I think you would actually be better off with a built carbureted small block, which can be put together rather inexpensively and make a ton of power. If you wanted to do something goofy, you could do something like a blown LT1.

Well, I'm rambling, I guess, just read the rulebook of the group you plan on running with before building you car.

You can't put a SC 3800 in a 3800 Camaro, the air intake will be jammed several inches into the cowl/firewall.

Actually, the Series II 3800 block (96-up) is the same for both fwd and rwd. Accessory drives and intakes are different obviously. The 96-02 4th gen F-body 3800 is the one to get as the intake is facing the right way, but no supercharger for them (throttle body facing the wrong way like Kenny said). It can be done, but will take a good bit of work and creativity. LS swap would be easy compared to this.

As for which class, supercharged 3800 would not be legal in C Prepared. Only forced induction 3rd gen allowed is the 89 Turbo Trans Am. You could run X Prepared or E Modified, but CAM would be a better class starting out.

I say buy whatever F-body you can afford, buy a nice helmet and drive the dickens out of the car. You'll have a blast and learn a TON!

I noticed you're in Charleston, SC. Do you guys have a "cold/rainy season"? If so, drive the dickens out of the car at your local auto-x's for the first year and when the cold/wet season hits put the car under the wrench and address issues then. You may find that you don't even want/need an engine swap or you may find that your plans for the build change completely.

Good luck man. Remember: Go auto-xing FIRST, work on car second

The "buy the car, autocross it, mod after" makes a ton of sense to me. That theory works in many areas in life.

You may find that hp is fine but traction is the limiting factor or it's under steering like crazy. The engine could be the last thing you'd need to mess with.

Thanks for all the input guys, yea I know the s/c wouldn't fit correctly and would need modification along with the firewall, but it was jus something to take into consideration. In the next few months i should be ready to pull the trigger on a car. Im not quite in Charleston, but we do have a cold/rainy season. Im about 2.5 hours away, but will definitely be looking into events around there and anywhere else i can get to.

In reply to drdisque:

E-Street Prepared is also an option. Google "Sam Strano ESP Camaro" for an example of a nicely prepped car (the earlier maroon one). He built both 3rd and 4th Gen cars and did quite well with them. Of course, he's a better than exceptional driver, but the car didn't hold him back.

ESP is an "R-Comp" class (Hoosier A6), but many local regions have a "street tire" sub-class for SP and SM cars. The rules for SP are somewhat limited with regards to engine modifications (no significant internal changes allowed), but these cars tend to be more "grip-limited" than lacking in power. And you can still do a fair amount to a SBC long-block to make power.

Buy the car, get it running, autox it. Prior to doing any mods, consult the rule book. Some "simple" mods will dump you in a very fast class. If you're out to have fun, that may not matter, but driving an uncompetitive/underprepped car can be frustrating to some. If SCCA, check out CAM class.

I autocross a '91 F-body. Car is fairly stock with WS6 spec suspension and finished very well at the challenge without slicks. These cars were the leaders in F-stock for many years, only to be surpassed by the 4th gen cars. TPI engines make great torque down low, right where you need it. Get one of those unless you really want to build a motor.

Check out thirdgen.org for lots of info

You don't need $5,000 in mods to have fun.

Or, just build an awesome 3.8L supercharged third Gen F-body and take it auto crossing. Worry about rules and classes and crap after you get addicted to it. I'd rather build the car I want than build a car to a specific class. I promise they'll let you run of you show up in it and it's safe.

Make sure it has a solid roof, no removable panels. They tend to flex a lot.

Well my original plan is to buy it and run it like it is. That way I can the learn the car. I guess my only worry is the reliability of the TPI engine. I know nothing about them so i guess thats my problem. Also that is why i was thinking of supercharged 3.8. I had a 99 grand prix before and i loved it for some reason. They have potential. But on the other hand if I were to say 5.3L swap it and run it like it is until i want to go bigger, thats easy power. As yall were saying though, you dont need much power to auto-x. So what i can do is learn me some TPI stuff and focus on handling first.

TPI is very reliable, but these cars are 25+ years old now. They make plenty of power, so focus on the suspension first. Watch for RPO G92, that's the high output engine and better suspension. The tach will redline at 5500rpm, lesser engines are 5000rpm. Rear disc brakes are another give away. There were so many engine/trans/differential combos in these cars that you need to look at each carefully to see what you have.

350's only came with autos, but all 350 cars had the good suspension.

Gearheadotaku wrote: TPI is very reliable, but these cars are 25+ years old now. They make plenty of power, so focus on the suspension first. Watch for RPO G92, that's the high output engine and better suspension. The tach will redline at 5500rpm, lesser engines are 5000rpm. Rear disc brakes are another give away. There were so many engine/trans/differential combos in these cars that you need to look at each carefully to see what you have. 350's only came with autos, but all 350 cars had the good suspension.

Thanks a lot man. I will keep my eye out for one for sure, and more than likely post about it asking questions for i dont really know 3rd gens so much as i do LT and LS 4th gens.

I had an 86' T/A with a tuned port 305 & automatic. It wasn't a fire breather but with 210hp and 270ftlbs it wasn't the slowest thing in the world either. This was years before I had even heard of an auto cross so I can't speak to how one fares at that but as a street machine it was pretty fun.

I wouldn't turn my nose up at a 305 car.

A G95 305 is the one to have the way I see it. They are hard to find cheap, so you get stuck building one like I did.

I have a 91 Camaro RS and I am selling it for $1000, also making it Challenge eligible. It doesn't run now; It needs some gas or the fuel lines checked out. The price is that because it has a LT1 T-56 in it that my brother swapped in. My car is in C Prepared with a few modifications already, so if you wanted to drop down into F Street Prepared or Street Touring Xtreme, you would have to spend some time changing parts back. The car has plenty of major flaws so send me a message if you are interested in buying it. I have a few spare performance parts to throw in at a cheap price, too.

For suggestions, autocross anything you have now, and buy the 3rd gen when you can. I would suggest to get a 5-speed car, a slushbox will slow you down a significant amount when you are comfortable shifting. Don't worry about the engine or performance parts at all for the first season you race with it or your first 8 races; just make sure the car runs good. Your driving will almost certainly not be good enough to extract the performance if you start out modifying the car. After you have experience with autocrossing and with the car, change stuff when you know what's slowing you down, not automatically what other people say you should. Also, remember to have fun, because that's why the sport was created.

Mr_Clutch42 wrote: I have a 91 Camaro RS and I am selling it for $1000, also making it Challenge eligible. It doesn't run now; It needs some gas or the fuel lines checked out. The price is that because it has a LT1 T-56 in it that my brother swapped in. My car is in C Prepared with a few modifications already, so if you wanted to drop down into F Street Prepared or Street Touring Xtreme, you would have to spend some time changing parts back. The car has plenty of major flaws so send me a message if you are interested in buying it. I have a few spare performance parts to throw in at a cheap price, too. For suggestions, autocross anything you have now, and buy the 3rd gen when you can. I would suggest to get a 5-speed car, a slushbox will slow you down a significant amount when you are comfortable shifting. Don't worry about the engine or performance parts at all for the first season you race with it or your first 8 races; just make sure the car runs good. Your driving will almost certainly not be good enough to extract the performance if you start out modifying the car. After you have experience with autocrossing and with the car, change stuff when you know what's slowing you down, not automatically what other people say you should. Also, remember to have fun, because that's why the sport was created.

i havent been approved for messaging yet, but am interested. shoot me at mgriffin4001 at gmail dot com.

Assimilated in 6 posts, welcome to GRM.

Well thank you my friend.

In reply to BeardedJag: I just sent you an e-mail about the long list of problems and other info. I also forgot to mention that the car is a middleweight car to autocross (around 3240 lbs). The weight balance isn't good with the factory V8's , which will matter if you buy mine or a different 3rd gen. They are also a wide car which makes them slower in the slaloms since they have to travel more to go around the cones. But these issues are for later down the road to think about after your first season or two autocrossing with one.

In reply to Mr_Clutch42:

I would message you about this but still not approved for messaging yet, you said it doesnt run bc of fuel issues. Is it bc the fuel lines are bad or fuel pump, or bad gas, or do you know yet?

I think it's either I mixed up the fuel lines from putting a new fuel pump in or it just needs some gas in the tank for the pump to pick up. I also replaced the rubber fuel hoses from the pump to the lines.

oh okay, i got you. so pretty much a simple fix then.