What car, MTX hauler edition

So, yet another what car thread. We need to add a ‘What car’ sub forum here.

Not for me this time, a good friend (another Brit) who doesn’t change cars often is now strongly considering a new car. In the 19 years I’ve known him his history has been:
8x? Camaro
88 Mustang GT
93 SHO
00 Passat B5 Wagon
Not a great rate of turn over. He tends to keep his cars a long time. He does all his own maininance, which means with a B5 he's done plenty!

The POSsat he’s had for something like 8 years now, so he figures it’s time for a change. Requiremetns. He does a lot of DIY and owns two rentals so it must be a hatch/wagon to haul doors, windows, lumber, drywall etc. The POSsat has been brilliant for that and helps prove trucks are overated. Talking of which, don’t suggest a truck, he doesn’t qualify to own one as he has no interest in marrying his sister. He’s also not interested in SUV’s, cute ute’s soccor vans etc. He wants a hatch/wagon. Also must be three pedel, a real manual nothing else unless someone wants to donate a Ferrari 430 with flappy paddel, he does admit he would slum it for that. Ideal age is 2-5 years, someone else can take the depreciation hit. Zero mod’s, he’s a car guy, but a regular car guy, not a GRM’r, no mods, no autocross, no track days. Just a guy who likes cars and driving. I’m guessing $8-12k maybe a hair higher, not sure

While moving furniture last night we were kicking around possible cars in my preffered order, not his:
Audi S4 Avant – A rare beast and a bit old in the price range
04-12 Volvo V50 T5, the real wagon version of my car. Also available with AWD fun.
03-08 Forester XT. Yes it’s technicaly an SUV, but I consider it a tall wagon, it’s really pushing it to think of it as an SUV. All the benefit of the WRX with much added stealth
X type Wagon – Probably makes the S4 look comon when considering a manual trans, older and the price range would give the best example still in existance
06-07 GD WRX Wagon with the 2.5L
02-05 GD WRX or Saabaru wagon
Audi A4 Avant - trouble is it’s the same car he has just in drag.

I did throw out a Pontiac Vibe, Jeep Liberty, PT Turbo cruiser. These were all soundly dismissed based on driving dynamics.

I've seen the Vibe with a 5-Speed really haul it through the corners with some mods. but I could never live with a Pontiac interior for more than 3 minutes. Plus it won't fit a door.

What you want is a Subaru Legacy B-Spec wagon with a 6-speed. But then, so do the rest of us and we can't have one either.

My first thought, was:

first gen Mazda5: slow but very nice to drive and very roomy

03-09 Subaru Legacy Wagon: you could even have them with the 2.5 turbo and they are roomier than the forester.

first gen mazdaspeed3: more a hatchback than a wagon, but you suggested a WRX

First gen mazda6 wagon: very roomy

Saab 9-3: you could have them AWD and turbo in the last few years

Forgot...

E46 328ix wagon

fanfoy wrote: Forgot... E46 328ix wagon

Or an E39 525 5 spd wagon.

Granted, anything German in this price range is not likely to be any less maintenance intensive or more reliable than his current B5.

While an S4 sound awesome in theory, it's really a "car guy" car in this price range. He'd need to really love it to stomach the gas mileage if he drives a lot. Also be warned the rear cargo area isn't as roomy as his Passat (same chassis, but the Passat has a larger cargo area) and the rear floor is sh1tty cardboard and doesn't hold up well to heavy cargo (I had a '98 A4 - BTDT).

For his use and needs, I'd probably push the Forester.

fanfoy wrote: Forgot... E46 328ix wagon

I totaly forgot about E46's!! Damn, that's a good one. I recall when we were shopping for a mommy wagon in 03/04 we drove the E46. The issue was that SWMBO wanted AWD and Auto, that meant in an E46 wagon you could only get the 323 which left it unable to get out of it's own way, but a 328 with a stick, yummy.

Ian F wrote:

fanfoy wrote: Forgot... E46 328ix wagon

Or an E39 525 5 spd wagon. Granted, anything German in this price range is not likely to be any less maintenance intensive or more reliable than his current B5. While an S4 sound awesome in theory, it's really a "car guy" car in this price range. He'd need to really love it to stomach the gas mileage if he drives a lot. Also be warned the rear cargo area isn't as roomy as his Passat (same chassis, but the Passat has a larger cargo area) and the rear floor is sh1tty cardboard and doesn't hold up well to heavy cargo (I had a '98 A4 - BTDT). For his use and needs, I'd probably push the Forester.

Interesting, I didn't realize the S4 had less cargo space than the POSat

I'm thinking E39's are getting a bit old, but great suggestion.

I'm with you, I really like the Forester, maybe it's becuase it's such a gay icon to match my C30

The Audi sheetmetal is more stylish and less boxy, but that comes with the trade-off of less interior space. My A4 was only marginally larger than my current Mk IV wagon (rear leg room), and the Mk IV has a more "square" cargo area. For example, I once easily fit a clothes dryer in the back of my wagon along with a appliance hand-truck and some other odds and ends.

And I'm assuming a B5 V6 TT version of the S4. The B6 V8 S4 was blessed with the dubious distinction of having the worst gas mileage of all cars in it's class at the time (considered a 'compact' by interior volume). Average mpg is in the low teens. City mpg was like 11 or 12.

A Volvo V70 R Wagon. Can find them in stick (albeit more rare than stick R Sedans), and they are AWD. We almost had one instead of our Grand Cherokee and I kick myself every day for not making the decision to get the R wagon.

If not that, I vote S4 wagon. But if he thinks his B5 was maintenance intensive. The B6 has the lovely timing chain service which requires basically everything to come apart. The entire engine eneds to come up out of the car. Usually why you see everyone dump theirs onto the market right around the time for a chain job. In parts alone, the job runs anywhere from $2-3k, if you have a stealer or shop do it, multiply that by at least , if not more. It literally kept me from ever buying a B6 and I always wanted one so badly. See below...

B6 Timing Chain

Wow, I think you've collectivly scared ME off of the S4 and it's not even my time and money!

Aren't V70R's serious electrical nightmares?

Yes, from what I hear they can be. But I suppose that is a common trait to a lot of the Volvo's around that age. I mean all of the cars listed have some sort of achille's heal. I wouldn't touch a Jaguar X, sedan or wagon. They are junk. Sorry to anyone that owns or owned one. But my experience and that of friends and family is terrible. They felt cheaply constructed even when new.

If he wanted reliability and cheaper repairs, I would probably stick to those Subaru's listed. Out of those, I would go WRX, though I think it's cargo capacity will be smaller than the Forester.

I had 2 E46 BMWs and they served me well, especially my AWD Xi Sedan. He could pick up an Xi Wagon, but I know it's a lot harder to find a wagon with a stick. But if he can, it's a great car and the only downside is less cargo capacity than some of those options, and again, cost of repairs because of it's logo on the hood. I found them no more or less reliable than anything Japanese that I've owned.

redhookfern wrote: See below... B6 Timing Chain

(whistles....)

Wow... I'd forgotten about that... this has been posted before. And folks wonder why I think timing belts are better than chains... at least with a belt the engine is almost always designed with replacement service in mind... with a chain, you're almost always effed.

2005-2008 Legacy Wagon. NO TURBOS. Turbos make Subarus unreliable.

Saab 9-3 SportCombi

Mazda 6 wagon old hotness:

new hotness:

Hmm... good call on the Mazda 6 wagon. They were available with a stick, but are somewhat rare. A quick autotrader search shows 8 for sale in the entire US. All under $10K, though, with reasonable miles (100K, give or take).

Last I heard, we aren't getting the new 6 in wagon form.

Oh I forgot about the 6 too. I had the 5-speed, V6 sedan version. It was a fun car. Felt really light though, and had terrible torque steer in inclement weather. Never had a single issue with it though.

I forgot about the Mazda 6 too, it was one of the cars we talked about last night and had already fallen off my RADAR, must be a bit too forgetfull. Also of those 8 cars they are all 200 or more miles away. He's definitly not so wed to the idea of a 6 that he would travel for it.

I would say an Audi All Road, because I also always wanted one, but knowing that maintenance mongers that they are, I couldn't recommend one in good faith.

the E46 wagons with a stick pull a pretty good premium......just something to consider there.

Ian F wrote: And I'm assuming a B5 V6 TT version of the S4. The B6 V8 S4 was blessed with the dubious distinction of having the worst gas mileage of all cars in it's class at the time (considered a 'compact' by interior volume). Average mpg is in the low teens. City mpg was like 11 or 12.

It's not quite that bad. It depends a lot on how heavy your right foot is, but yes, fuel economy is definitely not the strong point of the B6/B7 S4 (it was only a few mpg higher on the B5, for that matter). I see 10-12 in stop-and-go traffic, 13-14 in average city traffic, 17 on the freeway. That's with CA crap gas and a very heavy right foot.

The timing chain service isn't specified by Audi, and it's not clear to me what the actual failure rates on those parts is. Audi owners on the net have an odd tendency to come up with additional services that suddenly become perceived as "must have"s.

Used, S4 Avants tend to command a significant premium over their sedan cousins -- $10-12K might be a reaosnable price for a 100K mile B6 S4 sedan, but the same car as an Avant is likely to be a few grand higher, and even more if it's a 6MT instead of the tiptronic. It's odd how the option combos that were undesirable from the factory become more popular when used.

The Passat was built off the same platform as the A4 and A6, with a wheelbase in between the two, which is a big part of the reason why the Passat has more space than the A4/S4.

+1 for the Saab.

redhookfern wrote: I would say an Audi All Road, because I also always wanted one, but knowing that maintenance mongers that they are, I couldn't recommend one in good faith.

Did they come with a stick? Also they are supposed to be unreliable, but the two I konw of have been 110% reliable.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

redhookfern wrote: I would say an Audi All Road, because I also always wanted one, but knowing that maintenance mongers that they are, I couldn't recommend one in good faith.

Did they come with a stick? Also they are supposed to be unreliable, but the two I konw of have been 110% reliable.

I believe you could get a 2.7T allroad with a manual. The 4.2s were tiptronic-only.

Yes, they could come in stick, and I actually often see the 2.7 in stick. Keep in mind the 4.2 also can require that same lovely chain replacement service, but is actually a bit more reliable of the 2 engine choices (but no manual available). The 2.7t is the same as the B5 S4, so the same issues that plague that car will plague this (failure of the turbos, cam adjuster seals, belt replacements, valve cover leaks, etc).

I feel like there are some reliable ones out there, like any Audi. Maybe folks who either got lucky or religiously maintained them. My own experiences were the opposite. My sister bought one pre-owned and had so many issues in the first month, it went back to the dealer. My downstairs neighbor had repeated air suspension failures, electronics issues, and cooling system repairs. The crapped out air suspension seems to be common and I believe you can swap it out for a springs/shocks set up, but just something to keep in mind as it is the bain of most owner's experiences.

Awesome looking cars though and I am glad they brought that package back in the new A4's.

codrus wrote: The timing chain service isn't specified by Audi, and it's not clear to me what the actual failure rates on those parts is.

I've never seen a timing chain service specified by any manufacturer. I generally get the impression timing chains are considered "lifetime" parts... sort of like BMW's "lifetime" transmission fluid... With "lifetime" being some months after the warranty expires.

FWIW, I am by no means a VAG product hater. I've owned a 2003 Jetta TDi wagon since new and over 10 years and 314K miles it's been the most reliable car I've ever owned.