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Steve
Steve Reader
10/2/23 12:06 p.m.

As someone who knows their way around an engine bay, and has done jobs wrong enough times to learn a thing or two, I am always curious to know what other people think about when they think about reliable

Personally, I don't consider reliability never opening up the hood of a car, never checking brakes, or never investigating that new noise. Just this morning I checked the oil in the MS3 while getting fuel because I know it's an 07 turbo car and is known for oil consumption. It was fine, just like it was last time, but if I didn't check it, and it wasn't fine, and the engine ate itself because the turbo seals failed, I am positive someone would consider the MS3 unreliable. In fact, the Mazdaspeed community is full of people who don't pay attention to their vehicles, and get pissed off when they load the stage 3 Cobb tune and nuke their otherwise factory motor. It's altogether considered a platform full of problems, but almost all of them can be attributed to failing OEM parts due to age or mileage, or owners modifying their cars outside of their means. 

My previous car, the '10 DSG Passat, took some work to revive, but in the end, was just as reliable as comparable Japanese cars. Yes, it was built different, but after learning the quirks about how and why things went wrong, it was a dependable family hauler that didn't mind getting wrung out every once in a while despite it's size. 

I fixed my gas hot water heater this weekend, mostly just cleaning some components up and everything is back behaving as it should. I could have just as easily replaced the entire unit. Or called an on site repair company. Some may argue that would have been a better option, as I did spend an hour of my time doing the work, and people like to make the argument that your time is worth something (true). But, my Son and I did it together (he's 4), and no, he isn't going to go do the job on his own, but he was curious, and helped in his own way. Would I consider the hot water heater a failure? Has it become unreliable since it needed attention from years of 24/7 use? 

It seems that we have gotten to the point where every mechanical or electronic device is just assumed to never need attention, that everything is solid state, and never needs a look "under the hood". 

Reliability to me is the continuation of functionality with attentive maintenance or replacement of supporting components. An object is a sum of it's parts. My MS3's suspension isn't problematic because I had to replace the sway bar mount bushings, it's just necessary. My Passat's need for a front cover gasket to fix it's misfire doesn't mean it was designed poorly, it had 190k miles and was at the end of it's service life. My hot water heater isn't garbage because I needed to clean up the components in the burner chamber and vacuum out the intake screen, it's just needed. 

We're "probably" all a bit different than the usual consumer, in that we understand that most machinery needs to be maintained and serviced, but it's disappointing to see more and more of the online communities shifting towards negative commentary on a given vehicle. I truly miss the "good old days" of the plethora of forums (think early 00's MR2OC days) where there was as much positive dialogue as diagnostic help requests or troubles. GRM excluded of course, this is a great forum and I am very happy it's here. 

Maybe this is more of a commentary on our consumer culture, the idea that if your performance car wipes a bearing it must be time to part the whole thing out and scrap the shell. Or that a lot of cars are designed to be "off limits" to DIY'ers. Or that by consistent marketing the goal is to remind us and our kids that this new thing is out and it's absolutely going to make our lives better and you really shouldn't bother repairing that old one. 

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
10/2/23 12:16 p.m.

Means that I should not expect catastrophic failures that will stress test my household budget.

That would mostly mean that I want the drivetrain to be there for at least ten years with nothing more than routine maintenance.

 

That said, having just jumped 10 years  forward from the last car into a new car, I see the network or electronics as nothing but an expensive disaster waiting to happen.  Check back with me in 10 years.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/2/23 12:43 p.m.

No major failures with basic maintenance. Basic maintenance doesn't mean head gaskets at 90k, complete cooling system overhauls at 10 years or adjusting valves every 60k. Basic maintenance means oil changes, brakes, fluid changes (trans, coolant and brake) on a normal interval (not every 15k miles), filters (air and cabin) and maybe spark plugs every 60-90k. 

Anything more than that is not reliable and requires too much pampering to make it happy. And valve adjustments, really Honda? You know they make these things called hydraulic lifters/followers now for like the last 50 years. They work really well and you never have to berkeley with it.

Driven5
Driven5 UberDork
10/2/23 12:44 p.m.

Reliability is the minimizing of disruption.

Disruption includes both maintenance and repairs.

Durability is reliability in the face of extreme operating conditions.

No Time
No Time UltraDork
10/2/23 12:50 p.m.

In reply to bobzilla :

Honda had them in motorcycle engines in the 80s

Recon1342
Recon1342 SuperDork
10/2/23 12:57 p.m.

Reliable: Does not require anything more than standard maintenance/replacement of wear items for what could reasonably be considered the life of the vehicle. The trick is following that maintenance schedule...

So, oil/fluid changes and flushes, brake maintenance, shocks/struts, tires, alignments, suspension wear items, belts, hoses, and ignition parts like coils, plugs, wires, cap/rotor if so equipped...

Reasonable life? With today's tech and manufacturing capability, 200K miles is not unreasonable. A friend's 2001 Ford Excursion (V10) is getting ready to roll over 200k on the odometer. The only thing it has needed beyond the standard maintenance was exhaust manifold studs. 

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
10/2/23 1:42 p.m.

In reply to No Time :

I know, my nighthawk had them I think. Yet the J and D's do not. 

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/2/23 2:11 p.m.

I concur with the definitions given here. Though I feel I must point out that JD Power has a different definition. If the infotainment system pissed you off, that's a ding on the car's "dependability".

Lof8 - Andy
Lof8 - Andy GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
10/2/23 2:26 p.m.

My 2018 V6 F-150 company truck is approaching 230k miles, all put on by me.  Its needed a few sets of tires, oil changes, 2 sets of rear brake pads, and a catalytic converter.  Its never left me stranded anywhere.  The most reliable vehicle I've ever used.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/2/23 2:36 p.m.

nothing is maintenance free.

reliability is "does it do what it's supposed to do, when called upon to do so?"

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
10/2/23 2:36 p.m.

In reply to Steve :

We have very different definitions of reliability:

Other than oil changes / fluid changes and spark plugs I expect a car to go 100K minimum before any major service is needed. I shouldn't have to lift the hood between oil changes......period.

I know many brands have "short" maintenance intervals...............note I don't consider those reliable.  I hear people saying certain cars are super reliable track cars but then in the next breath I hear the talk of changing sub frame mounts and coolant system parts. Those cars are not reliable to me.

Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter)
Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
10/2/23 2:36 p.m.

I recently had occasion to ponder the concept of reliability. 

My oldest daughter (20) needed a vehicle to drive for a while. So I threw my 27 year old Corolla her direction. She has a road trip planned out of state next week and I had zero qualms about her using the Corolla. That's the definition of reliability to me, can I put my daughter in the thing and send her out of state and not sweat it ?.

But I am very militant about maintenance on my stuff. On par with aviation industry levels of scheduled maintenance. But I also steer toward Honda or Toyota for dependability, and have never had any interest in cars that demand things like total cooling system replacements on regular intervals. Adjusting the valves on my Hondas has never bothered me a bit. 

No Time
No Time UltraDork
10/2/23 2:37 p.m.
bobzilla said:

In reply to No Time :

I know, my nighthawk had them I think. Yet the J and D's do not. 

That's bizarre it isn't on the automotive engines.

My nighthawk S had them as well. It was a big deal when they implemented on the V and in-line 4s to take up the clearance on the followers for the overhead cams. 

No Time
No Time UltraDork
10/2/23 2:42 p.m.

The simple version is knowing I can go out in any weather, turn the key and get where I need to safely and without wondering will start or make it to the destination.

The more detailed version is that it requires just maintenance and normal repairs due to wear and tear that can be scheduled at my convenience. No having to make emergency repairs on a snowy winter night to be able to get to work the next day. 

DrBoost
DrBoost MegaDork
10/2/23 2:51 p.m.

re·li·a·bil·i·ty

/rəˌlīəˈbilədē/

 

noun

  1. the quality of being trustworthy or of performing consistently well.

    "the car's background gives me every confidence in its reliability"

For me, and sounds like most of us here, reliability means the same thing. That is close to the definition posted above.  

Reliability means I can follow the manufacturer's, or my maintenance schedule (mine is always more rigorous) and I will not have to worry about repairs. That being said I don't consider wheel bearings at 100K miles to be a repair, that's maintenance. An engine needing a refresh at 250K-300K miles is also maintenance, a starter after 7 or 8 years, yeah, that's maintenance. Stuff wears out. You can't avoid that. But with routine maintenance it's not often a surprise except with things like starters, and alternators. There's usually not a warning. Such is life. 

Today the vehicle electronics are one of the major hurdles to reliability. There's no maintenance, no inspections really, and often replacement is the only answer.....until there are no replacements for the part. Then you hope a cottage industry has popped up to answer that call and keep those cars on the road.

Recon1342
Recon1342 SuperDork
10/2/23 3:00 p.m.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

I concur with the definitions given here. Though I feel I must point out that JD Power has a different definition. If the infotainment system pissed you off, that's a ding on the car's "dependability".

Lame. My daily's "infotainment" system is an AM/FM radio. Whether or not it works has absolutely zero bearing on the "dependability" of the vehicle.

JD Power clearly haz the dumb. 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/2/23 3:13 p.m.
Tom1200 said:

In reply to Steve :

I know many brands have "short" maintenance intervals...............note I don't consider those reliable.  I hear people saying certain cars are super reliable track cars but then in the next breath I hear the talk of changing sub frame mounts and coolant system parts. Those cars are not reliable to me.

IIRC from my reliability engineering course, "regular" vs "short" maintenance intervals would affect availability (percent uptime), not reliability (does it do what it's supposed to do).

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/2/23 3:18 p.m.
Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) said:

My oldest daughter (20) needed a vehicle to drive for a while. So I threw my 27 year old Corolla her direction. She has a road trip planned out of state next week and I had zero qualms about her using the Corolla. That's the definition of reliability to me, can I put my daughter in the thing and send her out of state and not sweat it ?.

Totally.  My 18YO daughter wanted to go to Cinci to visit a friend.  240k mile 2010 Odyssey, maintained by me for last 190k.  No hesitation.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
10/2/23 3:21 p.m.
Recon1342 said:
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

I concur with the definitions given here. Though I feel I must point out that JD Power has a different definition. If the infotainment system pissed you off, that's a ding on the car's "dependability".

Lame. My daily's "infotainment" system is an AM/FM radio. Whether or not it works has absolutely zero bearing on the "dependability" of the vehicle.

JD Power clearly haz the dumb. 

JD Power goes with the only simple and objective definition -- if the manufacturer supplied it and it's broken, then it counts.  Otherwise you get people arguing about whether or not a rear seatbelt being broken really matters.

As for the original question, I agree that "reliability" is a different axis from "maintainability".  A reliable vehicle is one that does not suffer unexpected failures when maintained according to the specified schedule.  Aircraft and race cars are two examples of vehicles where failure is not acceptable, and you achieve reliability by emphasizing the maintenance.

 

Toyman!
Toyman! GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/2/23 3:21 p.m.

Does it do its job every day without fail? If so, it's reliable.

 

scardeal
scardeal SuperDork
10/2/23 3:35 p.m.

I tend to agree with most people here.  

Some folks in the tuner scene seem to think of reliability in terms of how much extra power can you put through the system before stuff starts breaking.  It seems to be a different metric.

Driven5
Driven5 UberDork
10/2/23 3:50 p.m.

If car A requires more maintenance than car B to prevent failure, then car B is still more reliable than car A even if both never break down.

buzzboy
buzzboy UltraDork
10/2/23 3:57 p.m.

With a modern car...
I don't want to do more than scheduled maintenance for at least 150k.
I don't want to be replacing small components(coils, starter, radiator) for at least 200k.
I don't want to need major component replacement(engine, trans, diff) for at least 300k.

I replace something every 6-8 months on my 345k mile Jeep and I still consider it reliable. A coil here, shocks there, ujoint elsewhere, are reasonable for a 27 year old car that gets driven. If I see that same behavior with my 8k mile Jeep something is wrong.

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter)
RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) Reader
10/2/23 4:04 p.m.
Driven5 said:

Reliability is the minimizing of disruption.

Disruption includes both maintenance and repairs.

Durability is reliability in the face of extreme operating conditions.

This view definitely aligns with what I think. Although there are some cars I consider reliable but high maintenance (meaning as long as you keep up with the maintenance interval it will last).

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
10/2/23 4:13 p.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

IIRC from my reliability engineering course, "regular" vs "short" maintenance intervals would affect availability (percent uptime), not reliability (does it do what it's supposed to do).

And from my lazy mechanic neglectful training I still consider those cars less reliable which for me equates to unreliable. LOL.

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