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Chris_V
Chris_V UberDork
9/5/23 1:57 p.m.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Chris_V :

If my friends are any indication, the Bolt is a pretty great vehicle. Part of the reason could be that they are all greenies, and may not have previously driven such a torquey car. Power corrupts! That said, one of the guys here was saying that they weren't much at the autocross course, which is a bit surprising, because although they're tall, the center of mass should be quite low.

The center of mass is low, but the stock chassis dynamics are more for comfort than handling, and the stock tires SUCK! Both things can be solved in the aftermarket as the top one I posted shows. And they kind of look tall, but put against a GTI, they really aren't much taller at all. The EUV is, and it has less aluminum in the body. But for a daily driver, it's still plenty sporty.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/5/23 2:39 p.m.

If I were looking for a replacement for my Ridgeline, the Rivian would be perfect. They get a lot of hate because of the vertical headlights, but that aside, they are pretty wonderful trucks. They just need an eye job:

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
9/5/23 4:09 p.m.
Flynlow (FS) said:
 

I enjoyed the first page and a half, I'm out now that the thread has been frenchy'd.  And on the off chance that frenchy is just a GRM staff members troll account, rather than a real person, ala Phil Hendrie from KFI 640AM getting into arguments with himself

Just dropping in to point out that I have a theory that, given a long enough timeline, all Phil Hendrie bits will eventually have real world analogs. I guess at this point I've lived long enough to see it happen on our board.

Anyway, be nice everyone.

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
9/5/23 4:36 p.m.
JG Pasterjak said:
Phil Hendrie from KFI 640AM getting into arguments with himself

Just dropping in to point out that I have a theory that, given a long enough timeline, all Phil Hendrie bits will eventually have real world analogs. I guess at this point I've lived long enough to see it happen on our board.

Anyway, be nice everyone.

First as an ADD poster kid (actually ADD not just the Hive car kind) I will point out that we ADD types constantly have arguments with ourselves.

Overall I find most people here to be nice..........even when we passionately disagree.

Even when it does degrade to out an out insults they are rather tame relative to the rest of car forums.

Soooooooo back to EVs.

This thread has made me realize the irony of my opinion on EVs; I would do an EV Formula 500/ F-mod for autocross and a EV Lotus 7 for track days but as of yet, an EV road car doesn't hold interest for me.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
9/5/23 5:26 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:
Flynlow (FS) said:
frenchyd said:
Flynlow (FS) said:

In reply to preach :

I am waiting for a Civic Si, VW GTI, or something similar, with decent driving dynamics and 300+ mile range.  Reading articles like this:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g29994375/future-electric-cars-trucks/

Makes me worried that i'll be waiting a few years.  Theres too much SUV love (and profit) to cater to enthusiasts yet.  

A close 2nd would be a lexus isf/is500 type car thats all electric.  I think toyota would be a step above the germans when it comes to long term reliability, which is why the i4, taycan and similar don't really interest me.  
 

May I suggest you try a Tesla Model 3 performance before you condemn all EV's ?   I was shocked at how fast it was.   Using the same throttle position I use on my V8 F150  to get up the hill I was doing 40+ mph where the truck would barely reach 25. 
  As far as reliability. Our past preconceptions just don't seem to apply.  At this point the Japanese car companies only have .0o3 % of new cars as EV's   And the best selling EV is the Tesla Model Y  followed by BYD  and then Tesla model 3 

BYD  is mostly sold in China.  And in Europe they  haven't taken well to them.   In Europe Tesla is #1&2  same with here in America. 
        As far as reliability there is already a early Tesla  with a million miles on it.  The Tesla forum has plenty with 300,000+ miles on them already. 
   Read what Kieth Tanner's experience  with his Tesla is.  Come to my neighborhood and chat with Tesla owners. 

Where, anywhere, in my post about eagerly anticipating a hot hatch EV, did I, "condemn all EV's"?  Please work on your reading comprehension.

And while you're at it, stop evangelizing a lifestyle you don't yourself subscribe to.  (You ignorant troll). 

I enjoyed the first page and a half, I'm out now that the thread has been frenchy'd.  And on the off chance that frenchy is just a GRM staff members troll account, rather than a real person, ala Phil Hendrie from KFI 640AM getting into arguments with himself:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/southern-california-area/248896-iroc-camaro-talks-about.html

Please consider the atmosphere it is creating for the forum.  

That's a pretty serious accusation, and one I have to refute. But the fact I have to argue about this at midnight is providing some clarity to the question all of us on staff have been pondering for some time--when is the time right to ban somebody who's killing the party? 

Not that my opinion is some kind of arbiter of anything, but he's ben banned before. He constantly posts misinformation while being condescending to everyone who doesn't agree with him. He continues to tell us all we should be doing something that he himself doesn't do. Heck, there is a perfect example just in this thread. On page 2 he said the Model 2 would be out next year, maybe 2025 if your pessimistic then on this page references himself that the model would be out in 2024. 

Again, not that my opinion holds much weight, but as many others have said, I visit this forum far less frequently because of it. I think this is the first time since Thursday, when I typically would stop by to check in on threads multiple times per day. 

I've said my peace and I won't mention or engage with mguar anymore. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
9/5/23 5:39 p.m.

Now back on topic. 

At the moment, there aren't really an EVs that interest me. We've got the BRZ as the fun car, and the fiance's '18 Mazda 3 as the do it all comfy road trip car. It only has 55k miles and is almost paid off, so we will likely have it into the foreseeable future. Planning on taking one to Florida over the Christmas/NY break. 

An EV would make sense for her, I think with her commute and weekly errands, the typical 250-300 mile range we see often would last around a week? We already have 230/240 to the house because of the dryer and electric range, so I don't think it would be a big deal to add a charger. 

She might really like that VW, I think it's a pretty good.................just showed her, she said she really likes it, she'd just want it in a different color than red. 

grover
grover GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/5/23 10:01 p.m.

This thread got me thinking. 
 

I have a nearly 13 year old and a 14 year old. The most annoying thing at that age is...gas. Also, I'm not excited about oil changes etc on an ice with the kids. 
 

would a used leaf not be the perfect kid mobile?

-It's slow for electric vehicle standards. 

-the high school is only about 7 miles from the house so range should be fine- and less than 50 miles is even better!!

-no oil changes or fuel. 

-top speed is very limited. 
 

thoughts? 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
9/6/23 12:01 a.m.

In reply to grover :

If I had kids, which I don't so take it with a grain of a salt, I think it's great idea. Cheap buy in and maintenance, if they get in an accident they are fairly safe and cheap to either repair or replace. 

I got my license the day I turned 16 in 1998. My mom let me skip school to take me to get my license. My '89 Ford Econobox GT from my dad was already in the driveway. That weekend I went through 2 tanks of gas of visiting and going to different places with my friends. I had a bunch of friends from all over the Tulsa metro area in various school districts. But I realize things are a bit different now. 

My junior year of high school when I had my '88 300ZX my friend and I drove from Tulsa to Dallas to see an import drag race at Denton. This would have been spring of '99 I think? No cell phones, no chaperons, our parents trusted us to not be dumb. Left at 3am, got home around 11:30pm the same day. It was a blast. 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
9/6/23 7:37 a.m.
grover said:

This thread got me thinking. 
 

I have a nearly 13 year old and a 14 year old. The most annoying thing at that age is...gas. Also, I'm not excited about oil changes etc on an ice with the kids. 
 

would a used leaf not be the perfect kid mobile?

-It's slow for electric vehicle standards. 

-the high school is only about 7 miles from the house so range should be fine- and less than 50 miles is even better!!

-no oil changes or fuel. 

-top speed is very limited. 
 

thoughts? 

The Leaf was launched when I was a sophomore in highschool, and I badly, badly wanted one. Even as a car guy. The allure of zero gas/maintenance/etc. was strong, but I also knew I'd still have a "fun" car for autocross.

I never managed to buy a Leaf in highschool, but I did own one right out of college and it was everything I'd hoped it would be. Fantastic appliance.

grover
grover GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/6/23 2:17 p.m.

My first car was a Sentra that kept popping axles- turns out the flaps had the wrong replacement that was slightly too short and it took us a few tries to figure out. But beyond that I remember flipping burgers and handing out ice cream basically just for gas money. 
makes sense to me to have a little electric beater around here rather than a gas beater. 
I do have 98 ranger with a 4.0 in the driveway that's currently slotted for my son- but now I'm not so sure. 

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
9/6/23 2:52 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:
grover said:

This thread got me thinking. 
 

I have a nearly 13 year old and a 14 year old. The most annoying thing at that age is...gas. Also, I'm not excited about oil changes etc on an ice with the kids. 
 

would a used leaf not be the perfect kid mobile?

-It's slow for electric vehicle standards. 

-the high school is only about 7 miles from the house so range should be fine- and less than 50 miles is even better!!

-no oil changes or fuel. 

-top speed is very limited. 
 

thoughts? 

The Leaf was launched when I was a sophomore in highschool, and I badly, badly wanted one. Even as a car guy. The allure of zero gas/maintenance/etc. was strong, but I also knew I'd still have a "fun" car for autocross.

I never managed to buy a Leaf in highschool, but I did own one right out of college and it was everything I'd hoped it would be. Fantastic appliance.

I was in the "the darn kids can buy their own darn cars with their own darn money when they get their own darn jobs" mentality until very recently. Tunakid 1 is 15. His insurance will cost $1100/6mo, every car is incredibly expensive, and there have been multiple fatalities right near our house on the main road in reasonably modern cars.

 

A friend has many kids, and he bought a couple "kid cars", you want a ride? Pay Dad $X per month and there it is.

 

It's a good idea. A 2013-2015 Leaf is, maybe, the perfect kid car.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
9/6/23 2:53 p.m.
grover said:

My first car was a Sentra that kept popping axles- turns out the flaps had the wrong replacement that was slightly too short and it took us a few tries to figure out. But beyond that I remember flipping burgers and handing out ice cream basically just for gas money. 
makes sense to me to have a little electric beater around here rather than a gas beater. 
I do have 98 ranger with a 4.0 in the driveway that's currently slotted for my son- but now I'm not so sure. 

Justin is that you?

I had a buddy with that exact failure mode in High School.

grover
grover GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/6/23 8:11 p.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

Not a Justin. Ben- but man it was frustrating. Always a left had turn pulling out from a stop sign. Manual transmission. 
 

Funny story- dad has a hookup with a body shop guy if I would prep and pay for the actual paint. I wet sanded that thing and didn't have fingerprints for what seemed like 6 months! 
I did have a pioneer cd player and that was very cool for 96. 

grover
grover GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/6/23 8:12 p.m.

In reply to tuna55 :

Hmmmm- that sounds like a great idea. I have two- but this is appealing. 
 

I do want them both to learn how to drive a stick- just feels like a safety thing. May come in handy one day. 

Crxpilot
Crxpilot HalfDork
9/6/23 11:08 p.m.

I like FortNine's DIY electric Suzuki.  Raw but small and makes good use of current tech.

dxman92
dxman92 SuperDork
9/7/23 2:29 a.m.

I wouldnt turn down a Chevy Bolt.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
9/7/23 2:11 p.m.
Tom1200 said:
JG Pasterjak said:
Phil Hendrie from KFI 640AM getting into arguments with himself

Just dropping in to point out that I have a theory that, given a long enough timeline, all Phil Hendrie bits will eventually have real world analogs. I guess at this point I've lived long enough to see it happen on our board.

Anyway, be nice everyone.

First as an ADD poster kid (actually ADD not just the Hive car kind) I will point out that we ADD types constantly have arguments with ourselves.

Overall I find most people here to be nice..........even when we passionately disagree.

Even when it does degrade to out an out insults they are rather tame relative to the rest of car forums.

Soooooooo back to EVs.

This thread has made me realize the irony of my opinion on EVs; I would do an EV Formula 500/ F-mod for autocross and a EV Lotus 7 for track days but as of yet, an EV road car doesn't hold interest for me.

I'm constantly evaluating it.  I know in the end EVs win.  Think back 10 years.  The reality of the dream is getting closer everyday.  I just wish progress could occur more organically with less outside input.  Let the innovators and customers decide.  I know I will likely have an EV or hybrid very soon.  I'm just waiting for a few more incremental improvements.  Battery tech is the biggest.   

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
9/7/23 2:19 p.m.
dxman92 said:

I wouldnt turn down a Chevy Bolt.

That's about the amount of enthusiasm I have. I wouldn't mind my Jetta going away and driving one. Just not the right time to replace.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/7/23 2:32 p.m.

As of right now, the only OEM EV that interests me is the MINI Cooper EV.

A EV swapped air cooled Beetle also seems cool though.

Chris_V
Chris_V UberDork
9/7/23 2:56 p.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm constantly evaluating it.  I know in the end EVs win.  Think back 10 years.  The reality of the dream is getting closer everyday.  I just wish progress could occur more organically with less outside input.  Let the innovators and customers decide. 

Less outside input on BOTH sides of the aisle? Remember back in the mid 2000s when the Chevy Volt was being developed by Bob Lutz as an American answer to the Prius, while being even more technologically advanced? It was the ONLY new program from before the bailout that was retained. Remember how badly the oil companies and RW outlets slammed that car? Look at social media now and all the anti-EV propaganda being spewed that is FULL of falsehoods. How does that foster innovation and customer choice?

I'm not a fan of government incentives, and I got no government incentives on any of my EVs. But letting government push them is no different than letting government push any emissions/pollution related legislation or innovation going back to 1970 and Nixon's creation of the EPA. Or the government development of Arapanet and the governmental push to broadband everywhere and digital signals for TVs. Or GPS satellites. Innovation often comes from meeting government regulations, whether that's pollution, safety, etc. And it's kind of in the national security interests to do this.

When looking at cost of ICE v. EV you do need to take into account the big picture of what we have done, and continue to do, to ensure the oil flows.

I am not a liberal anti-war guy but yeah, we have fought wars over oil. We went into Iraq twice because Iraq threatened the flow of oil (that was the real reason). What was the cost of those operations and the subsequent occupation? We are 'close' friends with Saudi Arabia a nation with which we share no common values, because of oil. We protect and police the middle east and its waterways to ensure the flow of oil. We involve ourselves across the planet in the affairs of other nations, and protect global trade lanes, so that the oil may flow. Then add in the oil spills, the disasters (BP Horizon, Exxon Valdez, etc). While we frack massive amounts of oil now, what is the long-term impact to the environment and water tables? I am fine with that when there was no alternative, but we now have an alternative.

The true costs of ICE are massive, and include blood and lives, not just carbon and pollution. By comparison, the rare materials in batteries are recyclable, batteries can be used in 1st and 2nd applications giving them operational life of a decade or more even now, and then they can be recycled. We can get our power from domestic sources, and from the sky. Yes some existing mines are in terrible places, but we can try cleaning them up, and ensuring new mining is done better. We can almost start anew with the supply chains for EVs and do it better. One way is the Lithium Valley in California where lithium is now starting to be extracted from the Salton Sea using clean geothermal energy. It looks like we will be able to extract up to 600,000 tons of it annually from just that location (enough to cover all the US needs for the foreseeable future). And that problematic mineral, Cobalt, that is mined in the Congo by child slave labor, is being used less and less in EVs (and many modern EVs use none), while still being heavily used in gasoline refining to get the sulfur out...

Oil is the blood of economies...but if we have the ability to seriously cut our need for it, and possibly eliminate military operations and disasters - do it. Petroleum will always be valuable for plastics, fertilizer and others things, but if we can dramatically cut our needs for it by removing most transportation on the demand side (most, not all) perhaps we can stop having to police the world. What I love most about EVs is the potential for energy independence in conjunction with renewables/fission/fusion/etc. Domestically produced energy (and in many cases, individually generated solar energy on your home...).

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
9/7/23 2:58 p.m.

I think GM made a mistake by canceling the Chevy Spark. That would be the EV I am looking for. I do see used ones for reasonable prices.

Still waiting to see if the Tesla 2 ever becomes reality. I am amazed there is not more activity in this section of the market.

NorseDave
NorseDave HalfDork
9/7/23 10:12 p.m.

Going alllllll the way back to the first post, the link to the Wolf by Alpha Motor Corp.  I have never in my life heard of Alpha.  And yet, when I look at their slickly-produced website, they have like 19 vehicles!!!?????!!!! 

What's going on here?  Given how much everyone but Tesla has problems simultaneously making EV's and making money making EV's, I have trouble imagining a single one of them will ever be built.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/7/23 10:19 p.m.

Alpha is fantastic at producing renders of really interesting vehicles. They have built at least one,but not many more than that. I don't know if it's an actual functioning vehicle. 

I hope they survive to make a few, because their ideas are excellent. 

NorseDave
NorseDave HalfDork
9/7/23 10:54 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

Alpha is fantastic at producing renders of really interesting vehicles. They have built at least one,but not many more than that. I don't know if it's an actual functioning vehicle. 

I hope they survive to make a few, because their ideas are excellent. 

That's what it looked like.  But producing renders and producing vehicles for sale, well, there's a bit of space between them. 

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/7/23 11:35 p.m.

I'll throw one more thing into the pot: I'd seriously consider a reasonably priced rollerskate. If Chevy would provide the drivetrain, suspension, and drivetrain controls to a Bolt for $15-$2ok where we could drop the body from some classic vehicle on it, or perhaps build something of ones own design, that would be bitchin'. Beats the heck out of the conversion kits currently on the market. The Corvair is about the same wheelbase and track. I'd love to have a Bolvair. Or what about a VW Caddy pickup on that chassis?

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