I'll relay what the Tenneco guy said years ago in an advance auto commercial gathering...
"90% of vehicles that get scrapped out still have their OEM suspension in place."
This is why there isn't much aftermarket anymore outside of specific applications that will make a company money.
Keith Tanner said:boxedfox (Forum Supporter) said:Combine that with the fact that the market for lowering springs is pretty much dead due to the availability of low-cost adjustable height coilover kits (some of which are pretty good), it's tough to justify the manufacturing and tooling costs of making Illuminas and AGX's.
I think that's the problem. I was talking to a Koni rep at the SEMA show last fall and his big concern was how to compete with the junk coilover stuff. People think it's better because it's adjustable and has adjustable preload (don't get me started), but it's mostly junk. Still, everyone seems to have to learn the hard way.
I literally made a post on this forum a few days ago about how my Champcar teammates think coilovers are the better option than the Koni Yellows because of the point differential. The thing is, all the coil over kits that we can fit within out established yearly budget are hot garbage for a 1994 Accord. If we want to dump $2800 into a set of custom coil overs it might be worth something. Both times they've died....it's been at Sebring in the middle of turn 17.
We ran Koni STR.R in the Accord for 2 1/2 years before the fronts finally gave out. That's about 60 race hours give or take. I warrantied them since the car is tagged and insured and we got about 100 hours of the second set and a win at Sebring in our class. I feel Koni is on to something with the STR.Rs but they don't necessarily make them for every application. I'm assuming we are lucky that parts from the Prelude crossover onto the Accord from that vintage.
I hate cheap coilovers juts as much as you and can't stand that people think they are the end all be all. I would only use them in the rear suspension to replicate 1000lbs springs and superstiff shocks because that's whta they feel like.
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
Strut options for BG chassis have all but dried up, with the exception of Monroe, and between the 5 models that make up the platform, there's still a fair number of them rolling around. It's frustrating.
Had to look up BG :) When I had my BF, I modified a set of Protege5 struts to fit. It involved welding on the shock body. At the time, the last stash of 626 KYBs was being parted out on eBay to be used on the GTX. Shocks are one of the most difficult items to source on a badly supported platform.
In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
Hmm I happen to have some rare tokicos on my zx2, wonder how much I can get for them..
Keith Tanner said:I own a 1985 CRX. My only legit suspension option is a set of $2000 Teins or I have to stumble across a set of obsolete Konis. And the Teins only exist because the one aftermarket shop that supports these cars has them made.
I have a video coming up soon on "no, cheap coil overs are not really a good option at all. Get real shocks".
I look forward to this video sir.
In reply to Subscriber-unavailabile :
It's funny you mention that as I'm going to a yard Monday that has a zx2 in to check the suspension on it.
In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
I lucked out when I bought the car it already had them. Didn't know it until after couple months tho, was replacing end links and noticed Tokico stamping! Since then I've swapped in some S/R goodies to make a fun ass beater.
Pretty sure koni reds for a mx3 will fit on other EG chassis, can't remember if it's a direct swap though.
Oh and easiest way to spot an S/R zx2 that has the tokicos is to check speedo. Only S/R models has 150mph clusters
Keith Tanner said:I think that's the problem. I was talking to a Koni rep at the SEMA show last fall and his big concern was how to compete with the junk coilover stuff. People think it's better because it's adjustable and has adjustable preload (don't get me started), but it's mostly junk. Still, everyone seems to have to learn the hard way.
Koni has a lot of work to do if it wants to stay relevant in that market. Their products and marketing strategy look like they've been frozen in time since 2010 and it's really starting to show.
If I was in their position, I would take a good, honest look at their competitors and see what they need to do to make themselves more appealing. Just a few examples of what they could do:
All that positive brand imagery that they built up in the 2000's with the Koni / GC kits is going to wear off at some point. Better shore things up and make sure that you're everyone's first choice before the guys who are currently making junk coilover kits wise up and start producing decent stuff.
In reply to boxedfox (Forum Supporter) :
I've recommended the STR.Ts to a number of people looking for replacement shocks on the GTI forums. As far as I can tell the GC/Koni positive brand imagery is more or less dead.
What I would recommend to Koni is to directly support and sponsor specific enthusiast forums. I head over to the Miata forums every now and then and last I was there they had a guy sponsoring the forum that was peddling junk coilovers, which puts members in an odd spot because it can be perceived that they're damaging their community by calling it out as being garbage.
They might also consider seeking out and consulting with platform specialists when tuning their dampers. I have Sports on my car and while in general I like them, the rear shocks feel like they didn't take the suspension's motion ratio into account when they chose the valving, leading to bizarre handling on soft rebound settings, nor did they take into account the 30 lb anchors VW calls wheels... not enough bump causing harsh bumpstop engagement over potholes or big bumps.
MrFancypants said:In reply to boxedfox (Forum Supporter) :
I've recommended the STR.Ts to a number of people looking for replacement shocks on the GTI forums. As far as I can tell the GC/Koni positive brand imagery is more or less dead.
What I would recommend to Koni is to directly support and sponsor specific enthusiast forums. I head over to the Miata forums every now and then and last I was there they had a guy sponsoring the forum that was peddling junk coilovers, which puts members in an odd spot because it can be perceived that they're damaging their community by calling it out as being garbage.
They might also consider seeking out and consulting with platform specialists when tuning their dampers. I have Sports on my car and while in general I like them, the rear shocks feel like they didn't take the suspension's motion ratio into account when they chose the valving, leading to bizarre handling on soft rebound settings, nor did they take into account the 30 lb anchors VW calls wheels... not enough bump causing harsh bumpstop engagement over potholes or big bumps.
Forums are more or less treading for water and gasping for air because of Facebook groups. I'm glad to see this board healthy but most model or brand specific have pretty low numbers. I would be hesitant to sponsor a forum if I were a business owner. What are the expected returns?
In reply to DirtyBird222 :
Yep. A number of forums for more niche vehicles have disappeared altogether in the past year as hosts decided the lack of traffic wasn't worth the costs. Some of the information lost as a result will never be recovered (the Subaru XT forum comes to mind).
You know times are bad for web forums when iconic examples like VWVortex can now be described as "slow."
pointofdeparture said:In reply to DirtyBird222 :
Yep. A number of forums for more niche vehicles have disappeared altogether in the past year as hosts decided the lack of traffic wasn't worth the costs. Some of the information lost as a result will never be recovered (the Subaru XT forum comes to mind).
You know times are bad for web forums when iconic examples like VWVortex can now be described as "slow."
Not to get too far off topic but its really a shame that this knowledge and car knowledge in general has really not been archived. Little personal story time:
As some may know, I have a 95 Viper. Gen I. The forums that are out there get basically no traffic and they lump Gen I and Gen II together due to looking similar, but they are as different as can be under the skin. When I bought my car, it came with a 3" binder full of printouts of some long-dead Viper forum FAQ, TSBs, and tech info. All really good stuff. Some mods, some vendors, some common trouble points and how to solve them, just like any other old FAQ would have. This info is gone, not in the Wayback machine or anywhere else that I can find. Really a shame.
DirtyBird222 said:MrFancypants said:In reply to boxedfox (Forum Supporter) :
I've recommended the STR.Ts to a number of people looking for replacement shocks on the GTI forums. As far as I can tell the GC/Koni positive brand imagery is more or less dead.
What I would recommend to Koni is to directly support and sponsor specific enthusiast forums. I head over to the Miata forums every now and then and last I was there they had a guy sponsoring the forum that was peddling junk coilovers, which puts members in an odd spot because it can be perceived that they're damaging their community by calling it out as being garbage.
They might also consider seeking out and consulting with platform specialists when tuning their dampers. I have Sports on my car and while in general I like them, the rear shocks feel like they didn't take the suspension's motion ratio into account when they chose the valving, leading to bizarre handling on soft rebound settings, nor did they take into account the 30 lb anchors VW calls wheels... not enough bump causing harsh bumpstop engagement over potholes or big bumps.
Forums are more or less treading for water and gasping for air because of Facebook groups. I'm glad to see this board healthy but most model or brand specific have pretty low numbers. I would be hesitant to sponsor a forum if I were a business owner. What are the expected returns?
There are still plenty of enthusiast forums that are alive and well. A quick look at popular Subaru, Honda, Volkswagen, Corvette, Porsche, Ford, etc. forums show many, many thousands of enthusiasts per day visiting them. TireRack.com sponsors the wheel/tire/suspension forums on a lot of these already, and in my case it's driven some of my dollars their way out of simple gratitude for helping the community.
Companies like Bilstein and Koni are large enough that throwing a few sponsorship dollars out there to a few of them and hiring someone to act as their social media outreach and technical support POC would go a long way towards getting their names back into the minds of enthusiasts. I've seen much smaller, highly focused shops do this kind of thing so I don't see why larger companies couldn't find the value in it. The cherry on top is that all these forum posts start to show up in search engine results when people are researching suspension products, so it's the kind investment that would pay off for literal years.
Honestly, if there was a Bilstein rep that understood my car's needs for my specific use and was able to help me choose the right valving I would absolutely purchase a set of Bilsteins.
The important part is to not allow vendors to spam specific forums with posts that only serve to advertise their product. That's why VWVortex is dead, all the owner conversation was drowned out by streams of "check out this product!" posts.
93gsxturbo said:pointofdeparture said:In reply to DirtyBird222 :
Yep. A number of forums for more niche vehicles have disappeared altogether in the past year as hosts decided the lack of traffic wasn't worth the costs. Some of the information lost as a result will never be recovered (the Subaru XT forum comes to mind).
You know times are bad for web forums when iconic examples like VWVortex can now be described as "slow."
Not to get too far off topic but its really a shame that this knowledge and car knowledge in general has really not been archived. Little personal story time:
As some may know, I have a 95 Viper. Gen I. The forums that are out there get basically no traffic and they lump Gen I and Gen II together due to looking similar, but they are as different as can be under the skin. When I bought my car, it came with a 3" binder full of printouts of some long-dead Viper forum FAQ, TSBs, and tech info. All really good stuff. Some mods, some vendors, some common trouble points and how to solve them, just like any other old FAQ would have. This info is gone, not in the Wayback machine or anywhere else that I can find. Really a shame.
archive.org is a great resource that has helped me track down threads on dead forums. Images might not be there; but, I was able to locate a write-up on how to adjust the brake pedal is a CD5 accord and how to make my own custom tool to do so. Printed that document out, laminated it, and it sits in my tool box for the Champcar.
edit* sometimes you need the direct link to the thread
I mourn the loss of good after market shocks, I finally got some springs for my 1st gen Fit and the only shocks I can find are GR-2 from KYB not aweful, but would have liked options.... I have at least five color options in cheap ebay coil overs, but not in real replacement shocks.
I had to create an account just to comment on my beloved Tokico HP's or "blue's" as they were referred to in the industry. Talk about a great aftermarket shock when paired with the right spring. For me it was the perfect amount of bounce, so that I could hug the curves on nicely paved windy roads, but also daily drive it in a city, which is a big deal if you think about it, all for an affordable price.
My Tokico blue's were paired with blue Sparco lowering springs, yes that's right, Sparco actually made springs back in the 90's before they focused on Racing Seats, Steering Wheels, and Safety accessories.
Anyways, I was fortunate enough to find the Tokico blue's front pair for my newer project. The guy before put H&R springs onto OEM shocks, and it drives way too stiff, like a track car, which is a terrible idea on a public roadway. See if I can't beef up the tire diameter, put the Tokico's on the front, and probably some Bilsteins in the rear. I'm sure it will make a world of difference.
Holy thread resurrection!
But yea I had Tokico D-specs with Race-Comp Engineering Springs on my old 02 wrx wagon. Tack on camber plates, poly bushings, wrx sedan front control arms, a swaybar, and a bunch of other minor stuff ... it wasn't bad. Still not as fun as an NA miata with a cheap flyin miata kit though.
Had To-leako illuminas on my Mkl2 16v GTi. After a few warranty claims they were swapped out for bilstein sports, which were perfect
In reply to MrFancypants :
The forums died because enthusiasts sold them to investors. Investors pushed the advertising to make profits. Enthusiasts got drowned out. This same thing is happening to the enthusiast created parts companies. The same things happened to a lot of small businesses over the past few decades. Small businesses get bought out by people that like money but don't understand the business. The business gets wrung out for max profit. The customers dry up, bankruptcy gets declared. The investors find a new business to repeat the process.
The forums died because they didn't offer the carefully crafted dopamine rush of social media. Sure, they were sold to conglomerates, but it was the departure of the actual forum participants for Facebook etc that killed them. And a huge source of searchable knowledge dried up.
Tokico Illuminas were very reliable in the Miata application. The blue HPs were very short lived and not well valved for Miatas. This is from the viewpoint of someone who sold them and got the warranty claims :)
I think this might be the sort of thing where publishing, or sponsoring reputable educational info might help. Eg. Tests, comparison reviews, data.
Simply saying a shock is higher quality doesn't convince anyone. Prove it to people, convince them. It's a difficult topic for a lot of people to understand, so they'd need to find some straight forward ways to do it.
I just replaced the shocks on my CLS. Crazy amount of $$$ per shock. Like entire Challenge car budjet money Makes me miss the days of regular old shocks.
It's sort of funny looking back at this old thread. Back in 2020 I posted a lament about not finding anything out there for our Accord other than GR2's or OEM. I went with the GR2's, but after 10k miles put the original OEM struts and shocks back in (that I fortunately held on to). The 140k mile Honda (Showa?) units were still better than the new GR2's.
I got me those low down, discontinued, Tokico blues.
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