What happens when you pay someone to work on your car

mel_horn wrote: I'm mildly confused here. What you seem to be describing are two different operations. A Hunter GSP9600 or 9700 (depending on the exact model) is a wheel balancer which uses a loaded roller to measure tire and wheel assembly runout. I would imagine that would be somewhat inconvenient with the car mounted on an alignment rack.

I screwed up the model number of the Hunter alignment system they use - it's a DSP something...

Yeah I guess they should charge $90 vs. $70 if they have to align the car on the wheel balancer

This parts thing has me interested in what the proper etiquette is when you want something particular that the shop isn't going to be able to get through their normal channels. Say, for the sake of argument, I want a Flyin' Miata Stage 2.5 suspension kit installed in my Miata. Should I:

1. Order the kit and take it to my friendly neighborhood shop who can have the car in and out same day;

2. Tell them to order the kit from Flyin' Miata and upcharge me accordingly;

3. Take my car all the way to Colorado and have Keith or one of his cohorts install it; or

4. Get off my lazy @$$ and install it myself.

If the collective wisdom is 4, that's a bit problematic for the suspension. The reason being that my time is worth enough that I'm better off doing my real job, billing one of my clients $x per hour, and paying shop rate of $y per hour (even if y is greater than their "normal" rate it is still <<x) than I am spending z hours doing the install myself. Given that I've never done it before, it'd probably take me all of a Saturday, maybe even a whole weekend. Even then, I've still got to take it to the same shop to get it aligned.

The problem is even more severe in the case of something like a clutch, where I don't have the equipment required to pull a transmission.

I'm not being a smartass, I'm actually curious what the etiquette is.

Incidentally, I recently had my shop install pads I provided on my track car. Normally I do that myself, but I had it in for (among other things) a pre-event tech inspection, and he noted that they were below minimum thickness. I had my spares in the car, and told him to just install those, which he did happily. In fact, he even gave me a break on the labor rate because of some of the other stuff he was doing. I guess I should be grateful that I'm lucky enough to get one of the good ones.

If you have a shop you normally deal with and trust I would ask him. It sounds like you use him regularly. I know my Mechanic would do it for me and some of his other customers, but probably wouldn't do it for most people walking in off the street for the first time.

billy3esq wrote: I'm not being a smartass, I'm actually curious what the etiquette is.

Careful, that's how I got into this discussion... you did mention another good example - the Flyin' Miata stuff.

Reading a few posts here I'm just surprised and I guess very lucky that I've brought my parts to several shops over the years when I was younger and didn't have the tools, garage, time or even the skills to do certain things to my cars. In fact, thinking back a few of the shops always smiled when I pulled in and asked me how my track days were going and how the car is doing and what's going on it next. In other words they were more accommodating because they thought it was cool that I tracked my car as a hobby.

Recently I've used the lift at a BMW mechanic shop a few times and he said all it would cost me is lunch. Of course, I always slip a $20 bill in his pocket along with the lunch despite his resistance.

Thankfully, I now have a full shop (especially with the recent lift addition to the garage) so I do everything whether it's doing clutches, timing belts whatever.

RussellH wrote: Jenseman, I expected a more legitimate reason from you since you are one of the sharper dudes on here. However, I keep hearing the same darned argument that we don't install customer bought parts because we can't guarantee it. I agree with part of it nd that's why I keep repeating put it down in writing and have the customer sign it. If the parts defective, obviously you can't be held responsible but if you installed the clutch plate backwards then it is your fault. But then maybe the real reason is what you pointed out early on i.e. "we truly don't make enough off of the labor alone to keep the place running" and if that's your view then I can't say anything to make you see it from the enthusiast's point of view. However, it's not like every customer you have brings their own parts, it's probably a small percentage of your customer base. Then I hear the arguments about repeat customer, it goes both ways, to make a repeat customer you need to do something extra ordinary for me otherwise you're like any other 100s of shops. Really what does set you apart from the other shops? When you run a business you usually build it on customer service and value-add. So what is it for you? I realize everyone has to make a living but if you don't support the car enthusiasts then you must do it for pure money and not for the love of the automotive culture... Am I still on the GRM board or is this an ASA shop forum?

Let's see: tech's salary. Owner's salary. Support personnel salaries. Benefits for all of those. Shop supplied tools (scanners and their updates are OUTRAGEOUS.) Electric bill. Phone bill. Rent for the building. Shop lifts. Alignment machine (a mid priced one is in the $45K range). Training. Insurance. Etc etc etc. Yeah, $90 an hour evaporates pretty fast.

Then some guy walks in, says 'I wanna save $_____ so how about I supply my own parts and you install them for me?' Lemme see, I'm now gonna call the bank, electric company etc and tell them 'I need to trim a few bux off my bills this month, can ya he'p a brudda out?' Then if something goes sour with the install I'm screwed. Among other things, if I am waiting for Joe Blow to get me another widget and his car is dead on my lift I have now just killed a productive lift until he gets his part to me. Hmmm. I ain't really seeing an upside to all this. We had a case just recently where this kid brought us a 6 cylinder CJ and wanted a Weber carburetor installed, which he supplied. The tech had to fabricate a couple of brackets (I took them home and welded them on my lunch hour), the kid started complaining because we charged him for that and then because we didn't remove the eighty gazillion emissions solenoids, hoses and brackets. We gave him his money back.

billy3esq can tell you a first year ham and egger Esq. can make mincemeat out of a waiver or any other signed agreement pretty damn quick. So like I say I ain't seeing an upside.

benzbaron wrote: Finally if your mechanic does do a totally bitchin job and your car is driving good, give the guy a tip. They don't earn enough money for the amount of trouble people like me put them through.

I was standing in a service shop one day when a very elderly man was picking up a very old and large Cadillac (probably a mid 60s model). The man had a head full of white hair and he had a stub a cigar in his mouth. The mechanic pulled the car around and the gentleman peeled a couple of 20s off a wad of money he had in his pocket and handed it to the mechanic very discreetly. The mechanic thanked him by calling his name. I'm sure this man got the "good" treatment.

RussellH wrote: Jenseman, I expected a more legitimate reason from you since you are one of the sharper dudes on here. However, I keep hearing the same darned argument that we don't install customer bought parts because we can't guarantee it. I agree with part of it nd that's why I keep repeating put it down in writing and have the customer sign it. If the parts defective, obviously you can't be held responsible but if you installed the clutch plate backwards then it is your fault. But then maybe the real reason is what you pointed out early on i.e. "we truly don't make enough off of the labor alone to keep the place running" and if that's your view then I can't say anything to make you see it from the enthusiast's point of view. However, it's not like every customer you have brings their own parts, it's probably a small percentage of your customer base. Then I hear the arguments about repeat customer, it goes both ways, to make a repeat customer you need to do something extra ordinary for me otherwise you're like any other 100s of shops. Really what does set you apart from the other shops? When you run a business you usually build it on customer service and value-add. So what is it for you? I realize everyone has to make a living but if you don't support the car enthusiasts then you must do it for pure money and not for the love of the automotive culture... Am I still on the GRM board or is this an ASA shop forum?

Jumping back in (to everyones dismay HA) RussellH it is not even worth the time to write up that it is all the customers problem blah blah blah etc etc etc if they supply their own parts. Cause in the generalized situation once they see all the restriction you are placing on them and their supplied parts you dont get the job anyway so it is easier to just say NO to customers supplied parts

AGAIN THE STEAK THAT YOU BOUGHT @ THE GROCERY STORE, YOU DO NOT BRING THIS TO THE RESTAURANT DO YOU? AND ASK THEM TO COOK IT FOR YOU? I AM ASKING YOU DIRECTLY RUSSELH !!!!! DO YOU? CAUSE I WANT TO SEE THEIR BOOKS AND HOW THEY STAY ALIVE>

I can tell you, the base shop labor rate does NOT and could NEVER cover the operating costs, ie. insurance, building lease, employee benefits, taxes, equipment, tools and utilities in the Bay Area of California.

That being said, IF the shop has distributorship, agreement or contract with a parts manufacturer/supplier, they do buy at a discount and a good, well managed, well run shop can get away with charging a little more than the customer would get sourcing the parts themselves locally so the convenience of buying them through the shop generally outweighs the slight increase in cost.

The "Name Brand" crap that gets sold on eBay or other online retailers that may or MAY NOT be legitimately that brand, will ALWAYS be cheaper and sometimes WAY cheaper on the surface, but it's unlikely to be cheaper in the long run.

When people complain about the markup on "shop sourced parts", what they don't realize is that EVERY manufacturer has some degree of defect rate in their parts and the markup is also part of the "warranty" price the shop needs in the event they get a defective part from their supplier, to cover the cost of removing and re-installing with a good part, then having to spend the time it takes to manage the RMA process with the supplier. That labor is additional overhead for the shop that can't be "absorbed" with a customer sourced part.

As has been mentioned before, EVERY service business marks up their parts and it's an important element in their business model. Whether it's a restaurant, theater or dry cleaner.

With the current economy and the impact it's having on the automotive world, it's an absolutely necessary component of their ability to remain in the black every month.

When you buy your computer from Dell do you think the first year warranty is really "free"? No, the cost is built into the purchase price.

Again, as has been mentioned, you have to test a shop first with the little things before you start to trust them with the big things.

Think about dating. Did you offer to let her move in with you and open a joint checking account on the first date?

It really is like developing a personal relationship. And this relationship can have almost as much money involved as a marriage...

I consider myself truly blessed that I have an honest, trustworthy, good mechanic. Saurday, I came out of a store and my Sentra would not start. Nothing. Lights were fine, cables OK, it felt like starter neutral switch. AAA to Hardee's in Hollywood FL (Blatent plug) and it was fixed in an hour on Monday for 49.00. There is a plastic pad on the clutch pedal that hits the switch and it broke off. A no-start can be hundreds of expensive things, but these guys just fixed it for cheap. Yeah, too bad there aren't more like this.

The etiquette for me is that if I've got something I need installed and one shop won't install customer parts, I find someone who will—if it's something that I don't want to tackle myself. Now, I'm just talking about stuff like the FM turbo kit, not belts/hoses/etc that the shop would normally be in the business to sell.

Thankfully, that list of things that I don't want to tackle is getting shorter and shorter.

Wally wrote: I'd rather go to the guy who knew I didn't need an alignment.

I guess I assumed that you were going in because you needed an alignment. I pay my guy by time, as it's usually not an easy process.

In response to some of the other posts, I can't see how a shop can really survive at $90/hr without parts. I offer 'tuning services' at $50/hr to individuals and other shops, and I have a very small amount of overhead.

In Per's example, just like everyone he's certainly justified in shopping around until he finds someone willing to take on the job. In most cases when a shop takes on something like that it's because 1) as noted earlier they know the customer well 2) their overhead may be low enough to allow them to do so 3) for whatever other reason they are willing to take the risk. Here's the thing: maybe 4 out of 5 customers have an idea of what is involved and are willing to work with you but #5 looks reasonable up front, turns into a monster and wipes out every dime of profit and bit of goodwill from #'s 1 through 4. Once bitten, twice shy.

BTW, we run into the same thing with salvage yard stuff. We occasionally do used parts for insurance claims (flood jobs, etc) and a couple of times we have gotten bit. The problem: the insurance companies 1) want to dictate the labor for the initial repair, i.e. they want a discount on the labor, say $80 an hour instead of $90 2) they dictate a 25% markup on those used parts then 3) the salvage yard is supposed to pay us for labor if the part is no good. Problem is, most of them want to pay something stupid low like $45 an hour. Not even worth it. BTW, we tell the customer UP FRONT that they are responsible for the difference in labor cost in such a situation. Makes for fun phone calls, don'cha know.

Then the insurance company tells the customer that they no longer get a rental because the part is defective and thus is no longer their concern, the salvage yard says they ain't paying for that because their 'warranty' does not include replacement transportation so Mr and Mrs Customer want us to pay $30/day for a rental. Nope, ain't happening.

But it's the big bad repair shop that gets the bad press and the nasty letters from the lawyers.

audifan wrote: AGAIN THE STEAK THAT YOU BOUGHT @ THE GROCERY STORE, YOU DO NOT BRING THIS TO THE RESTAURANT DO YOU? AND ASK THEM TO COOK IT FOR YOU? I AM ASKING YOU DIRECTLY RUSSELH !!!!! DO YOU? CAUSE I WANT TO SEE THEIR BOOKS AND HOW THEY STAY ALIVE>

Dude, calm down. We have a difference in opinion and you certainly have the right to refuse installing parts and I have the right to take my business to someone that will.

As for the steak, that's as poor of an analogy as mine about the dry-cleaners (go back and read it which I wrote in response to your steak analogy). To me "most" shops provide two separate services i.e. parts and labor. If not, then that's fine, it's your business I can't tell you how to run it but from the other side of a fence it doesn't leave a good impression. Liability wise as I said clearly state, write and have the customer sign and that's that.

Jensenman wrote: In Per's example, just like everyone he's certainly justified in shopping around until he finds someone willing to take on the job...

How's Per's example any different than mine? I guess it pays to be somebody

Per said Flyin' Miata stuff and I said Ohlin shocks. I I'm not talking about bringing radiator hoses and v-belts either...neither did the OP.

But really I'm wondering about $90/hr not being enough...I'm in the wrong business. But then again, even $300/hr won't be enough if your overhead is out of control or if you don't have enough regular business/customers.

Obviously you guys know your business best and you're entitled to run it as you please but I just feel bummed about the fact that people that don't have the skills or tools or a garage are now hostage to the shops who will dictate what parts they can and cannot install on their cars. Next time a plumber shows up to your house think about whether you bought that water heater from him or not...just doesn't seem fair. Anyway, I don't think it's productive to continue beating the dead horse as obviously I can't make you see it my way and I'm not convinced that the rule to buying something online should now be to get it through your mechanic.

RussellH wrote: But really I'm wondering about $90/hr not being enough...I'm in the wrong business.

You said it. Architects who need 6-7 years of college and 3 years as an intern before they can even sit for professional exams, have plenty of overhead, and assume liability for millions of dollars bill out just barely more an hour than that. And they'd be LAUGHED OUT OF THE ROOM if they told a client they had to buy all of their construction materials from them too.

RussellH wrote:

Jensenman wrote: In Per's example, just like everyone he's certainly justified in shopping around until he finds someone willing to take on the job...

How's Per's example any different than mine? I guess it pays to be somebody

It's your perogative as well. Have at it. It's also the shop's perogative to turn down work which won't contribute to the bottom line that keeps the doors open.

RussellH wrote: Per said Flyin' Miata stuff and I said Ohlin shocks. I I'm not talking about bringing radiator hoses and v-belts either...neither did the OP. But really I'm wondering about $90/hr not being enough...I'm in the wrong business. But then again, even $300/hr won't be enough if your overhead is out of control or if you don't have enough regular business/customers.

Overhead can sometimes be a bit tough. Local markets dictate it through cost of living, etc. For instance, the West Coast urban dealers get a LOT more per hour than we over here in Chucktown.

RussellH wrote: Obviously you guys know your business best and you're entitled to run it as you please but I just feel bummed about the fact that people that don't have the skills or tools or a garage are now hostage to the shops who will dictate what parts they can and cannot install on their cars. Next time a plumber shows up to your house think about whether you bought that water heater from him or not...just doesn't seem fair. Anyway, I don't think it's productive to continue beating the dead horse as obviously I can't make you see it my way and I'm not convinced that the rule to buying something online should now be to get it through your mechanic.

Nobody's holding anybody hostage. You don't have to buy their parts, they don't have to install yours.

About the plumber comparison:

Repairing the pipes to a water heater, no problem. Replacing a water heater, well if I was a plumber no way in HELL would I let someone else determine the quality of the stuff I install. I have my reputation to think of.

I order stuff online all the time. Difference is, I also install it and take 100% responsibility for how it works.

I used to work in a BMW shop during college and they subscribed to the philosophy that they could be as inconsistant as they liked on accepting or not accepting customer supplied parts. If a dude walked in off the street with a BMW 740i and a window regulator in his hand, he'd be politely told that we do not install customer supplied parts. If a 5 year customer dropped off his M3 with a trunk full of new suspension components for track day setup, there wouldn't be any questions asked. Mechanics are like restaurants. You have to earn the right to order off the menu. You can't just expect it to be done. I've always gone in and met the mechanics before I brought them any work, and tried to see how interested they were in their work vs. my money. I never tried to negotiate price first, as that immediately puts it in their mind that I'm looking to do component replacement, not diagnosed repair. Also, if they can do the repair for anywhere near the same price as I could source the parts, it behooves me to just let them collect and add the parts. Assuming everything goes well and I like them, I bring them repeat business, some with them sourcing parts, some with me sourcing parts. In the end, a good mechanic will save you alot more money than a cheap component replacer.

Cotton wrote:

car39 wrote:

aussiesmg wrote: I would be challenging them in small claims court, there is no way they can charge you for hours they weren't open. Fight them they are already discredited by this fraudulent charge.

Good luck with small claims. I've won the last two suits I filed for my company and gotten nothing. The state of Connecticut will charge you $35 for court, but does nothing to help you collect. In fact, between loosing paperwork and sloooooooow processing, one claim took over a year just to file.

I was able to collect by freezing their account once we won the judgement. If you paid by check you can look at the cancelled check to see where they bank and what account they used, then you take that info and file more paperwork. We had our money not too long after that. This happened in TN, so things may be different where you live.

In CT, you can file an Order Of Notice for a "show cause" hearing. Have the sheriff serve the notice. You can get the fees back when you nail the guy. The "show cause" hearing means the defendant has to show up and explain why he or she did not pay as agreed. The Court will set another date if necessary or demand payment for you immediately. If the defendant does not pay as agreed, they will become a guest of the state, if you get my drift.

If the sheriff serves the notice and the defendant fails to appear, they forfeit all rights to appeal and potentially enjoy the state's hospitality even sooner. Most states have some legal redress for small claims non-payment. It's a pain but usually more money gets tacked on for fees and your trouble.

Wow. This is alot more discussion than I thought this would inspire.

A few facts: I've done 100% of my own work since the late 70's when I was handed down a 73' Volvo 164. I've rebuilt engines and transmissions and done all the sundry wrenching that comes with liking and owning interesting vehicles. I built all my road race motorcycles and sprint karts, and never had a mechancal DNF.

By profession I'm a Senior Product Designer for good-sized solar energy service company, and have worked around the R&D - prototype - making stuff world for a while. In prior lives I worked in the powersports industry in the parts-service-sales side, and before that I toiled as a bicycle mechanic then service manager then manager of the shop side of a chain of shops. I was known for excellent work and a depp commitment to customer service.

On a regular basis I make parts to prints from sheet metal, bar stock, plastics and composites. I have a lathe, mill, shear, brake, presses, saws, TIG, MIG, gas and plasma at home and at work. To answer whoever implied that I didn't work on my stuff by way of asking what systems I'd worked on the past 6 months: I had the suspension on and off the M3 so many times last spring and early season getting the car dialed that once it was working I dodn't need or care to work on it any more.

The parts in question were all top-shelf stuff; Zionsville full race cooling system w/ a Stewart water pump and all new hoses and wiring kits. New OEM Lemforder front control arms, SPC rear adjustables, Powerflex bushings for front LCAs and upper 4 subframe bushings. Aluminum flywheel and Clutchmasters stg 1 clutch pack. Redline fluids, water wetter, etc. All stuff that fits...

I did mention that I'd bought all the OEM parts as I'd truly intended to complete the work myself and the owner said "that's no problem at all; who's got time anymore?".

It's clear that the work was broken down into many flat rate jobs, many of which included work that was in multiple other jobs.

Example? The car was on a lift with the wheels off. I'd asked for my race pads to be swapped in. I was charged 2.4 hours labor. $238.

I can do this including a wheel swap in the pits at the track in a 1/2 hour using an 18V impact, a floor jack, a 7mm allen key, a flat blade screwdriver and a C-clamp.

I've worked on "stuff" for a living for many years. Bicycles, motorcycles, cars, lab robots, whatever. I'm cognizant of the need to earn a living. If the work was executed remotely as well as I can do it myself, I'd have said $5100 was very expensive but at least the car was done.

It's the fact that I was charged 4 times to R&R the exhaust and driveshaft; that I needed to completely redo the fan wiring; that I needed to replace the broken fusebox. BTW, someone asserted that the hours charged were justified due to several mechanics potentially working at once. Nope. It's flat rate. Job charges X labor, shop does the job how ever they want to maximize profit.

I was charged $100/hr for every hour the shop was open from 8-5 Tuesday-Friday, and the work wasn't stellar.

Just facts.

motomoron wrote: BTW, someone asserted that the hours charged were justified due to several mechanics potentially working at once. Nope. It's flat rate. Job charges X labor, shop does the job how ever they want to maximize profit. I was charged $100/hr for every hour the shop was open from 8-5 Tuesday-Friday, and the work wasn't stellar. Just facts.

Yes it is flat rate but your example assumes everyone worked on the same job. If one mechanic works on your suspension and brakes while another mechanic works on your clutch/flywheel job simultaneously, and each job takes eight hours of book time as an example, you can be charged 16 hours in an eight-hour day. If two simultaneous jobs require removal of a shared component, you should be charged once for the time it takes to R/R said component.

If you go line by line on your bill and find you are charged for R/R of the same component three times, then there is a problem. Perhaps I have not read the previous posts closely enough, but it seems this is the first time we've heard there may be double-billing involved. That is a specific problem to discuss with the shop.

Jensenman wrote: Overhead can sometimes be a bit tough. Local markets dictate it through cost of living, etc. For instance, the West Coast urban dealers get a LOT more per hour than we over here in Chucktown.

Just to give you an idea, most mechanics in Orange County, CA charge $60-90/hr, $90/hr is on the high side if it's a well recognized BMW/Porsche type race shop. If it's a Shell/Goodyear type of a place it's typically $60/hr. And this is just about the snootiest place in all of CA - but on the other hand there're a lot of cars and people here.

Motormon, did you call them back and explained them your displeasure with the service and the cost? At the very least they can explain their side of the story.

RussellH wrote: Just to give you an idea, most mechanics in Orange County, CA charge $60-90/hr, $90/hr is on the high side if it's a well recognized BMW/Porsche type race shop. If it's a Shell/Goodyear type of a place it's typically $60/hr. And this is just about the snootiest place in all of CA - but on the other hand there're a lot of cars and people here.

In LA, typical labor rates are higher than that. Yes, the OC is snooty and I'm sure snoot has some effect on pricing but commercial rents are very high in places like Hollywood, WeHo, Santa Monica and West LA. The rates are lower in the Valley but still very high.

Parts costs are higher here as well, due to the costs involved with shipping into LA. The ultimate nightmare would be a Mercedes dealer in lower Manhattan.

RussellH wrote: I screwed up the model number of the Hunter alignment system they use - it's a DSP something... Yeah I guess they should charge $90 vs. $70 if they have to align the car on the wheel balancer

Now you're getting close. DSP refers to cordless sensors, usually DSP500 or a variation of the number. The basic system is on the console and will be something like WA245 depending on variables like screen size.

Like I said, it all depends on where you are. Atlanta is higher than Charleston, New York is higher than Atlanta but Charleston is higher than the outlying towns.

I have heard unconfirmed rumours of $120/hour in GM dealerships in the San Francisco area.

Jerry From LA wrote:

motomoron wrote: BTW, someone asserted that the hours charged were justified due to several mechanics potentially working at once. Nope. It's flat rate. Job charges X labor, shop does the job how ever they want to maximize profit. I was charged $100/hr for every hour the shop was open from 8-5 Tuesday-Friday, and the work wasn't stellar. Just facts.

Yes it is flat rate but your example assumes everyone worked on the same job. If one mechanic works on your suspension and brakes while another mechanic works on your clutch/flywheel job simultaneously, and each job takes eight hours of book time as an example, you can be charged 16 hours in an eight-hour day. If two simultaneous jobs require removal of a shared component, you should be charged once for the time it takes to R/R said component. If you go line by line on your bill and find you are charged for R/R of the same component three times, then there is a problem. Perhaps I have not read the previous posts closely enough, but it seems this is the first time we've heard there may be double-billing involved. That is a specific problem to discuss with the shop.

Double billing would be justified if a customer-supplied part was defective. Otherwise, no.