I really have to stop reading threads about North Americas most popular motorsport.
I really have to stop reading threads about North Americas most popular motorsport.
kb58 said:I've watched his videos. It's funny to see how annoyed the ICE crowd gets at being beat fair and square on their own turf with their own rules, because an AWD EV is a perfect tool for a fast 1/4 mile time. Now, if this was a trackday event at a road course, it would level the playing field due to EVs being so heavy.
Actually Teslas are remarkably fast at big tracks, having all of the weight down VERY low really helps a lot. I'm sure they go through tires and brakes pretty fast at the track though.
The early cars had a lot of problems with cutting power due to battery temperature after just 1 or 2 laps, but the newer ones have improved that a lot (not totally fixed, but livable). The main challenge to running one at the track these days is charging -- most tracks do not have superchargers on-site and it's a lot easier to bring a few fuel jugs with you than it is to bring a pile of electrons. That said, I saw a bunch of Tesla chargers being installed at Laguna Seca when I was there in July.
I suspect it will be a long time before you see an EV beating a gas-powered car at club-level endurance racing though!
stafford1500 said:I think they should tether all the cars to a central pole with extension cords, like a maypole festival. At some point they will tie themselves into a knot that wont be able to move anymore = Race over.
Or use an overhead grid to deliver power with a return grid in the track, so you'd have bigger, faster bumper cars.
For the time being, though, I don't see any reason NASCAR should consider going electric. The most likely way for electric power to get in would start with local oval tracks if we reach a point where it's possible to buy a ragged out EV for less than a gas powered version and they start to show up in an entry level class, then trickle up. And who knows when or if that will happen.
They're going to run an electric demonstration race in February so they're probably going to have some answers then
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:I suspect it will be a long time before you see an EV beating a gas-powered car at club-level endurance racing though!
Remember there is still a $50k price for winning a Lemons race on EV power, with no budget restrictions at all.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:frenchyd said:And push rods!!! Detroit got rid of flatheads in the 1950's, the whole world is done with pushrods except for Chevy. So until Chevy stops with pushrods does that mean NASCAR still going to use pushrods for another 20 years past that?
Pushrods are only obsolete if you care about horsepower per liter of engine displacement, which is a fairly artificial constraint, created mainly by tax authorities and race class rules. From an engineering perspective, pushrod engines offer more power per engine weight as well as packaging smaller which are much more useful real-world constraints. There's a reason why the LS was so successful, and why Ford's newest truck engine (the 7.3L "godzilla" motor) returns to pushrods.
Our own Calvin Nelson. Has both a 5.3 LS & a 4.2 Atlas. On the same dyno with the same 19 ponds of boost the Atlas is 100 horsepower more than the LS. !!!!
The difference? Pushrods.
MadScientistMatt said:stafford1500 said:I think they should tether all the cars to a central pole with extension cords, like a maypole festival. At some point they will tie themselves into a knot that wont be able to move anymore = Race over.
Or use an overhead grid to deliver power with a return grid in the track, so you'd have bigger, faster bumper cars.
For the time being, though, I don't see any reason NASCAR should consider going electric. The most likely way for electric power to get in would start with local oval tracks if we reach a point where it's possible to buy a ragged out EV for less than a gas powered version and they start to show up in an entry level class, then trickle up. And who knows when or if that will happen.
Local short tracks don't have the money it would take for emergency services and equipment to deal with ev's.
Use E85 and tell everyone you are supporting the corn farmers ,
californiamilleghia said:Use E85 and tell everyone you are supporting the corn farmers ,
What's that about Indycar?
frenchyd said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:frenchyd said:And push rods!!! Detroit got rid of flatheads in the 1950's, the whole world is done with pushrods except for Chevy. So until Chevy stops with pushrods does that mean NASCAR still going to use pushrods for another 20 years past that?
Pushrods are only obsolete if you care about horsepower per liter of engine displacement, which is a fairly artificial constraint, created mainly by tax authorities and race class rules. From an engineering perspective, pushrod engines offer more power per engine weight as well as packaging smaller which are much more useful real-world constraints. There's a reason why the LS was so successful, and why Ford's newest truck engine (the 7.3L "godzilla" motor) returns to pushrods.
Our own Calvin Nelson. Has both a 5.3 LS & a 4.2 Atlas. On the same dyno with the same 19 ponds of boost the Atlas is 100 horsepower more than the LS. !!!!
The difference? Pushrods.
A pound of boost on one engine does not equal a pound of boost on another engine.
In reply to iansane :
Really? You want to go there?
OK as soon as I see pushrods on Formula 1 or Indy cars.
They pretty much banned pushrod motors because they dominated Indy when Mercedes went that rout. So, yeah, he went there.
racerfink said:They pretty much banned pushrod motors because they dominated Indy when Mercedes went that rout. So, yeah, he went there.
Actually they banned the bigger engines allowed by pushrod engines, which was intended to allow production based engines not custom built race motors which the Mercedes most definitely were.
Custom built race engines were reduced to the same size as the rest of the field.
frenchyd said:Our own Calvin Nelson. Has both a 5.3 LS & a 4.2 Atlas. On the same dyno with the same 19 ponds of boost the Atlas is 100 horsepower more than the LS. !!!!
The difference? Pushrods.
Atlas is both physically larger and heavier than even a 6.2L LS, which would also make even more power than the Atlas at that same 19 pounds of boost. The difference? Pushrods.
Power per displacement is an artificial construct that is all but meaningless outside of the bureaucracies that profit from it.
frenchyd said:racerfink said:They pretty much banned pushrod motors because they dominated Indy when Mercedes went that rout. So, yeah, he went there.
Actually they banned the bigger engines allowed by pushrod engines, which was intended to allow production based engines not custom built race motors which the Mercedes most definitely were.
[b]Custom built race engines were reduced to the same size as the rest of the field.[/b]
So your argument is that a pushrod motor had to be reduced in displacement (to the same size) so that it wasn't more powerful than the OHC motor?
racerfink said:So your argument is that a pushrod motor had to be reduced in displacement (to the same size) so that it wasn't more powerful than the OHC motor?
Not exactly. Penske exploited a loophole that was designed to allow the stock-block Buicks to be competitive. And to clarify, they also checked with USAC repeatedly to ensure they were within the rules.
If you have a chance to pick up "Beast" by Jade Gurss, it is a fantastic read. It is unbelieveable what they did to develop that engine...parts on the Concorde to England where the builder would fly his P51 to pick up the parts and bring them back to the shop.
Considering that top speeds/performance have already been limited for safety with restrictor plates on internal combustion engines, with EV's it would be a race where they all quickly shoot to the limited top speed and then shuffle and bump as they all go the same speed and try to pass.
so maybe it wouldn't be a whole lot different. Gamble with your pit stops. Conserve power and skip a pit-in, or go harder and maybe run out of juice at the checkered flag.
It would be weird when i go shopping in daytona across from the track and no longer hear ICE's screaming around the track.
In reply to jmabarone :
I'm well aware of the Mercedes 'stock block' at Indianapolis. Without rehashing his argument, he contradicts himself on the subject.
In reply to racerfink :
It's the exception that proves the rule. Very clever of Mercedes. And while legal at the time it was banned subsequently.
Roger Rager, may have been the inspiration. He took a 350 from a school bus, put it in the 3 year old car he bought cheap and was actually leading the race for a while. I think he wound up 7th or something.
I'll have to look back through the records to see if it may be true. But it makes a wonderful story.
TJL (Forum Supporter) said:Considering that top speeds/performance have already been limited for safety with restrictor plates on internal combustion engines, with EV's it would be a race where they all quickly shoot to the limited top speed and then shuffle and bump as they all go the same speed and try to pass.
so maybe it wouldn't be a whole lot different. Gamble with your pit stops. Conserve power and skip a pit-in, or go harder and maybe run out of juice at the checkered flag.
It would be weird when i go shopping in daytona across from the track and no longer hear ICE's screaming around the track.
That's most likely but would it be enough of a spectacle to attract the same attendance?
considering the (potential) ability for NASCAR.corp to monkey with the race "in real time" via "fan boosts" ($$$), "lower power penalties", and other less transparent software determined power delivery shenanigans that could create drama/tension/come-from-behind storylines... I'm surprised NASCAR isn't salivating at the changeover, and the multitude of ways they can bilk... I mean... monetize their fans' interest/engagement?
frenchyd said:In reply to iansane :
Really? You want to go there?
OK as soon as I see pushrods on Formula 1 or Indy cars.
Rules require overhead cams. Even if they didn't, rules limit displacement, and in that environment the OHC will always be better because it can rev higher.
The point is though, that displacement limits are arbitrary and artificial, there isn't much in the way of engineering reasons for doing it. In race cars it's the sanctioning body, and in street cars it's very often a government tax body saying that cars with more than a certain displacement will incur additional taxes of $7500 or whatever. (why do you think 2.0L is such a popular engine size? There are a lot of countries with laws just like that).
If you get rid of those artificial restrictions and look at the actual engineering tradeoffs, displacement become secondary. What you're REALLY interested in is things like external engine size (packaging -- where will it fit) and engine weight, and pushrod engines have big advantages in both of those categories. I suspect that if you changed F1's rules to say that you could use whatever kind of piston engine you wanted but it was dyno-limited to 800 hp, you'd see pushrod engines show up for weight reasons. (Good luck enforcing that rule, though)
In reply to frenchyd :
No. The noise and rumble is part of the experience. And nascar is running out of ways to attract people to round racing. EV's would attract some new folks, but nowhere near enough to save nascar.
go back to suped up production cars and lose the restrictor plates
In reply to TJL (Forum Supporter) :
They've used lots of ideas to drive them away though...
kb58 said:frenchyd said:look at how fast Tesla's are in auto crossing. there is a UTube guy taking on all off the High dollar sports cars in drag racing and giving himself big handicaps and still beating them...I've watched his videos. It's funny to see how annoyed the ICE crowd gets at being beat fair and square on their own turf with their own rules, because an AWD EV is a perfect tool for a fast 1/4 mile time. Now, if this was a trackday event at a road course, it would level the playing field due to EVs being so heavy.
I admit though that when we get investing in our ways, and something new comes along, many of us instantly conjure up some fictitious situation where the new thing would fail, as a "reason" why our old ways are better. Meanwhile, young people simply embrace it and move forward.
You sure about that trackday stuff? 3rd overall winner of One Lap of America this year was a Tesla.
The top 10 cars aren't slouches, either
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