My first experience dealing with the sanctioning body and I was not impressed. It seemed simple. HPDE in October and I thought, ok it is $100-ish more than the SCCA TNIA event, but I want to get the 71 out of the barn for a while. I contacted them about their HPDE2 event. By their definition:
"Group Two (HPDE-2)
Your instructor has determined you can drive on your own and with less supervision. You apply what you learned in the Group 1 sessions to get more practice. Group 2 is often mixed with Group 1 and is for those drivers that want some more Group 1 seat-time, but do not need an instructor."
So, I send them the resume. Multiple runs at Daytona and Charlotte. (solo) HPDE event (with an instructor) at Daytona. Ride driver for Petty, (don't ask, it's like the flying circus) More years than I can count building and racing cars on the short tracks around the south.
I get an email back that says "Sorry, you do not meet our qualifications for HPDE2, you will have to sign up for HPDE1". Now.. the HPDE1 is $629. I sent the resume back and asked for clarification. Same snide answer. Soooo.. I told them no thanks on the attempted "upsell", and that I'll stay loyal to SCCA. For $629, I can tow the 71 to Charlotte, Carolina Motorsports, or hell even to Laguna. I am less than ten minutes from DIS is why I love our events here, but no way in hell I'll spend that money. And now I hear that the event may not happen at all due to some spat with the SCCA. Go figure.
It's a safety thing. Even if you have gone through their HPDE program and driven solo at their events and then take a couple years off you have to start in HPDE 1 your first time back out on the track so they can check you out and make sure you remember all of their flags procedures, protocols etc. BTDT I started racing in Karts as a kid and I'd already been through HPDE with the SCDA up at Lime Rock when I started going to N.A.S.A. SE events at Road Atlanta and still had to start in HPDE 1 then I took a couple years off and again had to get checked off in HPDE 1 at Sebring the first time back. I haven't been on track in several years and so I'll have to start my first day back in HPDE 1 again when I get back on track and I'm OK with that. It'll force me to review my flags and what not and usually their instructors are very good so they'll make little suggestions for a particular track because they know it so well.
That doesn't sound like a safety thing, it sounds like a money thing. Like people will forget how to drive in a circle unless accompanied?
NOT A TA said:
It's a safety thing. Even if you have gone through their HPDE program and driven solo at their events and then take a couple years off you have to start in HPDE 1 your first time back out on the track so they can check you out and make sure you remember all of their flags procedures, protocols etc. BTDT I started racing in Karts as a kid and I'd already been through HPDE with the SCDA up at Lime Rock when I started going to N.A.S.A. SE events at Road Atlanta and still had to start in HPDE 1 then I took a couple years off and again had to get checked off in HPDE 1 at Sebring the first time back. I haven't been on track in several years and so I'll have to start my first day back in HPDE 1 again when I get back on track and I'm OK with that. It'll force me to review my flags and what not and usually their instructors are very good so they'll make little suggestions for a particular track because they know it so well.
I would buy that... and may have even went for it...had the cost not gone to near $700. It sounds more like a money grab.
Racebrick said:
That doesn't sound like a safety thing, it sounds like a money thing. Like people will forget how to drive in a circle unless accompanied?
NOw granted, I was happy to have an instructor during my first laps at DIS. Having a guy that knew every apex, curb, and bump in the track was well worth whatver hassle it was. Hell, one session he even asked to drive my car (my BRZ) and asked me to ride along with him. It was a good time for sure. But.. as you pointed out, I know the track here pretty well. I could almost recite the turns/apex points to you in my sleep, and to think I would have to pay a near $700 bill to follow a pace car all day.... nope.
The other options are probably better. If you want to feel more "competitive," though, that's where they will catch you. Do you want to "compete," or do you want to have fun driving fast on a track?
Racebrick said:
That doesn't sound like a safety thing, it sounds like a money thing. Like people will forget how to drive in a circle unless accompanied?
When I was going regularly N.A.S.A SE HPDE 1 openings would fill up waaay before events and there'd be a waiting list. I doubt it's primarily a money thing because they'd limit the group size and people didn't get to go. Did you ever memorize all the flags? Could you still remember all of them? Know your hand signals? Lets say you decide you want to pull in the hot pits mid session while going up the hill after 10B at Road Atlanta and want to signal a driver close behind you that's got a faster car and just caught up to you. How do you let them know you're going to slow rather than speed up after the bridge?
Personally I'm glad they do it. Makes me more comfortable on track knowing the rest of the knuckleheads out there with me know what they're doing and have been checked out by an instructor on track before being allowed out solo. This way they're less likely to cause problems that put me or my car at risk. In HPDE a lot of us have very nice and/or expensive cars and families to go home to. It's not "racing" until you move up to TT but some people want to get on track cheap with no real training and seem to think they're proving something. At N.A.S.A. events in the entry level HPDE groups you can end up with a 60's Alpha Romeo, a newish super car, a very expensive pro touring car, a fart can Civic, small block powered brick Volvo, and a couple newish Mustangs and none of them are on track often. And it's definitely not just "driving around in circles".
Daytona is always expensive and NASA does advance pretty fast, but thats a lot of money for hpde. Here's an alternative, not too much money, will probably take you in intermediate where its cheaper than listed and feeds you lunch at the hotel!
https://performancedrivinggroup.com/events/
No Daytona events though.
Interesting, you didn't used to pay extra for Novice group. They literally had to kick me out of Novice kicking and screaming, I'll take a free ride with an instructor any chance I get.
I give them the benefit of the doubt on safety; they really do hold it to a high standard and that is to their credit. The problem is that there are a bunch of other good track day operators down here, and I don't view them to be any less safe. I've driven with them all and for the most part they all do a good job managing driver levels and incidents. With the other operators I also get 30% more track time for 30% less money, the difference is pretty stark. I want to start NASA time trials next year so I'm going to have to go through HPDE 3 and 4, but I'm not looking forward to it to be honest. It would be one thing if you were getting a bunch of instruction at those levels, but it seems like it's just about turning laps and getting experience. I'm currently turning more laps and getting more experience for less money with the other operators. No free lunch I guess...
I think you're confused, the HPDE classes are all the same price on their website. Are you sure you were not just looking at the one day ($399) vs 2 day option ($629)? Unfortunately HPDE 1 doesn't appear to be available for a single day.
For $700 more you could enter a Champcar race at Daytona for 14 hours of fun.
I've never had a great experience with NASA SE either. I try to support all of the sanctioning bodies somehow because more optoins is better but they are def on the bottom of my list in terms of scheduling priorities for track time each year.
In reply to NOT A TA :
To use your example, one would only need to ask those questions to a driver, not witness the driver executing them on track. I'm actually surprised that people still ride along, rather than using video.
HOW DARE THEY!
Obviously they were money grabbing and had no idea how qualified of a solo driver you really were. Snide jerk holes.
I have been doing HPDE for 12 years or so, have done probably 80+ events, and would gladly take the ride along with an instructor if they deemed me not worthy in HPDE 2.
Now if it is an extra 200 bucks, NO CHANCE I would signup.
Here in my region, they allow instructors to ride with HPDE2 students. Not sure why they couldn't have one "check you out" instead of forcing a pricier HPDE1. Meh.
Racebrick said:
In reply to NOT A TA :
To use your example, one would only need to ask those questions to a driver, not witness the driver executing them on track. I'm actually surprised that people still ride along, rather than using video.
They are asked during the first classroom session before the first track session. And they will "test" the HPDE 1 group on track to see if they're paying attention to the flags. I've been out for the last session of the day in HPDE 1 at Road Atlanta and they've thrown a red flag in the middle of the session. If there were students being considered for the move up to HPDE 2 and they passed another flag station they might not be moved up since they obviously weren't checking every flag station (and their instructor would know it was a test).There are things a good instructor will notice during a ride along you wouldn't see in a video. One instructor noticed my left foot braking and questioned me about it. I explained that I ran1/4 midgets for years before I could get a street license. Then mentioned ways of using it for certain corners once he was confident in my use. Another mentioned I might like to take a couple lbs of air out of my tires, so I tried and he was correct. There's a reason even good drivers have "coaches".
I can understand why the OP wasn't allowed to move into the N.A.S.A. solo groups without a checkout unless there is something missing from the 1st post. Maybe there was more information sent to N.A.S.A. about organizations he raced with or attended events run by that wasn't mentioned in the post. No racing school history. No current racing license mentioned. A couple of "I ran my car at _____ ", and just one entry level HPDE at Daytona with a instructor, no mention of whether there was classroom time or what organization it was. No offense meant to Nick but it reads like "Hey they let me on some other tracks without proving myself so you should too". People die doing this stuff for fun. Reducing the risk at reasonable added expense is OK with me.
They're serious about safety in N.A.S.A. SE. A couple marshals came over to my pit between sessions and (in a very nice way) pointed out that I was running routinely about 140 MPH down the back straight in a 40 YO vehicle with minimal personal protection (motorcycle helmet only) and no roll bar, fire systems or anything else. They requested I slow down and/or get proper PPE and safety upgrades for the car before returning. They were right and I knew it so I followed their advice but man that kinda stuff is expensive knowing use will be limited.
VegasNick said:
Racebrick said:
That doesn't sound like a safety thing, it sounds like a money thing. Like people will forget how to drive in a circle unless accompanied?
NOw granted, I was happy to have an instructor during my first laps at DIS. Having a guy that knew every apex, curb, and bump in the track was well worth whatver hassle it was. Hell, one session he even asked to drive my car (my BRZ) and asked me to ride along with him. It was a good time for sure. But.. as you pointed out, I know the track here pretty well. I could almost recite the turns/apex points to you in my sleep, and to think I would have to pay a near $700 bill to follow a pace car all day.... nope.
They use a pace car? Is that something new or temporary due to the covid stuff?
NOT A TA said:
They use a pace car? Is that something new or temporary due to the covid stuff?
Due to covid-19, most track day groups that provide instruction have switched from having instructors in-car to doing lead/follow sessions.
ddavidv
PowerDork
9/12/20 5:36 a.m.
NASA instructor here, though never with SE region.
The price is the same no matter which HPDE group you are in. If you have never run with NASA before they will pretty much put you in Gr 1 your first time out until an instructor approves your move to Gr 2. Lots of people get creative with their 'experience' when trying to sign up for solo. I've observed the occasional Gr 3 person who shouldn't have left Gr 1. They typically have some sort of supercar they are terrified of. We do our best to put folks where they belong.
The cost of HPDE's is a reflection of the cost to rent the track. In my area NJMP is significantly more expensive than Summit Point. Watkins Glen is also an expensive proposition.
SCCA TINA is generally a one day event from what I understand. NASA events are usually weekend ones. You'll get enough track time to be exhausted when you go home the second day. If not, you broke your car. 
In reply to rustomatic :
Honestly, I just wanted to stretch the legs on the 71 for an afternoon.
Olemiss540 said:
HOW DARE THEY!
Obviously they were money grabbing and had no idea how qualified of a solo driver you really were. Snide jerk holes.
I have been doing HPDE for 12 years or so, have done probably 80+ events, and would gladly take the ride along with an instructor if they deemed me not worthy in HPDE 2.
Now if it is an extra 200 bucks, NO CHANCE I would signup.
You NAILED it... I would have gladly had someone ride with me. Double the fun... double the screams of horror going into the horseshoe! My issue was being forced into a nearly double priced deal. That was the core of the entire issue. Didn't hurt my pride one bit to be asked to have someone check me out, it was an insult to be forced into an upsale at the cost of insulting my intelligence.
NOT A TA said:
Racebrick said:
In reply to NOT A TA :
To use your example, one would only need to ask those questions to a driver, not witness the driver executing them on track. I'm actually surprised that people still ride along, rather than using video.
They are asked during the first classroom session before the first track session. And they will "test" the HPDE 1 group on track to see if they're paying attention to the flags. I've been out for the last session of the day in HPDE 1 at Road Atlanta and they've thrown a red flag in the middle of the session. If there were students being considered for the move up to HPDE 2 and they passed another flag station they might not be moved up since they obviously weren't checking every flag station (and their instructor would know it was a test).There are things a good instructor will notice during a ride along you wouldn't see in a video. One instructor noticed my left foot braking and questioned me about it. I explained that I ran1/4 midgets for years before I could get a street license. Then mentioned ways of using it for certain corners once he was confident in my use. Another mentioned I might like to take a couple lbs of air out of my tires, so I tried and he was correct. There's a reason even good drivers have "coaches".
I can understand why the OP wasn't allowed to move into the N.A.S.A. solo groups without a checkout unless there is something missing from the 1st post. Maybe there was more information sent to N.A.S.A. about organizations he raced with or attended events run by that wasn't mentioned in the post. No racing school history. No current racing license mentioned. A couple of "I ran my car at _____ ", and just one entry level HPDE at Daytona with a instructor, no mention of whether there was classroom time or what organization it was. No offense meant to Nick but it reads like "Hey they let me on some other tracks without proving myself so you should too". People die doing this stuff for fun. Reducing the risk at reasonable added expense is OK with me.
They're serious about safety in N.A.S.A. SE. A couple marshals came over to my pit between sessions and (in a very nice way) pointed out that I was running routinely about 140 MPH down the back straight in a 40 YO vehicle with minimal personal protection (motorcycle helmet only) and no roll bar, fire systems or anything else. They requested I slow down and/or get proper PPE and safety upgrades for the car before returning. They were right and I knew it so I followed their advice but man that kinda stuff is expensive knowing use will be limited.
You totally missed my point. Either I didn't clearly articulate it, or I stepped on your God complex somewhere. It was not the point of getting checked out, it is the point that in doing so, the costs go up immensely. Not worth it. And I have seen plenty of guys with a "license" kill themselves. That piece of paper burned up in the car with them, so that argument holds zero weight with me.
Just to remind people- there are other open track day events out there than SCCA and NASA. My club never had instructors- as none of us were willing to risk ourselves sitting with others- other Alfa clubs did. But what group you were in just depended on how fast you ended up going around the track.
Interesting that there's a multi hundred dollar increase due to group the OP was put into.
There is no price increase for different groups
Only a price increase because they are either full or don't offer a single day HPDE 1 group on Friday because I imagine they don't have many or any instructors then. The prices are the same for all groups but the OP wants just 1 day vs 2 day session, hence the price difference.
I'm sure if you did the weekend, they'd send you out for the first session on Saturday with an instructor and if you passed the sniff test, they'd move you right on up ASAP.
