I'll be done with school in weeks and i'm going to be pining for a good summer project so a few of us are trying to plan a lemons build for october NHMS. Ive been reading an article on the reliability of lemons car choices and it's really not quite what i was expecting.
we've got a bunch of widely ranging ideas bouncing around in between us. But i'm curious what you all race, how much you like your decision, and maybe what you wish you'd picked instead. GO!
XJ?
If it were me, it would be a square-body Impala. Ex-cop car if you can find one. The 350 can be stripped down to the essentials, the automatic lasts for 2 million miles, and everything else is built to tank-like spec. I kept them going as a teenage driver. That means a lead foot, an IQ of 12 and no money. If they can survive that, LeMons is no problem.
Boom! Done.
If you're building a car you're planning on only entering in one race, make sure it's reliable and don't modify the power train. Most first-race teams that build something wild end up working on it all weekend. The best first-race efforts I've participated in were stock or had been driven for years with the modifications in place.
I've raced quite a few cars in Lemons. While a super fast car is fun it's expensive to build and run. Something like a Sentra would be reliable and mid-pack speeds while still being fun to drive. Excellent 1st effort car. Same with an early Saturn or Civic. Hondas have a bad rap in Lemons but a lot of that has to do with lack of prep, beating on the car too hard, or bad modifications. Keep it stock and flush all your fluids and don't redline it every shift.
@Pinchvalve: isn't that a Caprice?
pinchvalve wrote: If it were me, it would be a square-body Impala. Ex-cop car if you can find one. The 350 can be stripped down to the essentials, the automatic lasts for 2 million miles, and everything else is built to tank-like spec. I kept them going as a teenage driver. That means a lead foot, an IQ of 12 and no money. If they can survive that, LeMons is no problem.
Seems right but chevy 350s have one of the worst reliability ratings in Lemons. They will do millions of miles of street use but dont like the sustained hoonage of the race track.
OP, find something fun, and different. More and more races are ending up with people waitlisted (NHMS is still ok I think) due to high entry rates and its the boring cars that hit the waitlist pile first. In the lemons world boring is the stuff you'd expect to see on a track like an E30 or miata. Find yourself a Yugo or Toyota Starlet or even a 70s cadillac and you stand a much better chance :)
Find something you'll enjoy and go enjoy it.
1978 Alfa Romeo Alfetta. We wish it had more power. Feels great in the corners, but we get our asses handed to us in any kind of straight line. And parts are a bit difficult to come by at 5:39 on a Saturday afternoon.
We've been kicking around ideas for a backup/secondary car, and were pretty keen on a turbodiesel Benz, just for the lulz. That's why we're in the series though; we don't expect to be competitive, or even fast, but we absolutely refuse to show up in something boring just for the sake of being competitive.
Find something that will make the judges laugh. Also find something that will make you laugh - especially if you're underneath it while it pours hot oil all over your face while not racing.
DO NOT get a 944/E30/Miata, the judges hate them. We've raced a 66 Amazon
and a 75 LTD
and they are both terrible race cars, but excellent Lemons cars. We have durability issues with them we're still working out, but they bring smiles everywhere we go.
Get something you understand and know how to work on. What it actually is is less important. Heck, look at all of the themes on the cars done so you can't actually tell what's underneath anymore.
We raced a 78 Malibu for a few years.
We got it to be quite quick and it cornered REALLY well. It was just a pain to spend that much money on tires and brakes and gas. And it blew up its stock SBC every chance it got. That was with a 5000 rpm redline and NO go fast parts installed. The best finish was 9th at Summit Point last year.
We sold that car to a teamate of ours. He is going to be running at SUmmit point this year.
We now run a boring 1986 Mazda rx7. It sips gas, runs all day, and it handles okay. The malibu actually handled better than this car currently does. I will be fixing that.
Its first race out it finished 6th at Monticello. We used about 2/3 the amount of gas the Mlaibu would have.
We also race a 1980 RX7 in teh Denver area. This car has 7 horsepowers. Maybe 8. However, it FLYS through the corners! It is very easy on tires, gas, etc. WE have not changed teh oil in that car in the last 3 years (not an exaggeration). We plan to go for our 4th race win with that car in June.
I have also raced in a 87 Ford Mustang 2.3T. This car had plenty of power and decent handling. I think it could be a top ten car. However, it is not quite reliable enough at this point.
Soo, to answer the question.... I would choose something rearwheel drive, reliable, medium quick, light, and it must handle well.
The lighter the car is, the heavier your wallet will be.
Rob R.
I'm fairly new at LeMons, this is only my second year. I joined an existing team. We race a Honda Civic wagovan, and the above pictured boat (it's a '94 Chevy S10 with a '71 Seasprite body). They are "slow" as LeMons cars go, but E36 M3 are they fun!!! Build them to turn laps...consistently. Don't worry about top speed. You want to be on the track, not laying under the car wrenching. Our cars are reliable, so we maximize time on the track. So grab something reliable, some good ideas have already been mentioned. Cooling, make sure it won't overheat. Same for the brakes. Then focus on handling.
As for how our cars drive. They're night and day. The wagovan is 4WD. It's extremely predictable and super easy to put it exactly where you want it. It's a great dancing partner. Only "complaint" I have about it is the lack of power. I have my foot to the floor a lot, yet still watch as a clapped out Saturn blows by me. The boat drives like, well, a boat. You have to b!tch slap it around the track. You're more wrestling it than dancing with it. But it'll make you smile ear to ear. And oh...it throws a mean hip check. 
1st-gen saturn SC2. two of the guys on the team were engineers at Saturn before the first car ever hit the streets, and have been racing them in SS and IT ever since. 124hp, reliable as gravity, we get killed on the straights but have been on the podium at Beaverun, MIS, and TWS.
First thing you should do is come on up to NHMS next weekend, and experience it first hand.
Second thing you should do is get your safety gear together and buy an arrive and drive spot on a team. (We occasionally have openings...). Actually being part of the event and driving in it will give you a completely different perspective on the event, and what would be the best way for you to be a part of it.
What are your goals, as you know them now? To run around the track more than anyone else? To bring something obscure/awful/ridiculous and shoot for the top prize (IOE)? To just go out and have some good fun with your buddies and who cares where you finish?? All of these are totally legitimate and good goals, but they certainly play into your car choice. If you want to go fast, you'll need a BMW, Integra, RX7, or something like that. Boring. If you want to go for the gold, you're looking for eastern block stuff, terrible 70's stuff, old detroit iron, french cars, etc, these are awesome. If you just want to run with your buddies, pick the most mundane and reliable car you can reasonably find.
I've done 10 of these so far, been part of the builds for 3 (going on 4), and have raced 8 different cars in Lemons races. All have been class B or C cars. Here's a rundown on my satisfaction with a few of them
-Wartburg: Don't do anything like this for your first build.
-Civic Wagovan 4WD: We had it for free, it is the slightly less boring obscure 4WD version. It is a joy to drive, but oh so slow due to the 4WD. Reliable, as long as you follow a few tricks both in prep and driving.
-Boat: Ridiculous fun, even though it drives like a truck with a boat on it.
-Rolls Royce: I now never want to own a Rolls Royce, but it sure does look good in my driveway.
-Other obscure old british cars (Mini, Moke, Simca 1204, Austin America): fun in their own way, especially the Mini and Moke, but you need to be tapped into the knowledge and parts base to run one well.
We've been lucky with reliability, partially because we hold ourselves to low rev limits (6500 on the Honda, 4400 on the boat's GM 4.3), keeping a little too much of a good oil in the motor, and exercising some mechanical sympathy. We would much rather wrench in the garage at home, so we drive a little tiny bit slower at the track. Someday we will blow something up, but we've been lucky so far.
Overall I'm really happy with what we have, as obviously our goals tend toward the IOE end of the spectrum, and we are doing OK there, and have been doing pretty well in class C lately. We keep trying to make the cars better, and will for a while. It is nice to have the easy car in the Civic that anyone can drive and that has a passenger seat we use for instruction, but it won't ever win anything, which is why we have the other silly cars, really just because we are amused by them, and like to amuse others with them.
As you've read, Lemons reliability isn't like normal car reliability. SBC's blow up because they get revved over 4500, or hopped up, or both. Hondas blow up because they get revved to 7000+ and a lemons grade Honda is usually half blown up when you start, same with Toyotas. Alfas do amazingly well, and RX7s seem to keep running and running. Volvo 240s and Crown Vics also seem to be some of the most reliable cars out there.
So in summary: go to a race to get more data, decide your goals, then pick a car. I happen to know where a mechanically excellent but cosmetically challenged 85 Mercedes 300D turbo is in the Boston area, that could be sold for $500.
Sonic wrote: -Wartburg: Don't do anything like this for your first build.
Don't do anything like this if you want to race. Builds like the Wartburg are for the love of building not for Lemons racing. It ran at Lemons because they gave us the car. I love weird builds and will continue to do them and maybe even Lemons them. But you have to be building for the love of building, not for racing to do anything this stupid.
You can "build" crazy cars which require a lot less effort, engineering and insanity and still seem as nutty as squirrelE36 M3. See the above boat, trailer and to some degree the Spirit of Lemons cessna.
Personally: Fun = fast and reliable. I don't find being a rolling chicane fun. Make it light, keep it simple, preferably with spares. We have not had good luck with 1st gen crxs. Hondas in general seem to assplode a lot.
Don't skimp on brakes or tires. Run ducting for the brakes and good fluid. Keep bailing wire and zip ties handy for on the fly body repairs. Whatever you're running, add baffling to the oil pan. I think oil starvation is what kept killing our hondas.
Keep the car out there cracking off laps. That's the name of the game. Short-shift. Brake early. It's an endurance race, not an autocross.
The Mazda BP motor is apparently in-goddamned-destructable.
My $.02.
Oh, and LeMons and Chump are totally different balls of wax.
We ran a 14 hour on a flooded 91 Integra that got a straight rod from another motor, a set of rings over the honed rusty cylinders, and a set of too large old hard Kumho tires of some sort.
I put PBR metalmaster pads front and rear, which lasted 13 1/2 hours.
Its now a reasonably competitive IT car. I think Dave is thinking about honing the cylinders again...I'd run an Integra again in a heartbeat.
My vote is another 2 door 2WD XJ. Stock drivetrain with all the same suspension and axle mods of the XJ-R. Same paint job too.
Now how many sets of tires and brakes do you guys go though in a weekend?
Smaller cars use less consumables. Sure it might be fun to race a Z28 or Mustang GT, but it will be expensive. Get something that you can find spares easily, be it at junkyards or the auto parts store. Also if you are familar with a certain model, race that.
Make sure your team mates can afford to do this. Just because it's a $500 car doesn't mean it cost's $500. More like $3000 to build the car to be legal. Plus firesuits, radios, and on and on. At least some of the cost's are one time, like the cage, helmet, harness, race seat, firesuit, etc.
Like poopshovel said, don't skimp on brakes or tires. Or any part that is suspect, water pumps, radiator, etc. We neglected those things for our first race and now we laugh at how naive we were. Autozone brake pads do not work for racing. Same for high treadwear tires of unknown origins. Look at what tire the top 10 cars are using, there's a reason. Not that you will finish in the top 10 in your first race, but a car that is stable and predictable makes for more fun and is less tiring to drive.
Our heavy car, the boat, happily gets two races with practice days out of brakes and tires. We run Dunlop star specs, now ZII in 245/40/17 and Carbotech XP8 brakes. The Civic gets three races out of each set of the same, but 205/50/15. Fuel burn is 4.5gph civic, 8 gph boat.
Hrm... I'm going to have a lemons eligible mx6 gt later this summer...
PseudoSport wrote: My vote is another 2 door 2WD XJ. Stock drivetrain with all the same suspension and axle mods of the XJ-R. Same paint job too. Now how many sets of tires and brakes do you guys go though in a weekend?
You could certainly do worse than a reliable car you guys already know well.
We go through one set of tires every 1.5 races on both cars, and we always buy awesome pads because the braking scenario isn't how long they last, it's "the pads last several races" or "the pads melted after two hours" and nothing between. We run Hawk HT-10 or DTC-60.
as one poster said, what is a good car is driven by your goals. MAKE SURE all your team is at least kind of on the same page with these before you start. One jackhole that isn't happy unless he's winning can ruin it if everyone else is a laid back, let's just drive around and hang out type.
as one poster said, what is a good car is driven by your goals. MAKE SURE all your team is at least kind of on the same page with these before you start. One jackhole that isn't happy unless he's winning can ruin it if everyone else is a laid back, let's just drive around and hang out type.
Swank Force One wrote: Hrm... I'm going to have a lemons eligible mx6 gt later this summer...
That would be a blast! Can you build it to make stupid reliable power on a Lemons budget? Lemme drive.
Raced with Tuna55...on a scale of 0 (would never race it again) to 10 (best racing vehicle created yet by Man:
The LTD Landau: 5. Reliable when you use stock Ford components, but then, slow. Handling can be improved greatly. Burns through gas like OPEC doesn't exist and tires are somewhat expensive if you let them be. Good at carrying 40 or 50 people around the paddock while blasting "Hot Rod Lincoln".
The Volvo Amazon: 11. No, really. It's that good. I plan on running another one again, when I can. Super fun light car, more character than most cars that can drive this well, can fix it with a hammer, easy on gas and consumable parts, and the judges loved it.
I also raced with Team Junk Male which runs a Subaru Legacy wagon, RHD with a stick. I rank that car a solid 7.5. Great fun to drive, predictable (once you got accustomed to maneuvering the car from the British side of the car), reliable, but a bit down on power. It needed better rubber, too. Somewhat different- not a lot of Subies in LeMons for some reason.
Also: Cars that still have parts readily available at Autozone are a big plus. "Jeep" is sounding better and better all the time! 
We have, on multiple occasions, robbed parts from the vehicles we drove to the track, crossing our fingers that said parts didn't fail on the race car. Nothing like E-Braking all the way from SC to North Georgia! Finding anything in stock for a 1st gen CRX is pretty much berkeleying impossible.
Just something to consider.
dculberson wrote:Swank Force One wrote: Hrm... I'm going to have a lemons eligible mx6 gt later this summer...That would be a blast! Can you build it to make stupid reliable power on a Lemons budget? Lemme drive.
Probably wouldn't go crazy with the motor. I could get about 220whp and almost 300wtq using all stock stuff, a sheet metal screw, a $5 Lowes boost controller, and a half-assed downpipe.
But i suppose that would probably be a lot of power.
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