WRX checks every one of those boxes.
WRX checks every one of those boxes.
Dietcoke wrote: WRX checks every one of those boxes.
Except the first one. 
Tom_Spangler wrote:Dietcoke wrote: WRX checks every one of those boxes.Except the first one.
Which part? It's a midsize sedan even if its not labeled as such (the 15+ are huge) and the same size as a 3 series with a folding rear seat and an available automatic.
Tom_Spangler wrote:WOW Really Paul? wrote: Also, I'm amazed no one has said it yet, Porsche Cayenne Turbo S? Edit: pg2 noted the regular turbo, but used turbo s should be in the ballpark money wise by now.Fuel mileage is the killer with those.Dark horse throw in would be an s6 v10, it's entirely possible to live with the 5mpg hit if you take the mufflers off.....glorious noises those things make.I have thought about it off and on, but here's the thing. For roughly the same money, you can get a generation newer A6 with the 3.0T that's just as fast, gets much better mileage, and has more of the luxury stuff I want. Plus it has a blower so it's more tunable. Test of the 2007 S6 V10: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2007-audi-s6-vs-bmw-m5-m-b-e63-amg-comparison-test Test of the 2012 A6 3.0T: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2012-audi-a6-30t-quattro-vs-2013-lexus-gs350-comparison-test
Comparing the 2007 with the 2014 is a bit apples and oranges. The older model has a 6 speed automatic that you launch from idle to get that time. The new one has an 8 speed with launch control. It hits from something like 5 grand. Unless you plan to do that all the time (I wouldn't, it's hard on the mechanical bits) I suspect the V10 would be a more satisfying daily drive.
That's without even getting into what happens in each when you drop the hammer at 60 on the interstate to impress the kid in his riced out eclipse.
Have you looked at a VW CC Passat with the 3.6 4motion? Don't underestimate 300hp, they shift along well enough you won't be embarrassed at lights.
Dietcoke wrote:Tom_Spangler wrote:Which part? It's a midsize sedan even if its not labeled as such (the 15+ are huge) and the same size as a 3 series with a folding rear seat and an available automatic.Dietcoke wrote: WRX checks every one of those boxes.Except the first one.
Fair enough, it's bigger than I thought, though not what I'd consider "huge". But the auto is a CVT, and that's a dealbreaker for me.
KyAllroad wrote: Comparing the 2007 with the 2014 is a bit apples and oranges. The older model has a 6 speed automatic that you launch from idle to get that time. The new one has an 8 speed with launch control. It hits from something like 5 grand. Unless you plan to do that all the time (I wouldn't, it's hard on the mechanical bits) I suspect the V10 would be a more satisfying daily drive.
True. It seems like the V10 car should be faster than it is, at least according to that test. I still think I'd prefer the newer car for a DD, though.
Have you looked at a VW CC Passat with the 3.6 4motion? Don't underestimate 300hp, they shift along well enough you won't be embarrassed at lights.
I hadn't, but I just did. Again, I sure wish I could get the wagon. The sedan is downright plain looking. Looks like it only has 280hp in the US, too.
This the Passat wagon the Euro market gets, by the way. Me likey:
<img src="
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Yeah, mine isn't bad.
And as for going/turning/stopping I've raw timed a supercharged factory five cobra with it at our local region. The "280" rating is a little conservative as the Cayenne and Q7 use the same motor and call it 300. Can't have the plebeian station wagon looking like a competitor to the Porsche now can we?
Since we are suggesting obnoxious German sedans that when they break cost the trade deficit to repair.
What about the W-12 Phaeton.
I was in a very similar position about a year ago. I wanted to move up to a luxury sedan but I didn't want to lose any quickness. Like you I felt the Taurus SHO had a really cramped cabin for what it was supposed to be.
After many test drives I went with a 12 A6 with the 3.0T. Full compliment of technological goodies, large rear seat and trunk, and gets going when you step on it (13.6 and 4.8 from some magazine or other). Then I got a tune and supercharger pulley installed. SWMBO swears it's faster than the old 11 5.0 Mustang now.
I did take it out to a few autocrosses last year. I'm not very good so I can't comment too much on it's abilities but it certainly wasn't the car holding me back. Finished in the same spot in the pack I normally do.
Genesis Sedan was a dark horse. They depreciate like crazy for better or worse.
Edit: If you like car specific forums I wasn't impressed with the communities I've seen for the A6. I know that can be a factor.
smartwater wrote: I was in a very similar position about a year ago. I wanted to move up to a luxury sedan but I didn't want to lose any quickness. Like you I felt the Taurus SHO had a really cramped cabin for what it was supposed to be. After many test drives I went with a 12 A6 with the 3.0T. Full compliment of technological goodies, large rear seat and trunk, and gets going when you step on it (13.6 and 4.8 from some magazine or other). Then I got a tune and supercharger pulley installed. SWMBO swears it's faster than the old 11 5.0 Mustang now. I did take it out to a few autocrosses last year. I'm not very good so I can't comment too much on it's abilities but it certainly wasn't the car holding me back. Finished in the same spot in the pack I normally do. Genesis Sedan was a dark horse. They depreciate like crazy for better or worse. Edit: If you like car specific forums I wasn't impressed with the communities I've seen for the A6. I know that can be a factor.
The A6 and Charger are still my two front-runners (different as they are!). Which pulley/tune setup did you use? You don't happen to have any data to see how much performance has improved, do you? Dyno or drag racing, for instance?
Got my eye on this one right now: http://www.audiannarbor.com/used/Audi/2012-Audi-A6-Ann-Arbor-a4be3a860a0e0a6b6dc3cd8af2224648.htm
Tom_Spangler wrote: The A6 and Charger are still my two front-runners (different as they are!). Which pulley/tune setup did you use? You don't happen to have any data to see how much performance has improved, do you? Dyno or drag racing, for instance? Got my eye on this one right now: http://www.audiannarbor.com/used/Audi/2012-Audi-A6-Ann-Arbor-a4be3a860a0e0a6b6dc3cd8af2224648.htm
I went with APR. Have a local installer and it was done in half a day. Pricey up front but the results were worth it. Everything is pricier though.
I wish I had some before data but the only AWD dyno in town was booked 2 months out. Local strip might be opening back up this year. So no data, sorry.
https://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_upgrade_30tfsi_c7.html
Dyno chart looks lofty but butt dyno says it's close.
The one you linked looks pretty good. Top trim line, s line exterior, the cold weather package is awesome and will definitely be appreciated where you are at.
I've only sat in newer Dodges at auto shows and from that they didn't make my test drive list so I can't really help you out there.
Pictures make everything better: 
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=19446&endYear=2017&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=FUSION&showcaseOwnerId=71391&makeCode1=FORD&startYear=2013&firstRecord=0&searchRadius=75&maxPrice=20000&showcaseListingId=416854368&mmt=%5BFORD%5BFUSION%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=419464826&Log=0
AWD Ecoboost Fusion gets my vote.
smartwater wrote: I did take it out to a few autocrosses last year. I'm not very good so I can't comment too much on it's abilities but it certainly wasn't the car holding me back. Finished in the same spot in the pack I normally do.
Autocross is really not the strong point of an Audi sedan. They're big, heavy, especially front heavy, and in stock form lack the alignment capability to take advantage of the suspension design for autox. I ran both my B5 and B6 at the autocross a couple of times, just to see what they would do, and came away disappointed in the experience. I'd far rather run the Miata. Autocrossing an Audi is a chore, autocrossing a Miata is a joy.
The track day I did in the Audi was more fun, at least until it set the brakes on fire and chewed up the tires. :) Once again, heavy, lots of power, no camber adjustability -- stock tires and brakes just aren't up to it. You can build an Audi into a capable track car, but it'll cost a lot and you'll lose a lot of the things that make it an awesome street car.
No experience with the APR blower upgrade kit for the 3.0, but they did seem to be one of the best names around for turbo tunes for a long time. There was some news about financial problems at the company lately, relating to lawsuits and sales, and stuff like that. I don't know any details, but you might want to research before purchasing.
And yes, the forums for Audis are pretty disappointing. The owners of newer cars tend not to be DIYers and mostly favor paying shops to install parts for them.
92dxman wrote: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=19446&endYear=2017&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=FUSION&showcaseOwnerId=71391&makeCode1=FORD&startYear=2013&firstRecord=0&searchRadius=75&maxPrice=20000&showcaseListingId=416854368&mmt=%5BFORD%5BFUSION%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=419464826&Log=0 AWD Ecoboost Fusion gets my vote.
15.7 in the quarter. Not nearly fast enough.
codrus wrote:smartwater wrote: I did take it out to a few autocrosses last year. I'm not very good so I can't comment too much on it's abilities but it certainly wasn't the car holding me back. Finished in the same spot in the pack I normally do.Autocross is really not the strong point of an Audi sedan. They're big, heavy, especially front heavy, and in stock form lack the alignment capability to take advantage of the suspension design for autox. I ran both my B5 and B6 at the autocross a couple of times, just to see what they would do, and came away disappointed in the experience. I'd far rather run the Miata. Autocrossing an Audi is a chore, autocrossing a Miata is a joy. The track day I did in the Audi was more fun, at least until it set the brakes on fire and chewed up the tires. :) Once again, heavy, lots of power, no camber adjustability -- stock tires and brakes just aren't up to it. You can build an Audi into a capable track car, but it'll cost a lot and you'll lose a lot of the things that make it an awesome street car. No experience with the APR blower upgrade kit for the 3.0, but they did seem to be one of the best names around for turbo tunes for a long time. There was some news about financial problems at the company lately, relating to lawsuits and sales, and stuff like that. I don't know any details, but you might want to research before purchasing. And yes, the forums for Audis are pretty disappointing. The owners of newer cars tend not to be DIYers and mostly favor paying shops to install parts for them.
To be fair, literally none of the cars I'm looking at will be particularly good for autocross. They are all way too heavy and big. I'm not looking to win trophies, I just want something I can go out and play with once in a while that won't be a total mess between the cones. Theoretically, I have my E30 for more hardcore autocross and track stuff. If I ever finish it. Presuming I don't sell it.
As far as marque-specific forums, I honestly don't think I've found a good one yet. That's why I mostly hang out here.
Tom_Spangler wrote: To be fair, literally none of the cars I'm looking at will be particularly good for autocross.
There's a difference between good and fun. It's possible to have a stone riot driving while being hopelessly uncompetitive.
Duke wrote:Tom_Spangler wrote: To be fair, literally none of the cars I'm looking at will be particularly good for autocross.There's a difference between *good* and *fun*. It's possible to have a stone riot driving while being hopelessly uncompetitive.
True.
Moves the Charger back up the list. 
Duke wrote:Tom_Spangler wrote:It's an S60, not a V60. But it's $35k with 4-digit mileage on it.Shaun wrote: The Volvo v60 R design fits your list quite well.I really like those, but unfortunately they are ~$50k.
True but you can get a slightly older one for much cheaper. Last May I got my wife a CPO 2012 S60 T6 AWD R-design (the one with 3.0 turbo making 320hp) with about 30kmiles for $25K. Gotta love Volvo CPO, you get factory warranty for 7yrs/100kmiles from the time it was sold new so we got some peace of mind. And the seat..one of the most comfortable yet very supportive seat they have for the R-design. Highly recommended for any long period of driving. And lastly the engine can run on regular fuel, you make slightly less hp but this, and all newer Volvos for that matter, can run on regular but will make peak power with premium fueld. Just my 2 cents.
Cadillac ATS ticks most of your boxes - if going with the 2.0T, look for a later '14 or newer, as the '13s and early '14s had some piston issues.
I’m late to the party on this one here on GRM (Seven days cruising the Caribbean and drinking rum ) Tom and I have been talking about this for essential years, we have a permanent what car e-mail conversation going on between the two of us 
) But he's been serious about this upcoming change since before Xmas. Phase 1 was completed when he sold his F150 and bought the Expedition. When he texted me he he'd traded the F150 against the Expedition I ran to check the news for tectonic shifts and hell freezing over, but surprisingly the earth is still spinning on its axis and the horsemen of the apocalypse were not abroad. Tom without a truck has probably caused a singularity somewhere in the universe and we will all soon be swallowed in a massive black hole.
We’ve talked about his original list ad nauseum and many have commented here so no need to go over and over the list again.
So here’s my $0.05 (my opinion being 2.5 times more important than others $0.02 )
Audi S6 V10. Who cares if it ‘only’ does mid 13’s in the Q. That engine, for god’s sake that engine. Remove some of the resonators and open the glorious noise. Russian roulette is worth it sometimes.
The Japanese offering. Speaking for myself here, I also live in SE Michigan and don’t see the issues with driving a Japanese car here that Tom perceives. Nissan and Toyota both have their NA Engineering centers here and there are billions of boring Acura’s and Lexus around the place, especially my side of town so I don’t see an issue with the country of offering. I do see an issue with the cars mentioned though. I have nothing against Japanese cars. I’ve owned several in my past. I love Miata’s, 350Z’s, FJ’s WRX’s, BRZ’s etc. But the cars mentioned in this thread just don’t hit any emotional buttons. Tom isn’t just looking for a DD, he’s looking for something with some soul, and I just don’t see it in any of the cars mentioned. To me they are all just bland appliances for people who only care about perceived image and not the experience.
Korean, jumping ship from complaining about perceived image in the paragraph above. Kia/Hyundai have come light years in the last decade, but they just wouldn’t be on my shopping list. I think he want’s something with more presence.
BMW. Hmm, they’ve just lost their way to me. There’s nothing in their sedan lineup that holds any appeal anymore. Their styling is awkward, their cost is too high for modern ones and if you want to play Russian roulette with reliability Audi offers far more bang for the buck.
Porsche. Panamera while not only out of the price range the styling is a crime against taste and humanity. I’d rather grow a mullet and wear a wife beater than be seen getting out of that monstrosity. Pepper wagon, I suggested this to him long ago (along with the SRT8 Jeep and Trollblazer SS) but he just doesn’t want an SUV having the Expedition and none of them are that great on rear seat room.
Volvo, swoon, but out of his price range.
MazdaSpeed 6. Too old, doesn’t meet his infotainment requirements. I looked at them new when I got my Volvo in 08 and they felt dated then, let alone now. The new 6’s don’t seem to hit his muscle car specs.
Subaru’s. Seriously? Yeah Scooby’s are fun and I had a thread here a couple of weeks ago about looking for one for my daughter. But no one has ever mentioned Subaru in the same sentence as ‘refinement’, ‘good NVH’ or ‘Interior quality’ they are great cars, but they are always a generation behind the rest of the world in interiors and refinement. I drove the 5th Gen Legacy when it was new and it was a joke. I haven’t driven a 6th gen, but I’ve been inside one and it’s still awful. Subaru’s are cars to wail on and abuse in the dirt and snow, they are not cars for riding in style and refinement.
If I were shopping in this price and category my list would be:
V10 S6 and warranty
XJRS
AMG something
Charger SRT8
Long hard search for an affordable Volvo V60 T6 R design
Wait for the new V6 Fusion Sport
Taurus SHO with a flash
What about a Magnum SRT8 or R/T?
92dxman wrote: What about a Magnum SRT8 or R/T?
I've strongly considered it, but at the end of the day it's just too old, and I don't really trust anything from the late DaimlerChrysler era.
I'm starting to warm up to the idea of the 2017 Fusion Sport.
There is a guy at my office (in SE Michigan) that daily drives a 2nd Gen SRT8 Charger. Looks pretty mean with the snow tires on it 
Have you driven one of the new Charger RTs? Its an absolute riot, the sound alone makes it worth it let alone the cool styling and big smokey burn outs. The AWD system disconnects in warm weather for hoonery
Storz wrote: There is a guy at my office (in SE Michigan) that daily drives a 2nd Gen SRT8 Charger. Looks pretty mean with the snow tires on it
I drove a 2012 model a month or so ago, it was a lot of fun. I didn't like the trans, which is why I want a 2015 model to get the ZF 8-speed. But yeah, it's just a big American boat with a lot of power and great looks. What's not to like?
I'm starting to warm up to the idea of the 2017 Fusion Sport.
I didnt see how you couldnt!
It doesn't have a lot of 'presence' other than being a strong design amid many more boring competitors. It's a better overall car than the SHO and will be faster in all likelihood.
I also very much like the current Charger. It punches way above its price on the presence factor.
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