What wagon? E39 Touring, F31 Touring, Volvo, ???

More vicarious car-shopping fun at GRM!

Trying to decide what pre-all-the-active-driver-aids car to get to replace my wife's Audi Q5 (I'll write all that up when it finishes unfolding). Suffice it to say that between a year with the Q5 plus the loaner Q8 (there are non-driver-aid issues as well), we've tried modern driving assistants, and while non-Audi options may be different, we don't feel like rolling those dice again at this time.

To be clear, quite happy with ABS, TC, DSC, airbags, backup cameras, parking distance sensors, and don't even mind blind-spot alerts so long as they can be made not to beep. It's the active "the car is making inputs" stuff that we've found to be...

F31 BMW ('11-'19ish? 3 series touring):
Anyway, we're leaning toward finding something that we like enough to make it worth the refresh and upkeep. My wife really liked the F30 3-series which were available locally from a car share company for a while. I liked them pretty well, too, and they stand out to me as the best automatic I've ever driven (ZF 8HP IIRC, or a relative, like the GRMers have been talking about putting in their tube chassis car; no mushy feeling at the throttle), and this car will be an automatic, whichever way we go. This is roughly same-era BMW as our F56 Mini, which I've found to be okay to work on (still learning my way around TIS-derived manual, don't like how many single-use fasteners there are if for no other reason than it's a pain to have to inventory and order them all just to do a relatively simple task), with more complexity and tighter packaging than older stuff, but I'm kinda digging working on something new enough all the fasteners still work... Anyhow, I digress.

E39 (turn of the century  5 series touring):
The E39's clearly a bit older and would likely need more up-front work in addition to the over-time degradation. The good news is that these are at or near their nadir of value, I think. In any case, with an eye on having it for a few years, there's budget room in "downgrading" from a '21 Q5 to just drop the thing off at the local indy BMW shop and say "do the laundry list" if I'm not ready to sort it. But that's sort of the idea; preempt everything we know about (bushings, dampers, cooling system) so that a bunch of likely candidates for stuff cropping up in the next few years all just get reset up front.

I like that the E39 predates (I think) much of the "authenticate the new battery to your car" BMW anti-DIY stuff, but I'm also pretty sure there are understood DIY approaches to these things. I already have a Schwaben OBD2 reader with BMW pack for the MINI, and I'm perfectly happy to expand the tools/knowledge as needed. Some of this is just updating my knowledge for slightly more modern tinkering beyond this car...

...and more:
Volvos are compelling for a similar sort of "this is a slightly older but very nice car, with enough aftermarket support to keep it going well." Or so goes the theory. I know a lot less about these than BMWs. The AWD systems I gather on... either side of 2000(?) sounded to be fragile and hard or impossible to replace? If you get one that's working and drive sympathetically, do they go off? What eras lend themselves to long term care and repair? I think either the 850/V70 or V50-sized wagons are worth considering.

Probably the 2, 7, and 9 series Volvos are too archaic, and similarly I'm worried about W123, W124 Mercedes, while newer Mercedes just scare me on the grounds that the zeitgeist suggests they've piled on the complexities and lost the W124-and-earlier focus on solidity, quality, longevity... And a friend had a '9x C-class whose wiring harness's insulation fell off like someone was playing Motorhead at it. But I'm here to ask what to consider, and that includes what I don't know about the cars I don't know much about as well as the stuff I don't know about the cars I know a little more about. I mean, my across the street neighbor (who farms out his car work as far as I know) says he's much happier with the similar-or-slightly-newer Mercs he's replaced his E39-ish BMWs with from a reliability standpoint...

What suggesteth the hive?

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/cars-sale/2004-mazda6-wagon-3500-charlotte-nc-area-mine/275610/page1/

I haven't driven one but having had a K24-powered Accord i'm enamored of the Acura TSX wagon. It won't be as fast as a BMW but should drive plenty nicely and have the maintenance profile of an iron.

Buick. 
roadmaster if you want to go old, regal tourX if you want new. (I think you don't have to get driver aids with it?)

Driver aids were only on the upper trim levels on some models, my 2017 Buick is one of them.  Mid level trim still has heated steering, CarPlay, etc just not adaptive cruise and lane assist.  Not sure about BMW, Volvo etc.  This may open up your options age range.

2020 BMW

Here is what is in ADAP (ZYU)
5AR Traffic Jam Assistant
5AU Driving Assistant Professional
ZML Steering and Lane Control
ZMV Evasion Assist
ZSF Cross Traffic Alert (Front)
ZSM Active Cruise Control w/ Stop and Go ZZR Lane Keep Assistant

Here are the safety features included standard
5AL Active Protection
5AS Driving Assistant
5AV Active Guard - Frontal Collision Warning
ZR7 Cross-Traffic Alert (Rear)
ZWC Collision Warning w/ City Braking
ZWF Lane Departure Warning
ZWM Blind Spot Warning
ZXG Rear Collision Prevention

I would keep going back in age of the vehicle that you like until you see where the features you don't like are not standard.   What?  

In the BMW world, the E39 is pretty DIY friendly.  The computer tools to work on it are all available, documentation for basically everything (both OE BMW docs and other info) is out there, and they're not particularly hard to work on.  No stuff like programming batteries either.  Tech wise they're dated, but you can get updated head units, etc.  And it's just modern enough that if you keep the factory stuff and find an E39 that was at least wired for the factory cell phone integration, you can swap a few parts and get working bluetooth through the factory stereo (for phone calls only, no bluetooth audio streaming). 

The catch with the E39 wagons is that you either get the small 6 or the V8, they never offered the bigger 6 in the US market wagons.  The 6 cylinders have better steering (rack and pinion vs steering box and front vs rear steer knuckles) and no worries about the timing chain guides, but the early 528s have the not so loved GM automatics (and really early ones are a 4spd instead of 5).  The later 525 has the ZF trans (smaller brother to the ZFs used behind the bigger I6 and the V8).  But the 525 has less power than the 528, so I'd expect it to be pretty slow in the wagon.  The 540 will burn a little more gas in exchange for plenty of power, but at some point the timing chain guides will come up as an issue.  And the V8s love to leak oil.  Although if you're buying cheap and willing to put some money into one you could either pre-emptively refresh a 540 and not worry about it for a while, or buy a 525 and swap the bigger M54 from the 530 (and the associated ZF 5HP24 trans). 

The ZF autos (5HP19 in the 525, 5HP24 in the 540) aren't the best feeling transmissions, but they're programmed decently and overall not bad.  The 5HP24 in my E38 740 is north of 200k and has been reliable and while it's not nearly as nice to drive as something like a ZF 8HP, it's far from the worst auto I've driven. 

All E39s are fairly hard on suspension parts, but that's not terrible to freshen up or anything. 

Curious about the driver aids on the Q5 you don't like?  You can't turn them off?  I was able to turn everything off on my '19 golf R.  At some point I'll be replacing my Touareg and something like an Audi SQ8/RSQ8 is on my list but not if I can't turn all the nannies off.

The TSX wagon and IS300 Sportcross have always intrigued me.

I recall seeing a handful on social media that were supercharged, and I love the idea of a rear-wheel-drive wagon with a 2JZ under the hood–even if it is NA.

On the Volvo side, I've been happy with my V50 T5 AWD. Granted, I bought it for winter and hauling use, so it's not perfect, but it's done what I've asked of it and hasn't been too onerous to work on when I've had to. The engine bay is packed tight, but that's pretty common in anything vaguely modern. The interior is pleasant enough, with typically comfortable Volvo seats, and the cargo capacity is useful but not vast; I've hauled fairly big stuff, but sometimes you need to put the front seats well forward to make it fit. I've even had to pull the rear seat bottoms rather than fold them up to buy a few more inches (thankfully, this is extremely easy to do - four bolts and they're out). It drives well on the partially-refreshed stock suspension, and the engine has ample power for normal driving. AWD is a Haldex system, so fairly common and reasonably robust. Mine is a 2006, so driver aids are minimal. I'd buy another, but I'd probably look for one of the larger ones (V70/XC70) first, just for the larger cargo space.

To BMW, no interest in the E91? They seem pretty common, the N52 is the last of the NA BMW inline 6s and generally excellent, and there's tons of support for both maintenance and modification. I have an E82 from that era, and the few driver aids are non-intrusive and can be turned off.

I believe the N20 turbo 4 cylinder in the F31 is pretty notorious for timing chain issues (failing guides, stretching chains) but you might already be familiar with that on the Mini side of things. I haven't really spent anytime in those generation of car though other than my Sister and Brother in-laws F87 M2 comp which to me felt like driving a computer compared to my E90 330i.

If an E91 was added to the list I'd look for something lower mileage and newer  without a turbo (so 328i). It does seem like the last year (2011) of the N52 is the least reliable of them with some catastrophic failures. There is also a VANOS bolt recall where the heads are popping off bolts and making their way down into the oil pan on the later cars too so I'd want to see that work being done and the car have some decent miles put on it since to make sure they didn't screw anything up. My 09 330i is still going strong at 215,000 miles but it is definilty not perfect.

In reply to docwyte :

Hoping not to tangent the thread, but:

I'll write up the Q5 saga later, but the central bits are that the auto-braking can be turned down but not off (apparently)(EDIT: I had this wrong; the auto-brake can be turned off, but you have to go into the infotainment system several menus deep and it turns back on every time you start the car; so technically you can turn it off, but realistically unless VAG-COM or similar can change it, you're stuck with it) and has given us one big false alarm panic stop and a lot of just annoying chasing-the-brakes feel, both in terms of having the car change how quickly it's decelrating if you haven't gone to the brakes, which changes when you would have lifted and when you would otherwise go to the brakes, but possibly also trouble managing friction/regen such that it takes a lot of focus to arrive at a stop at a stop sign.

The loaner Q8 is actually more intrusive, as the auto-lane-centering is over-eager and turns itself back on even if you go into the menus to set it "off." There's a button for it on the end of the turn signal stalk, but that may be even less sticky, and it's a little confusing because the messaging from using that to turn off the centering always references cruise control.

We are not Audi config experts, but after the panic stop and so forth my wife did spend some time at the car's next visit to the shop with a tech helping to try to turn everything off and/or turn its sensitivity as far down as possible. It continues to be annoying. Also silly stuff like "can we not have the the audio warning for parking proximity revert to full volume every time?"

In reply to paddygarcia :

Interesting. I don't have a Honda background or special enthusiasm, but an extra-nice Honda wagon does seem compelling.

In reply to Colin Wood :

Oo... I'd forgotten about the Sportcross; I think I sort of gave up when I found out they were all automatics, but this time that's fine... and so is the lack of supercharger.

In reply to 02Pilot :

I feel silly for low little I know about Volvos, and all I can come up with off the top of my head is that there was a bunch of platform sharing, and IIRC some of the smaller Volvos (especially the C30?) are twins of... Contour? Some Mazda? Anyhow, I need to get my bearings on what's got a common and robust AWD system and what's got a glass bevel drive, if I'm remembering the issue correctly. I think the fuller-size wagon is the ticket, but even a V50 would have way more cargo room than the Mini.

E91: This is why I asked; I think I have a small bias against them because I've seen more around looking especially ratty, and I have a really poorly-defined sense of a dip in BMW quality and interiors that ran some unspecified period. I test drove an E36 a looooong time ago and hated how plasticky the interior felt. I think that era of design was not my thing for a lot of manufacturers. The E39 teeters on that, but I dunno, maybe I'm a sucker for wood trim? Anyway, I got so bored by "modern" BMWs that I had to make a concerted effort to learn to tell E9x and F3x cars apart; they all started to look like some modern blob with kidney-adjacent grille. Having focused up they're obviously quite different, but for a while they just didn't draw my eye much more than a Camry.

In reply to adam525i :

No N20 experience; our Mini's got the B38. Fortunately no real "experience" there either... Er, beyond a broken crank damper and a leaking seal that ate a motor mount. Nothing internal.

Sounds like maybe I should give the E91 some consideration...

I was very lucky to find a 2003 530i (not a Touring) pre-Covid that had just over 120k miles on it.  It's been handed down to my younger son and it's got around 190k on it now.  I've been impressed with the car, and very pleasantly surprised at how well it's holding up.  Just a few little things, dampers, some suspension parts, but it's a very satisfying and dependable drive.

So, I vote E39.  All of the good stuff, none of the nannies.

In reply to Jesse Ransom :

The V50 shares a platform (P1 in Volvo-speak) with the contemporary Mazda 3 and the second gen Ford Focus (Euro only). All the P1s with AWD had a Haldex. I think (take with a large grain of salt) that the P2 got the Haldex in 2004, and all the P3s have it. If you're coming from a Mini, the cargo space will definitely feel substantial. And the 5-cylinder makes nice noises.

Around here, Volvos are thick on the ground, and generally cheap, even when well-maintained. BMW wagons are less common and tend to be pricier, even when they need work. Your market may be quite different, but for me, cheap-but-decent-wagon translated quite clearly to Volvo. The V50 is the first one I've owned, and I've been pleasantly surprised with how much I like it. We'll see if that remains the case after I deal with the A/C leak and the timing belt replacement it's due for later this year.

What about a Infiniti EX35 or 37? Can't be worse than a BMW in reliability. I don't know much about them but I believe they can be had with full timemAWD or RWD. 
 

I imagine, given the time they came out, a EX35 has all the nice stuff and none of the nannies. 
 

I think I'd be after the TSX wagon or the EX35, but my left eye starts to twitch when I even think about European cars, and especially BMWs. I don't want that kinda of heartbreak in my life anymore.

My folks have an F31 Touring and seem happy with it. 

I had been searching for a TSX wagon, but the prices have gone crazy over the last few years.  I currently own two of the others mentioned, an IS300 Sportcross and a 2017 QX50 (same as an EX35/37). 

I really like both.  It is hard to qualify either as a true wagon.  The Sportcross has very little storage and is more of a hatchback.  But it has been great and I love driving it.  My oldest son has been using since he started driving and took it to college.  Some idiot hit it in a parking lot and didn't leave a note.  The damage isn't bad, but it looks like it will be totaled since the bumper cover is NLA.  It's a shame because mechanically it was great and the interior was really nice, but the exterior had seen better days.  But if the payout is too low, I may just get the existing bumper cover "good enough" and repair the rest.  He's in college, it doesn't need to look perfect and I can probably get it passable for under a couple hundred bucks.  But if we do take the payout and somebody wants it for the buyback price, I'd love to get it to save it from the crusher. 

The Infiniti is great.  The 2016/7 QX50 lengthened the wheelbase to give rear passengers more room (a complaint on the earlier ex35/37).  But like the Sportcross, it doesn't provide a huge amount of cargo capacity.  There is a strong argument to just get the G37/Q50 because you don't lose much storage and get better handling.  That said, my 50+ body likes getting into a car that's a little higher and it still handles well.  The later ones have several driver aids, but that can all be turned off.  The surround view is helpful for parking.  The FX/QX70 might be a better call if you need more storage.  Because Nissans/Infinitis depreciate so badly, they are a great deal.  In fact, as much as I hate the thought of buying the same car twice, if the Sportcross gets totalled, I may replace it with another EX/QX for my son because $10-12K gets you a really nice one.  The motor/tranny is pretty much bulletproof, and I haven't really read about any major issues with the rest of the car.  Also note, QX50s after 2017 ARE NOT the same as earlier EX/QX models - they are FWD biased with a CVT.  Totally different vehicle and not well reviewed. 

In reply to Butters :

I have a hard time thinking that a Sportcross wouldn't get picked up if you decide to do a buyback. They're neat cars. 

F31's did get the b48 engine in latter 330 that does not have the timing chain issues of the n20 in the 328.  Though that engine does have more cooling system issues than the n20.  F31's were only available in the US as x drive, the newer transfer cases tend to get a shutter when making tight low speed turns.

I picked up an 11 e91 rwd sport for my wife last year & have been very happy with it.  It has a little bit of deferred maintenance I still need to take care of & a slight torque converter shutter that the gm6 auto is bad about picking up.  The vanos issue is not really new to the later n52, it's that bmw did not fix them in an earlier recall.  The good thing is all are being fixed now

In reply to EchoTreeSix :

Definitely.  My problem is more one of space.  I may post something on the IS forum to see if it can quickly go to somebody that wants it.  The hood, fender and headlight seem to have avoided the damage.  But it is likely a $4-6K vehicle because the paint looks bad and is pretty dinged up.  My parents recently gave me their time-capsule SC400 that occupies the garage and that barely gets driven.  That one is far too nice to have my son take to college.  But it would kill me to think the Sportcross would get crushed.  I think they only sold 3-4000 of them during their brief run in the early 2000s. 

This reminds me, the early ones have the rubberized coating on the dash that turns sticky.  Last year I removed the dash, stripped and painted it to resolve that. 

I'm sure I could pop out the damage and epoxy the tear.  Of course, this week I lose access to the lift in the heated garage at work (retiring from that job).  I think that has a lot to do with me not wanting to deal with it. 

In reply to Jesse Ransom :

I wonder if that stuff is able to be programmed out using Vag Com.

In reply to docwyte :

Good question. And actually, I misspoke on one point after checking with my wife: you can turn off the auto-braking, but it turns back on at every restart and you have to dig into the menus to do it.

We've had too many issues with this thing to want to bother with heavier tools.