What Would Make You Register for the $2018 Challenge

Patrick said:

In reply to LanEvo :

The event isn’t for you then.

That was kind of the point of my post. I was trying to explain why the event isn’t a good fit for me ... even though I think it’s incredibly cool.

What I need at this stage of my driving “career” (ha ha!) is a reliable, safe car that’s reasonably competitive in multiple W2W racing series. That way, I have some options on those rare occasions when I can clear out a full Fri-Sun weekend. Between family obligations and an oppressive work schedule, it’s rare for me to manage that. 

alfadriver said:

IMHO, that's a personal choice.  There are plenty of ways to build a Challenge car that is really good for what you built it for.  

I thought I might pull it off with my TR6 project, but the costs absolutely exploded once I got into it.

I was offered a TR4 project car in full Fred Flintstone condition (non-running; no floors) for free. If I manage to bag that, then I’ll try to build it up as a challenge car. Starting with a $0 car, I should be able to pull it off under budget and still end up with something I could use for vintage racing when I’m done.

I remember seeing in a thread saying Lemons or champ cars were also legal, PERHAPS some autox classes could be added for let's say compairison, or fodder 

GTXVette said:

I remember seeing in a thread saying Lemons or champ cars were also legal, PERHAPS some autox classes could be added for let's say compairison, or fodder 

It's a lot easier to choose it on your own.  The chassis of the car we built was basically a CSP (back then) Spider.  Or at least some of hte part could be quickly bolted back onto it to make it a SP car.  That way you find the car you like, and go down the path you want.

Our second Challenge car was planned to be my vintage race car- I was given a 67 GT JR, and I found a Ebay car that sold for $350 to exactly the same thing.  But I got distracted by a done IT car (and that ended up being a long story mistake).  But the car would have been basically a SM chassis (I had our local rules changed so that a gutted interior is offset by a full cage)- all that would have been unique to the challenge was the turbo motor.  

Someone else could find a C4 vette, and go to town on that...  

My point really being the the cars built to specific classes would likely be too diverse to have classes worthwhile.  And placing high in a car that you take to someplace else and then do well does make for good press for GRM.  Heck, for a few years, I was wanting to make a challenge CSP Miata just to take it tn nationals and get a trophy- given how many people claimed that it could not be done for less than $20k.

ProDarwin said:

Being totally honest?  Nothing.  I have plans that weekend to travel and spread my father's ashes.  If I did not have plans:

A daily driver class is the only way I would compete anytime soon.  Mainly because I'm trying to reduce projects, not create them.  A lot of people here DD challenge-ish budget modified cars.

• value under $2018 (FMV or other community assessment would probably be required for most of these)
• full interior
• passes safety/emissions
• street tires
• etc.

 

I'm already registered with Ashyukun's team, so I'll be there.  I pretty much stopped working on my S10 once the drag was canceled, but am happy to get down to Gainesville to see people, and do a little wrenching.  That said, something like what ProDarwin mentioned seems to come up every few years, and tends to get shouted down as a "participation trophy" class.  I also remember, probably over ten years ago, overhearing a discussion that involved at least one or two members of the editorial staff about concerns the cars were becoming to radical and the potential direction it could take the challenge.  I like the limited rule set right now, and really want to keep seeing radical cars, but I think that a daily driver class would be a good addition, and not just as a one year only special class.  Here's my thinking:

1. The radical builds are fun to watch, but for every person who reads an article about them in the magazine, and says "I could do that", ten more say, "No way am I going to even try to compete against something like that."  Of course, there are also a lot of people who think it's neat to be able to read about them.  I'm one of them, even if I never build something that wild, I like to see them.
2. A daily driver class does not diminish the other cars in the competition in any way.  They're still the "heroes".
3. Increased entries.  I suspect the first year might be a little light (unless the class is heavily promoted), more on that in the next point.  When you have a car that can be driven to the event without needing to be trailered, and not punishing its occupants, more people should be open to competing.  I think the caveman class a few years back was an attempt to do this, but just didn't resonate with many people.
4. Editorial content.  A short article in the challenge issue with a little extra detail the top three cars, and their team's philosophy on choosing the car and the modifications made would be nice, and get read by most subscribers.  I could easily see about a page for car, so it wouldn't even have to take up a ton of space.  Readers, however, would see that article, and think that perhaps they could come down to Florida and compete.  Of the ones who make it, maybe some will even eventually be drawn into building a more competitive car for the overall challenge.

Please note I say the above as a multi-time challenge competitor who is probably done with entering a car myself, as I have too many hobbies and interests to dedicate the effort to building something for the sharp end of the field, but something more casual like this could draw me back in the future.

As for rules, try to keep them simple(Borrowing some from ProDarwin, plus thoughts I've had for years):

1. Full interior (minus a few bits of trim that have been damaged or lost, just need to be reasonable).  Seats can be replaced with DOT legal seats from another car (no race only seats).
2. No radical engine swaps.  Same class of engine as what was in it is okay (B20 in a 92 Integra that originally had a B18, fine, B20 in a Civic that had a D16, no, LS1 in an Integra, hell no).  This one I'm iffy on, but it would be hard to enforce a "no engine swaps at all rule", so might as well just limit it a bit.
3. No adding a turbo or supercharger to a car that doesn't have it from the factory.
4. Stock suspension mounting points and style required.
5. Rubber bushings can be replaced with rubber or polyurethane only, no solid bushings, rod ends, etc. in the suspension or chassis.
6. Bolt in 4 pt roll bar or harness bar is okay, but nothing more. 
7. Has to meet all the other challenge car rules.

There's a danger this could become a Miata class, and it would if the Challenge was autox only.  But, I could see a lot of innovation here, with trying to balance out between the drags and the autox. Between nitrous oxide being allowed, and stock forced-induction cars, there are opportunities for more drag oriented vehicles that can still turn.  The limit on roll bars (this is supposed to be a potential daily driver) will keep cars at or above 11.5s in the drags.  The class's biggest disadvantage would be in the concours, so entrants would need to think very seriously about whether or not to go the "Don't Judge Me" route.  The big concern I had when coming up with rule ideas is to not bog down the staff with scrutineering, so I don't think I'd want to require emissions or sound limit tests, but I think the above rule set would work.  I thought about limiting tire options, but that goes back to dealing with more detailed checking of the cars, and frankly, a spare set of wheels/tires is not that big of a deal for someone to haul to the challenge, and they are simple to install.

I think the rules above would help bring out more entrants.  This would allow someone with a passing interest in sanctioned competition to put together a car that is still able to be driven on the road without too many compromises, and would be usable in some other form of competition, whether it be autocrossing in their SCCA region, or bracket racing at a local drag strip.  And if they decide racing is not for them, they aren't stuck with $2000 piece of garage art.

Calling a class D D's could be of interest for Lot's of people, REALLY the Challenge is a run what ya brung for TopTIME, So you could put them in an Open class, I am more of an All or Nothing Guy  but if it happened it would be 'Onward to Infinity's.'

For me it is simply the distance.  In my mind the spirit of the challenge is the human ingenuity. Seeing what can be done with little and seeing who is the most effective at that. The idea of flying in and buying the first car I could find in budget lacks all of that.  

I remember that it cost Nash several times his challenge build to transport his Honda there and back. I would wind up in the same boat.  Just the cost of fuel, oil changes and motels from attempting to trailer an entry from the other side of the continent would well exceed the cars budget.

I’m a semi veteran of the Challenge. I went to school at UF and came out to spectate several years before ever participating. For me, it’s just about being there, experiencing the event, meeting some new friends, playing with cars, driving hard and admiring the wild builds. 

I’ve entered the Challenge 5 or 6 times now and I don’t think I’ve ever cracked the top 30. I think a lot of people are turned off by the fact that their entry may not perform at the top of the heap. Who gives a E36 M3?  Find a cheap car that you like, tinker with it a little bit, come play, and sell it afterward. Maybe you make a lil money, maybe you lose a lil, but you had a ton of fun. No need to turn it into something that is otherwise useless afterward. 

Of course this is all easy for me to say since Gainesville is about a 2-1/2 hour drive away. My point is just that you don’t have to be competing for the overall win to have a great time!

In reply to Lof8 :

You're making it really difficult for me to not try to make it down if I'm physically able to make it down, even if the tires and brakes on the EGT aren't up to where I would like them to be. 

captdownshift said:

In reply to Lof8 :

You're making it really difficult for me to not try to make it down if I'm physically able to make it down, even if the tires and brakes on the EGT aren't up to where I would like them to be. 

So, um, would the same wheels and tires that fit on an mr2 (4x100) also fit an egt? We'd have to both count them in the budget, but tires sounds like a problem another competitor can solve ...

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Steady work would be my requirement.  Each time I get my schedule and finances settled, there is an upheaval in my personal situation and I cannot pull the trigger.  Someday...

In reply to Robbie :

They would. Budget fitment with the EGT wouldn't be an issue either. I've spend more on wiper blades and wax for it then anything else, though the hatch struts are going to set me back roughly $40. 

In reply to captdownshift :

Cool.  The specific tires and wheel package is still a bit up in the air, but if you get those brakes sorted I'm sure we can get you a set of wheels and tires.

I can even bring a set of 15" EGT "blades" and 14" Miata daisies that I can bring for wheels if there will be access to a tire mounting machine, or starting fluid and lighter...

In reply to captdownshift :

There is a competitor that lives nearby that has a tire mounting/balancing machine...

Contact "A_Florida_Man" for options...

stafford1500 said:

In reply to captdownshift :

There is a competitor that lives nearby that has a tire mounting/balancing machine...

Contact "A_Florida_Man" for options...

oh snap. I need to get in touch!

In reply to Tom Suddard :

I know I'm stroke addled and slow thinking but I'm a bit confused about your initial query. You say what would it take to make you sign up and register and then in the next breath you say no no I'm not looking for more entrants. Is your intent to get people to register early?

I know you are not trying to make the challenge a money maker for the publication. I don't know what your cost to related to renting the site but I doubt the entry fee comes close to anything more then covering hard cost. If I had to guess the entry fee doesn't even come close to covering expense for your staff to man the event, tshirts, participa.t packages, catering, etc.

As far as generating early bird entries perhaps an early bird discount or something of the sort but even if you discounted early entry fees I doubt it would have much impact to save 25 or $50 by registering several months in advance. That being said early entry affording a place at the General Tire challenge cause me to sign up early.

I know I look forward to seeing the past challenge entrants each month in the magazine. Perhaps if you would expand that and include a regular monthly  short story about recent competitors experience with the event or perhaps a first timers account of their take away from last year's event. Or perhaps short first hand accounts of what the event is all about. In addition to the magazine articles on past participants vehicles, perhaps some pictures and narrative of activities in the parking lot, around the hotel pool, Etc might be the impetus to generate some interest. Just to let people know it's not all about who can build the most radical ride

My first entry was a very mediocre build but the overall event atmosphere /experience was very rewarding.  I was warmly welcomed by fellow competitors even with my subpar $984 c4. You need to emphasize that aspect.

bottom line I guess you need to make it a destination event even if you aren't a competitor.

Ovid_and_Flem said:

In reply to Tom Suddard :

I know I'm stroke addled and slow thinking but I'm a bit confused about your initial query. You say what would it take to make you sign up and register and then in the next breath you say no no I'm not looking for more entrants. Is your intent to get people to register early?

I know you are not trying to make the challenge a money maker for the publication. I don't know what your cost to related to renting the site but I doubt the entry fee comes close to anything more then covering hard cost. If I had to guess the entry fee doesn't even come close to covering expense for your staff to man the event, tshirts, participa.t packages, etc.

As far as generating early bird entries perhaps an early bird discount or something of the sort but even if you discounted early entry fees I doubt it would have much impact to save 25 or $50 by registering several months in advance.

I know I look forward to seeing the past challenge entrants each month in the magazine. Perhaps if you would expand that and include a regular monthly  short story about recent competitors experience with the event or perhaps a first timers account of their take away from last year's event. Or perhaps short first hand accounts of what the event is all about. In addition to the magazine articles on past participants vehicles, perhaps some pictures and narrative of activities in the parking lot, around the hotel pool, Etc might be the impetus to generate some interest. Just to let people know it's not all about who can build the most radical ride

My first entry was a very mediocre build but the overall event atmosphere was very rewarding. You need to emphasize that aspect

 

A 'challenge car corner' that is a regular spot in the mag kinda like readers rides or something, and it would feature either a piece of brilliant low buck engineering, a great looking car, a notable competitor, etc. Could be a quick story or just a photo. I would LOVE to see something like that.

In reply to Robbie :

Yup.  You could even do challenge builds in progress from the forum or submitted as short magazine article to motivate people.  The idea of a regular ongoing coverage in grm would likely generate interest.

Couple of other things might be a pit bike Corral or show. Perhaps a small RC car track on the day of the Concours. Open even for people who didn't enter the challenge itself.

Robbie said:

Ovid_and_Flem said:

In reply to Tom Suddard :

I know I'm stroke addled and slow thinking but I'm a bit confused about your initial query. You say what would it take to make you sign up and register and then in the next breath you say no no I'm not looking for more entrants. Is your intent to get people to register early?

I know you are not trying to make the challenge a money maker for the publication. I don't know what your cost to related to renting the site but I doubt the entry fee comes close to anything more then covering hard cost. If I had to guess the entry fee doesn't even come close to covering expense for your staff to man the event, tshirts, participa.t packages, etc.

As far as generating early bird entries perhaps an early bird discount or something of the sort but even if you discounted early entry fees I doubt it would have much impact to save 25 or $50 by registering several months in advance.

I know I look forward to seeing the past challenge entrants each month in the magazine. Perhaps if you would expand that and include a regular monthly  short story about recent competitors experience with the event or perhaps a first timers account of their take away from last year's event. Or perhaps short first hand accounts of what the event is all about. In addition to the magazine articles on past participants vehicles, perhaps some pictures and narrative of activities in the parking lot, around the hotel pool, Etc might be the impetus to generate some interest. Just to let people know it's not all about who can build the most radical ride

My first entry was a very mediocre build but the overall event atmosphere was very rewarding. You need to emphasize that aspect

 

A 'challenge car corner' that is a regular spot in the mag kinda like readers rides or something, and it would feature either a piece of brilliant low buck engineering, a great looking car, a notable competitor, etc. Could be a quick story or just a photo. I would LOVE to see something like that.

You mean like the "Great Moments in Challenge History" segment?   This appears in each issue of GRM.

In reply to Joe Gearin :

Yes.  But expand it a little about atmosphere of the experience.

I've actually dreamed about building a car and participating for years... Hell, over those years, I've probably enthusiastically discussed the concept of the event with dozens of people who probably thought I was just incoherently rambling and wanted me to shut up.

What's funny is that between the buddy I wrench with the most and myself, we have a plethora of options either below or right around the Challenge limit: A $500 Capri XR2 currently getting a "hybrid" Probe and Thunderbird TC turbo, a $2k Spirit R/T, $1800 Daytona Iroc R/T, two almost free AWD 1G DSM's, an optionless bolt on V8 single cab short box Dakota with a total investment around $2k, an $800 AE92 Corolla GT-S, a $2300 LS1 Camaro Z28, an entire spare Capri XR2 drivetrain that could easily be transplanted into a Festiva or old 323 hatch, a 360 Magnum and trans with an OBD1 harness and multiple spare ECU's that could go in some old smaller 318/360 Mopar or another lightweight Dakota, two garages bursting at the seams with parts and miscellaneous junk for and from Turbo Mopars/Fazdas/4G63/MHI and IHI turbos/Mopar Magnum V8s/LS engines/Cobalt-Ion-LSJ cars/unused intercoolers, plumbing, exhaust, etc etc... On top of that, I just parted out a complete Cobalt SS/SC that with a cheap junkyard Saab 9-3 longblock would've left a ton of budget to make it more competitive in drag and autocross ...

All that said, the biggest things stopping me are: Time of year, distance/location and expense (for travel/etc.) .

-Just looking at the drive on Google Maps, I'd be looking at 4 days total for travel to and back, and 35+ hours of seat time. Given the Challenge-worthy vehicles I currently own and/or projects I'd potentially build, towing would probably be the smartest option. Since I don't have a truck (that I would want to tow with) or a trailer, I'd either need to purchase them for myself or rent them, both of which are factors in the "expense" column.

-Since it's in Florida in the middle of fall, I see two outcomes adding somewhat to expenses or maybe taking away some sanity? Given the location and time of year, my GF will:

A. Most likely want to tag along. Her attendance is fine with me, however we can't seem to ever find someone to watch or take in our two furry children if we are both going away. I certainly would not want to bring them with us, so we would have to pay to have them boarded over the 6ish days we're gone, which gets expensive...

B. Possibly not be able to go for whatever reason and potentially be sour about it because it's Florida.... This one's a double edged sword. It would make my trip cheaper since she'd be home with the dogs, and obviously one less person, but I know for a while I'd get an endless guilt storm and somehow have to make up for the fact that I got to go "on vacation" to Florida (which would likely add to expenses ). Then again, if I drove one of my cheap cars that she despises... Did I just solve this and the tow expense issue?

Choice B would be a complete non-factor if the event was somewhere like BFE Ohio/Indiana/PA/etc. as she would have zero interest in coming along, which then saves me expense on dog boarding and all that.

I will say that if it was and had always been in that general area, I'd like to think I probably would have by now become a regular attendee and participant.

The time of year is a smaller one. Usually in fall, we get busy at my company with travel and such, making it harder to take time off.

Regardless of all that, one of these years I WILL attend, just can't put finger on when.

In reply to Joe Gearin :

Yes, just like that, but you don't have to feature a car. You could feature someone's crazy active aero mod. Or maybe feature something that happens at the challenge, like brats in the parking lot, or the valve cover racing winner. Or maybe feature one of the people who regularly attends and has brought many builds. Or maybe an oft-misunderstood rule and a good example of a team that handled it.

In reply to shelbyz :

for most people, KISS is the way to go.  So that you KNOW you will get done, and hopefully with enough time to debug.

Pre 30 days out entry price with a free banquet guest? 4 birthdays, sons braces, daughters baby shower, preparing for Christmas and the challenge happen all in the span of like 2.5 months