What would you do?- ebay ethics q

So I'm going to look at a vintage Volvo. The pictures look good. The car is represented in a positive light except for some light rust. The seller is supposed to meet me at his work, but nobody's there. I leave a couple messages, then start home. A couple miles down the road, the seller calls me and explains that he's hurt his knee and is waiting to be helped at a hospital. He gives me his home address, and says that the car is unlocked and I can check it out.

It looks like a roughly 10 YO restoration. engine compartment and interior look good, but there's flaking bondo and a good bit of rust. The body's a lot rougher than it looks from 30 feet. I look at the undercarriage in a couple of places and..... The front subframe is cracked and failing at the unibody connection. It's not a hairline, but a fissure. Unless I'm seriously missing something, this car is in danger of having it's front end colapse!

The seller sounded like a really nice guy on the phone. But he's selling a car that is not merely rough in places. It's dangerous. What was I to do? The bidding was to end in about 4 hours. He said that he'd only had the car for three weeks, which suggests that he found the problem and didn't want to deal with it, and was passing it to the next shmuck down the line. After some consideration, I decided that it wasn't my duty to be a cop, so I simply texed him something along the lines of: "Your car has a broken frame. Prospective buyers should be informed of this."

So GRM bretheren, I ask you: Did I do the right thing? Or should I have been more active? Does it make any sense for me to contact ebay and inform them so that they may in turn pass the word to the winning bidder? I don't want to start a E36 M3storm, but I feel sorry for the next owner, and even suspect that the entire injured-and-in-a-hospital may have been a ruse to avoid meeting me.

This is a tough one because you don't have many options. E-Bay will do nothing. The classic advice is Buyer Beware. But you have nothing to lose by sending a very stronly worded message that selling an obviously dangerous vehicle can/ will result in major lawsuit problems. I don't think "As is-where is" protects from gross fraud. Even if he prevails in court, he will have to spend major bucks on defense, and if ignores it, he will have a major settlement to deal with. I wonder if BillyESQ wants to join in on this.

What you have already done was the first step. I don't know the procedure with eBay (I started this before the above post was posted...)but you might consider contacting them. You may well save someone some money.

If a prospective buyer of a 45-year-old Volvo doesn't give the car a full look-over (where frame damage like this would be noticed), then it serves the person right, to some extent. Buying any car, especially something vintage, on ebay is always a risk that should be avoided, IMO.

As for me, I think you went far enough. Maybe the guy didn't know and now he does. If he did know, he's just gonna cover it up in the future and say "car as-is" or whatever....No matter if you tell ebay or not, he can simply put a new listing up saying "car has some problems, sold as-is" and not go into detail at all, if he so desires....

Having been on both ends of this stick, I think what you did was fine. eBay will do nothing, so always look at a car before buying, like you did. With the age of the car, I think it is and should be buyer beware.

BBC

You did fine.

I'm not sure the seller even has an obligation to tell people. If he is not personally aware of the problem, a test from a stranger whom he never met doesn't really even count as facts, just an opinion.

Unless he DID know. THAT would be a COMPLETELY different scenario.

Thanks for the feedback. It was hard not to do more. It really is a cautionary tale. Given that I'm in the metal fab business, fixing it wouldn't be very tough, but if it failed in one place, who knows what other surprises lurk. I'm sure that I won't buy an older car sight unseen though!

Yeah, I think you did fine.

But it would be interesting to see if the car gets reposted and still doesn't mention the problem. At that point, the seller can't claim to not know about it, since you kindly brought it to his attention... I'm not suggesting you watch eBay specifically for this to happen, but if you happen to discover this situation, well, that'll be an interesting day...

He may not know that it was in that bad of shape. Notifying him of the issue was the correct tact. What he does with that knowledge is up to him.

kreb wrote: which suggests that he found the problem and didn't want to deal with it, and was passing it to the next shmuck down the line.

You're making a very big, accusatory assumption here...

Don't worry about it, if its not in the shape as advertised, the person that is the high bidder will contact ebay and inform them of the situation, he will get negative feedback and everything will work out.

Andrew

plance1 wrote:

kreb wrote: which suggests that he found the problem and didn't want to deal with it, and was passing it to the next shmuck down the line.

You're making a very big, accusatory assumption here...

suggest: to offer for consideration or as a hypothesis

accuse: to charge with a fault or offense

I offered up the first. Perhaps it sounded too much like the second. I have no way of knowing, do I?

As someone who's had a bad deal on Ebay, I want to say you should report him immediately and then he should be beaten with a shoe.

However, I understand that ebay is a risk. If the seller is selling it as is, and the buyer doesn't want to inspect it, that's they're choice. I think you did the right thing.

You made three assumptions which sound very close to accusations, when you string three in a row that compounds it. 1.)" ...which suggests that he found the problem." Did he? Are you 100% positive? How could you be? When I sell a car I tell everyone every defect I can think of so I could never be accused of not giving out all of the info. Still, some things fall through the cracks, (especially with a car that old), don't get put in the ad or end up truely not noticed by an owner. 2.) "...didn't want to deal with it." Maybe something, like a medical emergency or sudden job loss (which happened to me and I was in the same boat with a car I just purchased, nothing shady at all, just circumstances popped up after buying it) 3.)"....and was passing it to the next shmuck down the line..." Again, are you 100% sure that he had bad intentions that you are hinting at?

I applaud you for your handling of the situation and of course for your observation and street smarts. But I have jumped the gun and made assumptions along the same lines you have and regretted it soon afterwards. We are all on here to learn from each other so learn from my mistakes. I think if the guy didn't note his ad after you notified him (and maybe Ebay makes that impossible with only a few hours to go, I know when I have gone to note an ad late in the game, I think I recall being unable to do so) that is the real indicator of whether he is trying to scam people.

kreb wrote: even suspect that the entire injured-and-in-a-hospital may have been a ruse to avoid meeting me.

I just went back and reread your post and dang it if I didn't find another assumption about this guy trying to hoodwink you.... my you have a vivid imagination!

In all seriousness, if the car didn't have the cracked frame, would you really be interested in it? I ask because, couldn't the frame just be repaired, rewelded?

In reply to plance1: Hmmmm, I could have chosen my words better. This is true. I certainly don't want to add to a negative situation. If the seller is just incautious and/or unobservant and there is no ill intent, so be it. FWIW the seller did not add any note to his advertisment after I texted him. Although he may have had his hands full with the injury.

By the way, it would be crazy to try and simply weld the crack back together. You have heavily rusted metal. To do the job right will take careful checking to make sure that the chasis isn't twisted, then you'd want to reinforce both sides considerably. And yes, I'd be interested in it whether or not the frame was damaged. But I'd expect to pay a good bit less for the broken version.

Plance1, you don't happen to have a Volvo with a rusty cracked frame for sale on eBay do you?...

Joey

no, I do have a volvo though but Im afraid to look at the frame!

Postcript: The Volvo is now on CL for less $$ than the winning e-bay bid. No mention of frame issues though.