What's it like living with a Jeep?

So I'm looking at upgrading shortly to a 2 vehicle fleet for the first time in my life. The idea is to buy something that can be driven in crappy weather and generally reduce the milage I put on my current and only car, a 98 Camaro. Another big plus is something that I can take out wheelin', since my special lady friend has expressed some interest in that and I would love to get her into some car related hobby.

So what I've been looking for is something reliable in the $3-12k range with 4wd and a manual tranny, preferably with a truckbed and halfway OK gas milage, that I can drive in the winter and to work a few days a week. I will be financing whatever I buy since my CU is awesome and I don't want to lay out much cash right now, but can easily afford the payments. I've been looking at Toyotas a lot (Tacos, 4runners, and I even got pretty serious about a Land Cruiser), various domestic trucks, XJs, ect but recently i've been gravitating more towards a Wrangler. A big part of me keeps saying eff it, I'm in my mid 20s, let's buy as impractical vehicle as I can stand for the purpose.

One of my best friends in College had a YJ for a while with a totally clapped out 4, 3 speed auto, and a soft top, which is my only extensive firsthand experience with a Jeep. It was the slowest thing I've ever driven (55mph tops, foot on the floor, into a head wind on a slight uphill), rode like crap, got crap milage, and the crappy soft top flapped enough on the highway to induce a migraine within a half hour. But it was awesome in so many ways and ever since I've wanted to have one at some point in my life.

I drove a TJ a couple weeks back with a hardtop, 5 speed, and the 4.0. I had forgotten how ridiculously primitive the driving experience is, in the most charming way possible, and now I'm pretty sure I think I want one. I think I would be able to live with either a TJ or YJ, but the 6 cyl and 5 speed are a must, full doors too, along with the hardtop unless a TJ's is vastly better than a YJ's.

So what I am looking for is not so much the technical specifics of Jeep ownership, although I will accept that also, but more the 'experiential' side. Does the Jeep charm last or will it eventually wear off? What's it really like to live with one on a daily basis? What makes you absolutely love or hate your Jeep?

Ive read enough on the Jeep forums, now I am really interested to hear a GRMer's take...

Ig the top speed of your friends YJ was that low, the catalytic converter was clogged. Very common with YJs.
I've had something like 14 Jeeps, ranging from a 46 willy's to wagoneers and grand cherokees. Count lots of short wheelbase Jeeps in there. Others will tell you they ride rough. Oh do they! The TJs ride better, but that's like saying Hitler was better than Mussolini. Anyway, they ride rough, they get poor mileage, are small, loud, crude, and the best thing on 4 wheels!
Does your girlfriend have long hair? If so, she'll have to keep in in a hat, and said hat on her head while driving or it'll be all tangled up.
They are easy to work on, have GREAT community support, parts are cheap and plentiful, and are the most fun you can have while driving the speed limit.
They rust though. Check the frame behind the rear wheels.
For me, driving a YJ, CJ, or TJ did get a little old now and again. But when that happened, I'd just go hit a trail for an afternoon and I'd be in love again. Get it. You're young, do it now.

For crappy weather you want something that doesn't have a nearly square footprint. That short wheelbase on the Wrangler can be a real handful.

I dd'ed a TJ Wrangler with a 4.0L and 5 speed from 1999 when I bought it till my son totaled it in 2005. I had full doors and a hardtop. In the summer, I took the hardtop off and ran with a bimini top only and used a cockpit cover when I was at work and it was parked outside. Getting caught in downpours were sometimes fun like when on the way to the beach, but other times kind of sucked, like on the way to work and showing up all wet. I had Wet Okole seat covers and removed all the carpet and drain plugs when the top was off.

I didn't get tired of it. It was fun to buy new stuff and put it on there. It was fun to take it offroad. It was fun to be involved in Jeep waves. I had to replace the exhaust manifold due to cracking, but that was just a good excuse to get a header. They are fun cars.

In reply to DrBoost:

Those last couple lines are kind of the push over the edge I want

I wouldn't doubt my buddies Jeep had a plugged cat, and probably 2\3 the original compression to boot. His dad owned it previously and there was some story about a 60,000 mile oil change interval or something to that effect...

Funny you mention the girlfriend's hair. She absolutely hates any other sort of convertible for that very reason, but still loves Jeeps. And yes, she has actually been around one before, her dad had a TJ at some point in time.

What you want is an xj, all the perks of a "jeep" jeep but with the added benefit of a solid roof, 4 doors (or two obviously), and two jeeps one xj the other "jeep" similar year and miles the xj will be half the price.

Have had a '97 TJ since '99. It's the one you don't want, 2.5l with an automatic. I DD'd it from '99 to '07-ish, and I still drive it on occasion, but I've become a bit more risk adverse as I've aged.

Short wheel base on snow/ice is fun but mostly just in parking lots where you actually want to do donuts. It gets even more interesting when you put a locker in the rear.

The ride is rough, no bones about it, solid axles, "truck" suspension, etc. Strong cross winds toss it about more than you'd ever imagine, and a light head wind will slow down the 4 banger even more. Soft top is loose, and loud, even the thicker "sail cloth" tops make a lot of wind and road noise. I'm on my 3rd soft top, including the original. If you go soft top at least get full steel doors, a lot of noise comes from the soft upper half doors. Don't plan on having a conversation without yelling at freeway speeds. They have to be the worst for NVH. If you pull the carpet expect toasty floors. Chances are any used one will be modified in some form or fashion, usually in the cheapest way possible, cheap lift kits, poor installation, and worn parts lead to all kinds of suspension/steering issues, i.e. bump steer, drive line vibration, death wobble, etc. Most are "offroaded" mud gets in everything, I mean everything.

With all the bad, there's nothing like them, they get under your skin, and are a lot of fun. Top down on a warm day, bombing down forest roads, not much else you could get that experience from other than a Jeep.

I love mine, Muffin, and she's exactly the wrong Jeep for anything resembling highway use, JP Magazine once called the 2.5l auto, "the most limp-wristed Jeep made." I suffered through daily driving, and 6 years of college making the 3 hour trip home in it. There's a lot of things I'd like to change, about her, but I'll never get rid of Muffin, she's more than just family, she's part of me.

In 2010 I bought a 2000 TJ with lift, winch, and big tires. It was absolutely the worst thing in the world on the road (and I have over 50,000 miles in HMMWVs).

But it was also the most fun. Just a blast to join around in and I totally see the appeal of owning them. In your 20's and without rugrats you absolutely should buy one.

In reply to bigdaddylee82:

I started reading your build thread over my lunch break today and was enjoying it immensely. Good stuff.

Regarding lifts: I know basically nothing of lifted vehicles, never driven one and maybe ridden in one a couple times. What is it like to drive a lifted truck? What's normal behavior and what should be cause for concern? I know body lifts are generally no good, but what else is there to look for? Brands to avoid?

Not that I necessarily want to buy a lifted Jeep, but just in case I were to happen upon a nice one.

Well, if you plan to finance, auto loans typically have a 10/100 limit. That leaves you with the last 2 years of the TJ. Those will be at the top of your price range.

+1 on a Cherokee being better for half the price.

I enjoyed the fact that I could park it anywhere, I only washed it when I could no longer see out the windows and anything that broke could easily be fixed. Jeepforum was almost as helpful as GRM, aside from the occasional "Use the Search Bar". I never locked the doors, because I figured that a thief would just slice the top anyway.

They are miserable on the highway. I remember thinking about driving mine up to Springfield MA, but then decided to just stay home rather than endure the ride.

I bought a slightly used 86 CJ7 back in the day. It had only 6K miles, six cylinder five speed and switch hubs. Red with a tan soft top. The previous owner was very unhappy with it. I ran 33's with a three inch body lift and had a blast. Hit the beaches on Long Island and even did a little mudd'n. It wasn't until I took a job with a longer commute did I realize the jeep sucked on the hi-way. Sold it and bought a Fiero.

Anyway, everybody needs to own a CJ,YJ or TJ at least once in their life.

Woody wrote: I enjoyed the fact that I could park it anywhere, I only washed it when I could no longer see out the windows and anything that broke could easily be fixed. Jeepforum was almost as helpful as GRM, aside from the occasional "Use the Search Bar". I never locked the doors, because I figured that a thief would just slice the top anyway. They are miserable on the highway. I remember thinking about driving mine up to Springfield MA, but then decided to just stay home rather than endure the ride.

This...except in a jk the highway is tolerable...just. They are silly fun.

Some friends and I shared a CJ for a while. It was tired had no doors, bikini top and a start button with no key. It was the worst car I've ever driven but probably the best toy. If I lived near the beach I would have another just like it.

Furious_E wrote: Regarding lifts: I know basically nothing of lifted vehicles, never driven one and maybe ridden in one a couple times. What is it like to drive a lifted truck? What's normal behavior and what should be cause for concern? I know body lifts are generally no good, but what else is there to look for? Brands to avoid? Not that I necessarily want to buy a lifted Jeep, but just in case I were to happen upon a nice one.

I've only had suspension lifts. I'd recommend staying away from Superlift, they don't articulate at all and make the ride more punishing because they just dont flex.
BDS (Big Dick Suspension) make very good lifts and I know the springs used to have a lifetime warranty, I suspect they still do.
The bestest lifts out there are OME (Old Man Emu). They are expensive, but somehow provide lift, great articulation, and improve the ride quality.

Gettin' my brother's 98 5-speed XJ today. Needs an engine, clutch while yur in there and a little welding/ rust repair. Was just gonna baby sit it but E36 M3 like this could easily turn into a project.

Edit: This applies to TJs and older, JKs are a foreign animal to me.

Lift Kits are a can of worms, brand loyalty plays a big role, and Jeep folks are generally pretty opinionated. So one of us telling you what sucks and what doesn't, we aren't likely to agree with another.

That said, I wouldn't put a Rough Country anything on my Jeep. I've seen their leafs turn S shaped, and their TJ springs are so soft the Jeep flops around more than it actually articulates, they can make highway driving into a scary amusement park ride. I agree with Dr. Boost about OME being good, less so about BDS, unless they've stepped up their game the last few years. I personally like Rubicon Express, I put a 3.5" Super Ride kit on SWMBO's XJ. I have/had friends with all kinds of off the shelf suspension kits on their Jeeps, some better than others, do your research and form an opinion.

There are some things to pay attention to though. For coil spring Jeeps, a 3" lift is at the bleeding edge of okay for the stock control arms. With 3" springs the control arm angle is pretty steep, and you get into caster angle issues. You'll find that a lot of the flex in the suspension is actually the stamped steel control arms twisting, as they bind, not so much bushings actually giving. If the lift kit still has the stock control arms and it's over 3" avoid, or plan to fix it.

Once you get 4" or more it should really be a "long arm" kit, where the control arms are replaced with longer arms, and their frame attachment point is moved further from the axle to retain proper geometry.

If it's a street driven Jeep, 4" lift is about as much as I'd be comfortable with. Generally a 4" lift will fit 35" tires. You're getting into the expensive and difficult to balance tire sizes. If you really need larger tires than that, I'd start looking at ways to remove sheet metal before raising my center of gravity any more with a suspension lift.

Coil spring spacers suck, I have them on Mufffin, dumb idea some college kid (me) had as a cheap way to fit larger tires. I could understand using a small or adjustable spacer to level out ride height with a full suspension kit, but as a sole means of increasing the height of the vehicle, it's a terrible idea.

Pay attention to the supporting modifications. If you lift a coil sprung Jeep more than a couple inches, you're going to have to do something about the track bar. It's either going to need it's frame mounting point moved, or you're going to need a longer/adjustable track bar. The correct answer is adjustable track bar.

On leaf spring Jeeps, a lot of folks just move the spring from the bottom of the axle to the top, i.e. "spring over," it's a cheap easy way of getting a few inches of lift, however thick the axle tube and perch is, is how much lift you gain. It's a little harder on the OE springs, and can cause them premature wear as their bending/twisting with the axle below now, instead of on top as they were designed. There are aftermarket springs, and kits intended for spring over applications though.

Lift blocks plus spring over is a terrible idea, avoid.

I'd prefer to see longer springs and retain the factory spring under placement of the leaf springs.

Lift shackles aren't always necessary, if all of the Jeep's lift are from giant shackles on the springs, avoid or plan to remedy. You can gain a bit more articulation, and maintain proper geometry with some of the boomerang shackles, but stuff like those Teraflex Revolver shackles are a terrible idea. I've seen Revolvers bind, and compress off center half a dozen times, then you're steering with your rear axle too.

Regardless of what kind of Jeep, pay attention to the supporting mods. If it has a lift, why? What size tires? Are those tires okay to use with the axles on the Jeep? If it has larger tires has the gear ratio been adjusted, and to what? If it's a YJ/TJ and has more than 3" of lift does it have a slip yoke eliminator (SYE) on the transfercase and CV rear drive shaft? Have the brake hoses been extended properly if needed? Does it still have some form of anti sway bar, specifically on TJs? What shocks are on the Jeep, are they the proper length to accommodate the lift?

A cheap TJ lift, with short arms and crap geometry can easily make the Jeep into a tipod during a sharp turn on pavement or anywhere with good traction, having a locker in the rear exasperates the problem. I've experienced it a few times in my own Jeep, and have seen videos of folks actually flopping their Jeeps on the side in parking lots. Just another reason to have a quality lift with proper geometry.

As far as driving a lifted Jeep, if it's a quality kit, it should be livable. The center of gravity is higher, so it's no Miata hugging the corners, but it wasn't before the lift either. With the lift and larger tires comes more road noise, less fuel economy, more wear on parts, a hatred of low clearance parking decks, and you open yourself up to Napoleon Complex jokes.

That kind of turned into a novel.

Having owned at least one of all of your choices, I'd rate them in this order. Note that I'm referring generally to stock-ish vehicles. Obviously once you go crazy on lift kits, wheels, etc etc.....any of these choices can become completely different in their character, so YMMV.

1. 4Runner (let's assume something around 2005) - reliable, decent road manners (depending on the model - Sport Edition has better street suspension), good to great brakes (depending on model), and pretty much bulletproof either in the V6 or V8. Also just as capable off-road as any jeep on 95% of terrain (more extreme rock-crawling excepted). Downsides: watch out for rust, though not as much of an issue with the newer generations. And cost - they hold their value so expect to pay more.

Most of those points hold true for other Toyota trucks (Taco, Land Cruiser, etc). Always look out for rust with older Toyota trucks.

1. XJ - longer wheelbase than standard wranglers, so a bit more comfortable on the road. Still has the solid axles front and rear, but are reasonable road drivers with excellent off-road chops. Rear seats fold flat and the cargo area is flat and pretty big. Most wrangler parts crossover, huge aftermarket, and plenty of them in pick-and-pull yards. HO 4.0 (and even the earlier 4.0) are good engines. Downsides in stock form: brakes range from "scary" to "well below average" depending on year. Need to make sure ALL suspension bushings are in good shape or you will learn about "death wobble." Handling is mediocre at best. Nice rust-free ones are getting harder to find, and many of the nince ones these days are more heavily modded. Certain models have pretty lousy front seats (earlier ones mostly), and at this point all XJs are 20+ years old, so you have any of the same problems you have with any old cars. Forum and aftermarket support, and local jeep clubs, will still accept you and help you even if it's not a "Real Jeep" according to many of them, lol. Mine was mildly lifted with OME (considerd to be one of the more comfortable) suspension and all new suspension bushings, etc. I still found myself wishing I was driving something else 90% of the time I was driving it. YMMV.

2. Wrangler. I've owned one and driven many (ranging from very old ones to 2014 models). There is no question they are fun off-road, fun at the beach, and fun tooling around on a really nice day. And that pretty much covers it. They are not a comfortable ride in general. Even the 2014 Sport I had for a few days I found myself hating driving it anywhere, and it's supposed to be the "every-person" model I guess. Interior quality ranges from pathetic on the old ones to "ok" on the brand new ones. And don't kid yourself, they are not "awesome winter vehicles" by any means. Short wheelbase and fairly light rear end makes them not much fun to drive in anything but really, really deep snow (assuming you have good tires). Of all the cars I've owned in my life, the Jeeps (wrangler and XJ) would be my absolute last choices to drive with 6" of snow on the streets (assuming tires on all of them being equal). Soft tops are loud and marginally weatherproof. Wranglers are best with the tops off! All in all, they are a great vehicle for goofing around, playing at the lake house or on a trail or the beach. They are pretty much a lousy vehicle for general daily driving, road trips, or any kind of logistical task (they have very little cargo space and are not good tow vehicles in general).

My opinion bottom line: Jeeps (XJs or Wranglers) are fun at times, and there is no limit to the ways you can modify them depending on budget and imagination. Easy to work on, plentiful to buy or find at the pick-and-pull, and awesome community suport. They are fun to have in "fun" places (beach, forest, etc). The "charm" gets old very, very quickly if you are daily-driving it (or really, driving them on the paved roads at all). They aren't "fun" vehicles when out of their off-road element. If you are someone that "enjoys driving" whether commuting or on a highway trip, I would look to something else. It's hard to enjoy driving a Jeep when its wheels are on pavement, IMO.

Possible compromise: Grand Cherokee. They have their own issues over the generations, but generally have the on-road accumen of a 4Runner or other SUV, pretty good ride and handling, and good off-road chops and many of the other benefits of Jeeps (eg. parts, support, clubs). Plus they're dirt cheap to buy. Just shop carefully.

Did a fair amount of off-roading for a while with an early ford bronco and jeep TJ. The EB was a beast. More roomy, comfortable and stable on the road. Although plenty primitive. Lockers front and rear and lots of grunt. Considered it a jeep recovery vehicle on the trail. The TJ was a lot of fun. The narrower TJ is better for off-roading in some ways. A lot of trails are narrow. Makes it a bit more maneuverable. If you're serious about the off-roading part or want to do a bit of rock crawling, rethink the manual transmission. They are a PITA in the tough stuff.

I keep seeing people mention short wheelbases. What about the Unlimited? Some mentioned upgrades to driveline parts for lifts/lockers. How about Rubicons?

While somewhat rare If I were looking for a Jeep it would be a TJ Unlimited (LJ) Rubicon with slightly oversizes tires and body mods for clearance. I've been out of the Jeep world for a while, so am I off base with this idea?

Rubis are the best value in upgrades - 4.11 dana 44 axles, lockers. Unlimiteds just look awkward to me - never seen one running a soft top that wasn't extra floppy.

I think the OP's price range could land a driver quality early bronco or toyota FJ40. Both increasing in value classics.

In reply to bigdaddylee82:

That's great info, exactly what I'm looking for!

I think I'm gonna take a ride on the bike down to a used car lot in York this afternoon, as soon as the roads dry out a bit more. They have a 5 speed extended cab Taco with the 3.4 in stock, along with 2 TJs, one lifted with a soft top and the other stock height with a hard top. Hopefully I can drive all three back to back to back and sort out what I really want!

I had a lot of fun with CJ's before I moved on to "small cars". I once drove a CJ5 from Toledo to just west of Albany. long slow drive. I never had a problem with the short wheelbase. Maybe because I didn't the difference.

A TJ is a great daily driver. I loved my 03 until I modded it beyond practicality then didn't have time to wheel it at all. (40s and D60/70 with 110" stretched wheelbase)

If I get another I'd leave it just like originally I lifted it 3in plus 33x10.50 tires.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f22/flatlander757s-03-tj-build-update-thread-457119/&ved=0CCoQFjAAahUKEwjNlbClj-XGAhXEdj4KHRP9B00&usg=AFQjCNFkdq10viHxFv7EvusbQ4iL64N69Q

On TJs you want the 02+ for better soft top material if buying soft top, and avoid 04+ for potential oil pump drive gear wiping out the cam unless you can check it out beforehand.

Big difference between 02-03 is the many interior changes and PCM changes. If you were buying auto that's also when the change from 3spd 32RH to 4spd(with awful ratios) 42RLE occurred FWIW.

Whatever you do, get one with a D44 rear axle. The rear will have a 3/8 square fill plug just like the D30 front, if the rear has a rubber fill plug its the crappy D35 which is known for spectacular failure when offroaded, plus known for eating spider gears with normal use.

The Unlimited are great BUT they have waaay more rear overhang than TJs so plan on dragging your ass on trails. I like TJs with stretched wheelbase.

I started with this:

Shortly after:

Ended up here:

Yes those are leaf springs on the back.

Well I drove the lifted Jeep and that Tacoma back to back.

The jeep went first. I don't think a lift is something I want to deal with in a semi daily driver. I believe this example had a Rough Country kit, no slip yoke eliminator, and a stock track bar. It drove like E36 M3, quite frankly, and I think I even induced a moderate death wobble at one point. Maybe some day down the road, with parts I choose and install, but not now. I think the hard top is also a necessity for me.

I liked the Tacoma a lot in general and it definitely drove much better than even a stock Jeep, although definitely still very truck-like (well duh, it is a truck.) The one big downside was that the ergos didnt seem to suit me very well. The relationship between the seat, peddles, steering wheel, and shifter didnt seem right and the peddles were spaced too closely. This particular example was a bit too crusty underneath for my liking anyways.

Conclusion: I think I could live with a Jeep over something like a Taco just fine, but I wouldn't turn down the right deal on either. Now back to Craigslist...