What's the appeal of diesel?

All of these I get, but I'm starting to believe the economy thing is a false economy (in cars, not trucks). A car that gets 42mpg of diesel at $3.89 per gallon costs about the same to operate as a car that gets about 35mpg of gas at $3.39 per gallon. That's the part I'm having trouble with. If diesel were priced more reasonably I think things would be very different.

It's only recently that there are enough 35mpg cars that this is even a realistic comparison.

We're okay with paying a premium for economy we won't actually benefit from in the name of reinforcing the desire for such cars

Thank the gods that someone understands this. Noone talks about it in cars but plenty of people will lecture on the merits of tipping a waiter, especially if you plan to buy there again... but of course these have nothing in common.

Going from a real-world 50 mpg down to 25 mpg was tough

Ive been through this with my Insight vs all the rest. It really resets your expectations and makes it hard to settle for half-ass economy (which, up til very recently, 95%+ of all cars were half-ass efforts on the economy front).

I think any cost comparison between gas and diesel vehicles needs to put a spotlight on the role of government policy in shaping those costs. Ultimately, it's the kingmaker in this game. Differing fuel taxes and ways of regulating emissions account for MORE than the current space between the two.

I have a 41 horse diesel tractor that burns a little less than a gallon an hour under load. I also have an 18 horse one that I have to put 5 gallons in every 20 hours.

sounds and smells=]

I have next to no experience with modern diesels. I've driven rabbits for 15 years though and I love them for their economy and ease of repair. People complain about the whole smoky rattly whatever but it is a twenty five to thirty year old car; most are the same. I also like the fact that with a small outlay I can be driving a GTI chassis with 50mpg.

As for UPS trucks that we were talking about earlier going back to gasoline. The UPS and FedEx trucks here locally have gone to CNG which will bring the cost down although it does minimize distance available but it seems that most of the "local" semis and delivery trucks will probably go this way. Less and cleaner engine emissions are also a plus for CNG.

For stop and go delivery trucks, i think 'non fuel' ways of increasing efficiency, like a hydraulic accumulator system with a pump on the driveshaft, are going to be the next big thing. For all i love battery-electric propulsion and old/simple diesels, i think with the reliability of current gas engines, the cheapest thing in the long term for those kinds of trucks is going to be buying the cheapest gas motor option and adding systems to improve their major weaknesses.

IMHO 40+mpg gasser cars have not been available long enough to truly be accessible to most people who don't like to eat the depreciation of a new vehicle. Hybrids first gen are just starting to get to where they can compete with diesels and almost everyone in drive tests say that on highway type trips diesel always trumps the hybrid.

If you do like me and buy a mk4 Jetta TDI with manual trans and rollup windows you have a fairly bulletproof car that is free of the electronic gremlins some other models have had from VAG

That and the car cost me 6k with 124k miles on it in 08 and its still worth 5-6k in 2012 with 175k on it

In addition if you mod them it doesn't mean negative fuel numbers. Starting tuning a gas engine and generally you have to add more fuel and air to get it which reduces efficiency. Power on a diesel is based almost purely on fuel and if you keep your foot out of it you can keep the same efficiency.

I'm still really tempted to chip/put injectors on my TDI as each one costs less than 300 bucks and adds about 25hp and 40lb/ft of torque but I will wait until it needs a clutch

torque, sound, and smell. any other reason, with modern turbocharged direct injection gas engines vs modern ultra complex emissions era electronically controller diesels, is as much as hype as reality. mpg typically ends up a wash when combined with higher maintenance and higher per gallon fuel costs.
Now, with a truck application there gets to the point where a diesel engine pulls things a truck engine can't... more a current market trend than anything else, they used to make huge gas engines for semi trucks. but diesels tend to have a higher energy output per gallon, though modern gas engines are catching up.

Jaynen wrote: I'm still really tempted to chip/put injectors on my TDI as each one costs less than 300 bucks and adds about 25hp and 40lb/ft of torque but I will wait until it needs a clutch

I'm standing on that ledge right now... My car is exhibiting the signs of the throw-out bearing rattle, so I'll probably be doing a G60 upgrade this year... and I think after 300K miles, the turbo seals are starting to go... and it's probably safe to say the injector nozzles are worn... and I'd really like to get rid of the EGR valve... and I live maybe an hour from Rocketchip HQ...

Our chariot to the $2012 Challenge last year was a 220,000 mile 1996 VW Passat TDI Wagon with the 5 speed. We got over 40 mpg out of it on 3 of the 4 tanks of gas we put in it on its journey from MA to the event and back. The only tank we didn't was around 38 mpg, and that's because an intake tube came loose and it went into limp mode. And mind you, that's with 3 dudes and all our crap, and damn near nonstop trips there and back. The car just didn't care. The owner drove another 1000 plus miles the week we got back for his job as a courier. It was not bad to drive, and comfortable on long distances.

Yeah, I'm sold on modern diesels.

Dashpot wrote: Soot belching, coal burning, stinking, rattling harbingers of hell. They all should have been legislated off the road or ordered to clean up 40 years ago. Other than that - to each his own...

I'm sorry... You must have been in a coma since 1978

NOHOME wrote: There is a perception that Diesel is cheaper to operate and that if you run a lot of miles, this tips even further in your favour. I have yet to see this pan out. The complexity of modern diesel and the cost of parts compared to gasoline engines pretty much kills the deal. The fact that diesel is more expensive (used to be cheaper go figure)

Keep in mind that this is GRM. We're probably not talking about a brand-new $60k truck. The percentage of the new, complex diesels on the road compared to the old-school mechanical diesels is pretty small. Comparing a brand-new, unproven diesel to a tried-and-true gas engine is pointless. Brand-new gas engines could be just as junky (or just as reliable) as the old ones. We should be comparing proven diesels with proven gas engines.

Plus, many of the modern diesels have proven to be just as reliable (if not MORE reliable) than the old ones - AND returning impressive fuel consumption numbers, vastly increased oil change intervals (new Duramax diesels only require 10k intervals which is on-par with most gas engines) and marked improvements in applied technology.

In Nevada, it's a matter of emissions testing. When I moved here with my Volvo Diesel, I found out that the emissions test was $50/year, as opposed to $15. Combined with the cost of Diesel, Driving a 35mpg Scion proved much cheaper than a 35mpg Volvo 245Diesel.

I've liked modern diesels for a while now.

We have a Sprinter at work. It's the 140" wheelbase, high roof model. Even with a bum injector, it got 22 mpg on the highway at 80 mph. If a Rolls has the aerodynamics of a stately home, a Sprinter has those of a factory.

For similar fuel economy to our old 1996 Nissan pickup, we have significantly more capacity.

We also test drove a bunch of work vans, mostly domestic full size with V8s. Most felt anemic compared to the 5 cyl. turbo diesel.

Would I buy a modern diesel? Hell yes. If I could find a Grand Cherokee with one for my wife at a price we could afford, it would be a perfect replacement to her aging Liberty.

For me, I like the idea of a boosted Sky-D motor in an RX-8 whose magic spinning triangles are no longer magic or spinning.

curtis73 wrote:

Dashpot wrote: Soot belching, coal burning, stinking, rattling harbingers of hell. They all should have been legislated off the road or ordered to clean up 40 years ago. Other than that - to each his own...

I'm sorry... You must have been in a coma since 1978

I haven't been in a coma, but I've sure been stuck behind enough soot belching garbage scows to constantly wonder how they're still allowed on the road.

Sure, a new BMW, Merc, etc runs cleaner with it's urea injection & particulate filter - but the other 99.999%of the diesels on the road are crap.

because it smells better

Dashpot wrote:

curtis73 wrote:

Dashpot wrote: Soot belching, coal burning, stinking, rattling harbingers of hell. They all should have been legislated off the road or ordered to clean up 40 years ago. Other than that - to each his own...

I'm sorry... You must have been in a coma since 1978

I haven't been in a coma, but I've sure been stuck behind enough soot belching garbage scows to constantly wonder how they're still allowed on the road. Sure, a new BMW, Merc, etc runs cleaner with it's urea injection & particulate filter - but the other 99.999%of the diesels on the road are crap.

They all have to meet the same emissions standards.

bravenrace wrote:

Dashpot wrote:

curtis73 wrote:

Dashpot wrote: Soot belching, coal burning, stinking, rattling harbingers of hell. They all should have been legislated off the road or ordered to clean up 40 years ago. Other than that - to each his own...

I'm sorry... You must have been in a coma since 1978

I haven't been in a coma, but I've sure been stuck behind enough soot belching garbage scows to constantly wonder how they're still allowed on the road. Sure, a new BMW, Merc, etc runs cleaner with it's urea injection & particulate filter - but the other 99.999% of the diesels on the road are crap.

They all have to meet the same emissions standards.

I'm overstating for a reason because the problem is so obvious. I don't know what commercial truck emissions standards are for new vs.old fleet - but the roads are full of old stinkers. They obviously don't have to meet the same standards as new ones.

there are none for old fleet. diesel smells good. who cares if they are "stinkers," I dont' know where you drive but I get behind more gasoline cars not running cats running so rich they make my eyes water than I do trucks showing any black smoke.

Nathan JansenvanDoorn wrote: I LOVE my TDI. I bought it roughly two years and almost exactly 60k miles ago. 80 miles a day commute, average 50mpg since I purchased it. Many 700+ mile tanks. The kicker? Market value is the same now as it was 2 years ago. I don't agree with the market, but the market believes that TDI value is basically unaffected by mileage. If I was driving the 2.0 gasser, it would be nearly worthless by now and would cost over $100 more per month in fuel. What hasn't been mentioned is that a 40+ mpg TDI is typically a much nicer long distance hwy hauler than the 35-40mpg cars that have been touted in this thread as alternatives. Now that I've eliminated the commute, the case is certainly not as strong - I get 5-6 weeks out of a tank. An RX8 (hardly the epitome of efficiency) would cost me maybe only $50-75 more per month in fuel with a much more engaging drive.

If my Insight ever reaches a point it's no longer reasonable to keep it on the road, it will most likely be replaced by a TDI Golf.

That said, it only has 140k on it, it's just getting broken in.

Dashpot wrote:

curtis73 wrote:

Dashpot wrote: Soot belching, coal burning, stinking, rattling harbingers of hell. They all should have been legislated off the road or ordered to clean up 40 years ago. Other than that - to each his own...

I'm sorry... You must have been in a coma since 1978

I haven't been in a coma, but I've sure been stuck behind enough soot belching garbage scows to constantly wonder how they're still allowed on the road. Sure, a new BMW, Merc, etc runs cleaner with it's urea injection & particulate filter - but the other 99.999%of the diesels on the road are crap.

You might be surprised if you actually knew what the emissions of a early to mid 90s diesel is. Much better than you lead on.

I have always had a diesel. This may sound funny, but dammit, they make me feel more manly. Current powerstroke has 380k miles. Kinda like an old friend that talks to me in smoky turbo diesel, klickity klack

Around here, the big draws are not so much cheaper to operate as it is a long time between fillups. It's also something of a status symbol; dropping the kids off at school or going to the grocery store in a big diesel dually seems to be the cool thing. I'm not making that up, you'd be surprised how many women drive the things and never tow anything. They'd be better off in a stretch cab gas version but jump right on the big diesel dually instead.

The flip side is the DPF doesn't like all that stop n' go stuff, it needs a long highway trip to burn the soot off... it's an eye opener when people discover a clogged DPF is not warranty and can be $3500 to replace.

curtis73 wrote:

Dashpot wrote: Soot belching, coal burning, stinking, rattling harbingers of hell.

I'm sorry... You must have been in a coma since 1978

Amen. I like diesels because I can get 43 mpg while towing my boat across the state.

I'm so excited about the new Mazda 6 diesel that I started a website for it.

Also, the point that the premium for the diesel engine wont be made up by fuel savings is a horrible argument. Look at the value of diesel Jettas/Trucks/anything out there vs their gas counterparts. If anything you may save even more money because they hold their value so well.

Curmudgeon wrote: The flip side is the DPF doesn't like all that stop n' go stuff, it needs a long highway trip to burn the soot off... it's an eye opener when people discover a clogged DPF is not warranty and can be $3500 to replace.

I remember when those bastard add-ons happened to appear. Computer controls and programming were still in diapers for technology ready for college. I remember having to chase my ass off for all the backed up soot into the EGR and intake system. I always loved them, Chrysler was having so many problems, the labor op was actual time. As a flat rater, that is a blank check, 8-12hrs for me.

This is also why UPS and similar are going back to gas/CNG/LPG. Stop and go kills DPF's and idling does and doesn't allow regen to happen or happen efficiently, but you have to keep them running all the time to have the regen happen. Something UPS won't allow to happen.