Speaking of diesel... a diesel funny!
Speaking of diesel... a diesel funny!
Life with a modern diesel.
Smell? The exhaust from my 2010 Cummins is slightly sweet. That's about it.
Smoke? Nope. Again, a modern DPF setup. I've only had it complain once about the canister filling up, and it took me 4000 miles of heavy towing without a break to get to that point. 30 minutes down the highway without a trailer and it sorted itself out. Driving around town hasn't caused a problem, although I don't have to deal with serious traffic around here. If you pay attention and do what the truck asks for, you're not going to clog that filter. Then again, a 7700 lb truck is a poor replacement for a Civic in traffic.
"Diesel fluid"? Not on the Cummins, so I can't comment on what it's like living with that. It's not hard finding diesel around here, I'd say at least 90% of stations have it. I know it's not always as easy, and going through a commercial pump at a highway truck stop can be a pain in the patootie.
1000 rpm powerband? Well, the redline IS at 3300 but I have gearing to match. Unloaded, my powerband is about 2300 rpm. Loaded, it's more like 1500 rpm. And that's a truck engine.
I test-drove a TDI VW back when I bought my Golf in 2000. I dismissed it because of the short powerband because I was used to sports cars that wound out past 7000. Mistake - now I'd probably get the TDI. I'd certainly take a good look at a diesel option on any future car purchase.
SilverFleet wrote: Our chariot to the $2012 Challenge last year was a 220,000 mile 1996 VW Passat TDI Wagon with the 5 speed. We got over 40 mpg out of it on 3 of the 4 tanks of gas we put in it on its journey from MA to the event and back. The only tank we didn't was around 38 mpg, and that's because an intake tube came loose and it went into limp mode. And mind you, that's with 3 dudes and all our crap, and damn near nonstop trips there and back. The car just didn't care. The owner drove another 1000 plus miles the week we got back for his job as a courier. It was not bad to drive, and comfortable on long distances. Yeah, I'm sold on modern diesels.
As a counterpoint.... i got the same MPG out of Swank Force One. Old E36 M3ty gas motor.
Though that said... Swank Force One probably stinks worse than a diesel Passat and i'm sure it blows more smoke.
DrBoost wrote: My 1992 300D gets 32-34 on the highway, 30 on average. Compare that with a 1992 Taurus or Crown Vic. Not only do they get less economy, they usually are dead long before 303,000 miles. For me, specifically it was the ability to run veggie oil. The lack of fun is more than made up for when I only buy 3-4 tanks of fuel a year, not a month. That being said, diesel fuel is more of a racket that gasoline. At least gas fluctuates up AND down. By me, diesel has been right around $4 a gallon for at least a year. Why is a product that's refines LESS than gas 33% more expensive? I don't buy the whole 'demand' thing. Gas is in demand as well last I checked.
Might want to rephrase this to only the crown vic......my '91 SHO rewarded my driving style 31mpg from Oklahoma back to Indianapolis.......going no slower than 85mph. Granted, who knows how old the drivetrain is, but with maintence, there are a few guys over 500k with the yamahammer.
Ranger, I find that greatly amusing because its true....for the most part. 
DrBoost wrote:Dashpot wrote:You might be surprised if you actually knew what the emissions of a early to mid 90s diesel is. Much better than you lead on.curtis73 wrote:I haven't been in a coma, but I've sure been stuck behind enough soot belching garbage scows to constantly wonder how they're still allowed on the road. Sure, a new BMW, Merc, etc runs cleaner with it's urea injection & particulate filter - but the other 99.999%of the diesels on the road are crap.Dashpot wrote: Soot belching, coal burning, stinking, rattling harbingers of hell. They all should have been legislated off the road or ordered to clean up 40 years ago. Other than that - to each his own...I'm sorry... You must have been in a coma since 1978
Amen. Just because you can see diesel exhaust from an older diesel doesn't mean its bad, and just because you can't see gasoline exhaust doesn't make it good.
In fact the new Diesel Power magazine cites a University of CA study that shows that commercial fast-food hamburger frying contributes more airborne particulate emissions than all of the diesels in CA. Nobody walks by a Burger King and complains about how we have to stop cooking meat.
Dashpot - I'm simply saying that if your only data is "belching" and "smelly" then this is simply your jaded opinion. The facts do not support your opinion in this case.
In reply to Swank Force One:
I forgot to mention that his intake was completely clogged with sooty, sludgy grossness for the entire trip. We figured that out when we got back. And we STILL got over 40mpg most of the time!
He usually gets over 50 out of it with normal driving, and without two other dudes and loads of crap. His dad bought it new and has kept a logbook of everything, including every single tank of diesel and the mileage since day one. I think that 38mpg was the worst it ever got in it's entire life.
That said, I now want a MX6 turbo as a daily driver, if you really get that kind of mileage out of it.
SilverFleet wrote: In reply to Swank Force One: I forgot to mention that his intake was completely clogged with sooty, sludgy grossness for the entire trip. We figured that out when we got back. And we STILL got over 40mpg most of the time!
Got 41mpg on the trip from Indy, to picking up the guys from Evansville, to Gainesville.
Did slightly worse on the way back (39mpg) mostly because i was hoofing it a bit faster and i've yet to find a way to keep it out of open loop at 80mph unless it's perfectly flat. Unfortunately, open loop means 9.8:1 AFRs, not great for cruising.
Also bear in mind this is largely un-tuned, and i full expect to see 43-45mpg out of this thing on the highway come spring, ESPECIALLY if i get around to the 5th gear swap, which should also help the open loop issue.
But... DON'T expect to get that mileage out of a stock one. Low 30s on the highway is about the best case scenario for a stock one. The secret is big turbo.
And a gas engine that behaves more like a diesel......
curtis73 wrote: Dashpot - I'm simply saying that if your only data is "belching" and "smelly" then this is simply your jaded opinion. The facts do not support your opinion in this case.
My jaded opinion comes from everyday driving on 2 lane roads that are also occupied by freight, logging, dump & commercial trucks. They are not new. They are not modern. They are old and E36 M3ty and noisy and slow. They spew trails of visible soot and stink like unburned hydrocarbons.
If you don't have such vehicles in your neck of the woods - you're lucky. I get stuck behind those facts way too often.
Dashpot wrote:curtis73 wrote: Dashpot - I'm simply saying that if your only data is "belching" and "smelly" then this is simply your jaded opinion. The facts do not support your opinion in this case.My jaded opinion comes from everyday driving on 2 lane roads that are also occupied by freight, logging, dump & commercial trucks. They are not new. They are not modern. They are old and E36 M3ty and noisy and slow. They spew trails of visible soot and stink like unburned hydrocarbons. If you don't have such vehicles in your neck of the woods - you're lucky. I get stuck behind those facts way too often.
Oh, I'm not disagreeing with that... They do belch clouds of soot... I'm simply saying that its your subjective opinion that black clouds of soot are terrible. The data doesn't support it. New diesels cannot emit any more than their gas counterparts. Old diesels emit less of every emission than gas except NOx and particulates. They're pretty clean. Much cleaner than most people think, and its because of those subjective descriptions like "spew" and "stink". Its funny that you mention that it smells like unburnt hydrocarbons. In a diesel, there are almost no HC emissions at all because of how they are fueled. Unburned HC from a diesel appears as a whitish-grey smoke, not black.
That's like saying that Jenna Jameson was a great actress just because she's hot and likes it in the butt. You might LIKE her because of those qualities, but it doesn't change the fact that her acting sucks.
Dashpot wrote:curtis73 wrote: Dashpot - I'm simply saying that if your only data is "belching" and "smelly" then this is simply your jaded opinion. The facts do not support your opinion in this case.My jaded opinion comes from everyday driving on 2 lane roads that are also occupied by freight, logging, dump & commercial trucks. They are not new. They are not modern. They are old and E36 M3ty and noisy and slow. They spew trails of visible soot and stink like unburned hydrocarbons. If you don't have such vehicles in your neck of the woods - you're lucky. I get stuck behind those facts way too often.
Must be a littleton thing, because I don't get them in Carlisle. We would smell it too, since we tend to avert our noses when we walk around.
I love my diesel truck, even if it's a 6.0 Ford (she's been perfect). I like the sound, I like the smells and I love the torque.
yamaha wrote: And a gas engine that behaves more like a diesel......
Yeah yeah yeah... So the motor in Swank Force One is actually based on a 70-80s diesel motor, so what? It runs on gas, it counts!
DaveEstey wrote: Must be a littleton thing, because I don't get them in Carlisle. We would smell it too, since we tend to avert our noses when we walk around. I love my diesel truck, even if it's a 6.0 Ford (she's been perfect). I like the sound, I like the smells and I love the torque.
Now that you mention it, it's not as bad in Mass. Most often it's heading up into the Monadnock region on 119 & 123 in the convertible, something we do a lot. Long hills behind logging & dump trucks ruin an otherwise really nice drive.
In reply to curtis73:
Burned definitely isn't coming from the turned up diesels in my area......the "Rolling Coal" and wanting their truck to obscure a battleship is pretty retarded. Thankfully, that crowd is slowly reverting to jail cells in my area.....something about DUI's.....
yamaha wrote: In reply to curtis73: Burned definitely isn't coming from the turned up diesels in my area......the "Rolling Coal" and wanting their truck to obscure a battleship is pretty retarded. Thankfully, that crowd is slowly reverting to jail cells in my area.....something about DUI's.....
I wish diesel smoke was easily ignitable.
Dashpot wrote:curtis73 wrote:I haven't been in a coma, but I've sure been stuck behind enough soot belching garbage scows to constantly wonder how they're still allowed on the road. Sure, a new BMW, Merc, etc runs cleaner with it's urea injection & particulate filter - but the other 99.999%of the diesels on the road are crap.Dashpot wrote: Soot belching, coal burning, stinking, rattling harbingers of hell. They all should have been legislated off the road or ordered to clean up 40 years ago. Other than that - to each his own...I'm sorry... You must have been in a coma since 1978
You've been following me around haven't you?
Dashpot wrote:DaveEstey wrote: Must be a littleton thing, because I don't get them in Carlisle. We would smell it too, since we tend to avert our noses when we walk around. I love my diesel truck, even if it's a 6.0 Ford (she's been perfect). I like the sound, I like the smells and I love the torque.Now that you mention it, it's not as bad in Mass. Most often it's heading up into the Monadnock region on 119 & 123 in the convertible, something we do a lot. Long hills behind logging & dump trucks ruin an otherwise really nice drive.
I've definitely experience that.
In reply to DaveEstey:
Hell... We experience that on a regular basis following around a gaggle of poorly ridden and ill-tuned Harley's.
curtis73 wrote: Oh, I'm not disagreeing with that... They do belch clouds of soot... I'm simply saying that its your subjective opinion that black clouds of soot are terrible. The data doesn't support it. New diesels cannot emit any more than their gas counterparts. Old diesels emit less of every emission than gas except NOx and particulates. They're pretty clean. Much cleaner than most people think, and its *because* of those subjective descriptions like "spew" and "stink". Its funny that you mention that it smells like unburnt hydrocarbons. In a diesel, there are almost no HC emissions at all because of how they are fueled. Unburned HC from a diesel appears as a whitish-grey smoke, not black.
Pretty Clean? See Below
Health Effects of Diesel Exhaust A fact sheet by Cal/EPA's Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment and the American Lung Association
What are the health effects of diesel exhaust? As we breathe, the toxic gases and small particles of diesel exhaust are drawn into the lungs. The microscopic particles in diesel exhaust are less than one-fifth the thickness of a human hair and are small enough to penetrate deep into the lungs, where they contribute to a range of health problems.
Diesel exhaust and many individual substances contained in it (including arsenic, benzene, formaldehyde and nickel) have the potential to contribute to mutations in cells that can lead to cancer. In fact, long-term exposure to diesel exhaust particles poses the highest cancer risk of any toxic air contaminant evaluated by OEHHA. ARB estimates that about 70 percent of the cancer risk that the average Californian faces from breathing toxic air pollutants stems from diesel exhaust particles.
In its comprehensive assessment of diesel exhaust, OEHHA analyzed more than 30 studies of people who worked around diesel equipment, including truck drivers, railroad workers and equipment operators. The studies showed these workers were more likely to develop lung cancer than workers who were not exposed to diesel emissions. These studies provide strong evidence that long-term occupational exposure to diesel exhaust increases the risk of lung cancer. Using information from OEHHA's assessment, ARB estimates that diesel-particle levels measured in California's air in 2000 could cause 540 "excess" cancers (beyond what would occur if there were no diesel particles in the air) in a population of 1 million people over a 70-year lifetime. Other researchers and scientific organizations, including the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, have calculated cancer risks from diesel exhaust that are similar to those developed by OEHHA and ARB.
Exposure to diesel exhaust can have immediate health effects. Diesel exhaust can irritate the eyes, nose, throat and lungs, and it can cause coughs, headaches, lightheadedness and nausea. In studies with human volunteers, diesel exhaust particles made people with allergies more susceptible to the materials to which they are allergic, such as dust and pollen. Exposure to diesel exhaust also causes inflammation in the lungs, which may aggravate chronic respiratory symptoms and increase the frequency or intensity of asthma attacks.
Diesel engines are a major source of fine-particle pollution. The elderly and people with emphysema, asthma, and chronic heart and lung disease are especially sensitive to fine-particle pollution. Numerous studies have linked elevated particle levels in the air to increased hospital admissions, emergency room visits, asthma attacks and premature deaths among those suffering from respiratory problems. Because children's lungs and respiratory systems are still developing, they are also more susceptible than healthy adults to fine particles. Exposure to fine particles is associated with increased frequency of childhood illnesses and can also reduce lung function in children.
Like all fuel-burning equipment, diesel engines produce nitrogen oxides, a common air pollutant in California. Nitrogen oxides can damage lung tissue, lower the body's resistance to respiratory infection and worsen chronic lung diseases, such as asthma. They also react with other pollutants in the atmosphere to form ozone, a major component of smog.
Not exactly sniffing daisies is it....
In reply to Dashpot:
That is a nice no news/slanted "study"... Estimates are just wild guesses. I'm not dismissing the claims, but their respective injury to others is grossly exaggerated because of their estimates. Only things I get out of reading that drivel is 100% of the ARB/EPA is full of crap and they don't want to ban diesels....
Greg Voth wrote: I want one but am not sure why. Just drove a TDI Beetle this weekend with 150,000 miles that is owned and well maintained by a 50 year old traveling nurse. It was interesting but had the requisit CEL, a rattly dash, crunchy shifter and crappy interior. She loves it and reports about 40mpg average. The 2012 4cyl auto Fusion Company car I have retails about $24k in SE (decently optioned trim). It is fun to drive, powerful enough and just returns mid 20's average. This past weekend from FL to DC and back with the wife, myself and some luggage it got 30.6 miles doing +/- 80 and 32.4 +/- 75 on the way back. Best I have recorded is over about 100 miles on 60mph road with some small cities and traffic lights where it returned 36mph. I believe it could touch 40mph on a 55-60mph highway.
A ten year old 3.5l Malibu Maxx can beat those numbers.
Dashpot wrote:curtis73 wrote: Oh, I'm not disagreeing with that... They do belch clouds of soot... I'm simply saying that its your subjective opinion that black clouds of soot are terrible. The data doesn't support it. New diesels cannot emit any more than their gas counterparts. Old diesels emit less of every emission than gas except NOx and particulates. They're pretty clean. Much cleaner than most people think, and its *because* of those subjective descriptions like "spew" and "stink". Its funny that you mention that it smells like unburnt hydrocarbons. In a diesel, there are almost no HC emissions at all because of how they are fueled. Unburned HC from a diesel appears as a whitish-grey smoke, not black.Pretty Clean? See Below Health Effects of Diesel Exhaust A fact sheet by Cal/EPA's Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment and the American Lung Association What are the health effects of diesel exhaust? As we breathe, the toxic gases and small particles of diesel exhaust are drawn into the lungs. The microscopic particles in diesel exhaust are less than one-fifth the thickness of a human hair and are small enough to penetrate deep into the lungs, where they contribute to a range of health problems.
The same can be said for gasoline, although gasoline puts out fewer particulates.
ARB estimates that about 70 percent of the cancer risk that the average Californian faces from breathing toxic air pollutants stems from diesel exhaust particles.
Sorry, but an environmental political organization (which knows nothing other than what the lobbyists tell them) is now making their own medical research data? Wow. 70% of cancer risk comes from diesel exhaust particles? I call BS.
In its comprehensive assessment of diesel exhaust, OEHHA analyzed more than 30 studies of people who worked around diesel equipment, including truck drivers, railroad workers and equipment operators. The studies showed these workers were more likely to develop lung cancer than workers who were not exposed to diesel emissions. These studies provide strong evidence that long-term occupational exposure to diesel exhaust increases the risk of lung cancer. Using information from OEHHA's assessment, ARB estimates that diesel-particle levels measured in California's air in 2000 could cause 540 "excess" cancers (beyond what would occur if there were no diesel particles in the air) in a population of 1 million people over a 70-year lifetime. Other researchers and scientific organizations, including the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, have calculated cancer risks from diesel exhaust that are similar to those developed by OEHHA and ARB.
Again, the same could be said about gasoline. This article doesn't compare gas and diesel, it compares diesel and lack of exposure to diesel.
Exposure to diesel exhaust can have immediate health effects. Diesel exhaust can irritate the eyes, nose, throat and lungs, and it can cause coughs, headaches, lightheadedness and nausea. In studies with human volunteers, diesel exhaust particles made people with allergies more susceptible to the materials to which they are allergic, such as dust and pollen. Exposure to diesel exhaust also causes inflammation in the lungs, which may aggravate chronic respiratory symptoms and increase the frequency or intensity of asthma attacks.
AGAIN, same can be said for gas.
Diesel engines are a major source of fine-particle pollution. The elderly and people with emphysema, asthma, and chronic heart and lung disease are especially sensitive to fine-particle pollution. Numerous studies have linked elevated particle levels in the air to increased hospital admissions, emergency room visits, asthma attacks and premature deaths among those suffering from respiratory problems. Because children's lungs and respiratory systems are still developing, they are also more susceptible than healthy adults to fine particles. Exposure to fine particles is associated with increased frequency of childhood illnesses and can also reduce lung function in children.
Any article that offers no source, no proof, no numbers (except to say that diesel soot causes 70% of the cancer in the state ) is not an article I can really believe.
Like all fuel-burning equipment, diesel engines produce nitrogen oxides, a common air pollutant in California.
Yup... including gasoline.
I never purported that diesel was perfect and you could drink it. I'm just saying that
Until you can find proof that you are dying because you have to follow a slow truck, please refrain from offering bogus BS opinion. This thread is asking a question. Your opinion has been noted, and data has been offered to refute it, yet you continue to say that its terrible because it smells bad.
I have done extensive research on this topic... not just looking at bogus internet articles from unqualified agencies, but actual, in-the-trenches, building engines, testing emissions, and doing actual hands-on data acquisition. Your assumptions are incorrect.
Done.
That said, it only has 140k on it, it's just getting broken in.
When i stopped driving my insight a few months ago (because of a string of new car relationships i got into ) it had 337k and i was still taking it to redline on 0-20 oil. So i would have to say just getting broken in is a fair statement.
corytate wrote: sounds and smells=]
So you've met Walter the farting dog?
Whats the appeal of Diesel?
Awesome movies of course!
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