Mmadness wrote: 4.) The practical route:Purchase a Ford C-Max Energi ... ...Pros: Very practical (can fit a mattress in the back),
You most certainly can't. I'd be highly surprised to get my kid's crib bed into a C-Max. There's only 19.2 cubic feet back there. The Mazda5 has 44.4 cubic feet behind the 2nd row and is oft criticized on this forum as being too small. If you fold down the second row on the C-Max you can get 42.8 cubic feet.
In reply to Javelin: I think you could easily fit an air mattress in the there with the front seats moved forward. With the front seats in the normal position, there is 66" from the hatch to the front seatback. In other words, the C-Max could make a climate controlled tent.
My Aunt and Uncle have a C-max (not the plugin) and the actual mpg it puts out is really disappointing they can barely get over 30 as a best case. And they got it to replace their first gen prius (which was sold to my cousin)
I was disappointed in the full electric range of the ENERGI as well
what about used? The Honda insight is a nice range extended car. If I were looking for a pure commuter car, it would be at the top of my list
Too bad that unlimited miles Fit EV lease isn't available in Georgia - it looks like that would be tempting enough for me to actually lease a new car, something I never thought I'd do. Ever. But in between the lower cost of operation and the Georgia tax credits on EVs, it would actually make economic sense.
These still qualify for HOV lane use too, right?
Javelin wrote: I would buy a 2013+ Leaf. It's the most "normal" of a car. I'd get the absolute base model (S) and get the upgraded battery as the only option.
I just so happen to currently be looking into one of these. As long as I can get charging at work, I would save enough in energy costs alone over my current Fit to justify the lease payments on a base (S). Gas plus depreciation would justify the next level up (SV). I don't know about how much difference they make, but the SV does come standard with a more efficient heat pump system for basic interior heating and cooling needs, as well as the availability of LED headlights with the upgraded charger. These seem potentially worthwhile for people who may be pushing closer to the cars range limits during the colder/darker/wetter months.
nderwater wrote: These still qualify for HOV lane use too, right?
They do yes
Maybe where you live, but not everywhere though.
Honda just came out with a great leasing program for the Fit EV $295 buy in. Problem is, there won't be many available.
Driven5 wrote:Javelin wrote: I would buy a 2013+ Leaf. It's the most "normal" of a car. I'd get the absolute base model (S) and get the upgraded battery as the only option.I just so happen to currently be looking into one of these. As long as I can get charging at work, I would save enough in energy costs alone over my current Fit to justify the lease payments on a base (S). Gas plus depreciation would justify the next level up (SV). I don't know about how much difference they make, but the SV does come standard with a more efficient heat pump system for basic interior heating and cooling needs, as well as the availability of LED headlights with the upgraded charger. These seem *potentially* worthwhile for people who may be pushing closer to the cars range limits during the colder/darker/wetter months.
Cabin heat is very expensive for an electric. I would say the heat pump is meaningful, and the headlights are not.
Datsun1500 wrote: In reply to Driven5: You do realize charging at work is just passing the cost on to someone else and not actually saving money right? It's saving you money, sure, but someone is paying for it
I'm not sure that's what he meant when he said "if I can plug in at work." Maybe he is in a situation like I am where the commute would be too long for a pure electric to go round trip safely on one charge, but it wouldn't be a problem if he could plug in for the eight hours he's at work.
There's a pair of electric charging stations offered at the parking deck by my office. The juice is free with parking (its a pay lot), but the spots are first come first served.
In reply to Mike: Yeah, I think I agree with Mike on this one. A standard issue space heater is going to draw about 1000W but I would imagine it would have to be even more potent for a car. As we all know, two halogen headlights are going to draw about 120W. Often, Leaf owners will pre-heat the car and then use only the heated seats to save battery. For perspective, the Leaf comes with a 24kwh battery. Bearing that in mind, I'm not so sure the heater will make a signficant difference either.
ProDarwin wrote: Not necessarily electric only, range extended would be fine as well List off the top of my head: Fiat 500E Tesla Volt Prius PHEV Fisker Spark EV (2014) Focus EV Leaf The Spark is definitely the cheapest option for anything new. Is there anything older/more GRM (budget) friendly? A Prius + battery kit? Are there any conversion kits for cars out there that are bolt-in affairs?
Your list suggests you're talking new, but then you bring up old conversions. These are absolutely different goals, as one has a warranty, is well integrated, and works flawlessly as long as you will own it...while conversions are a kludge that will require at best some babysitting and acceptance of a short warranty, and at worst significant amounts of time and money to get working properly and then maintain over your ownership.
What are your real goals? For example, given the option of a $200/month lease on a new vehicle (like a Spark EV, Leaf, 500e, or Fit EV) that has a 2-3 year commitment and ~1000 mile/month limit OR a project that may or may not cost you less in the end but requires more money and risk, which do you prefer? Do you purposefully want to tinker, or do you want a guaranteed low cost of ownership?
Personally, I've got experience with buying new and with conversions. For total cost of ownership for a long-term purchase, my Think City is as cheap as it gets in my opinion. For best value, the Spark/Leaf/500e/Fit leases are no doubt the best value...huge value comes from a volume produced vehicle with factory integration, reliability, and warranty coverage. The lease deals are absolutely awesome, because you not only get a low price (compare it to what you're spending on gas already!!!) but you also have very low commitment...in a few years, when the lease is up, there will be much better cars on the market...a perfect time to upgrade and you'll have a really good understanding of what you're looking for in your next EV after 2/3 years experience. If you just want to learn and tinker, conversions are fun...but not if you need them to be daily driver reliable...even a really good conversion has hiccups on occassion. Conversions are not the best value, the quality is just so good on factory offerings available today that there's no comparison these days.
Bryce
Datsun1500 wrote: I'm pretty site he meant exactly what he said.
I did mean exactly what I said...But I'm pretty sure that I never stated my work had to actually pay for the electricity I used while plugged in there. Nice try, better luck next time!
There are EVSE units capable of tracking individual usage and can be configured to let the whoever is using the electricity pay for it, and it would still make economic sense for us in this scenario. However if my work was willing to offer the minimal cost of the electricity I used to get there in the morning as a perk or incentive for 'going green', it would simply be a little bit more icing on the cake.
Nashco wrote:ProDarwin wrote: Not necessarily electric only, range extended would be fine as well List off the top of my head: Fiat 500E Tesla Volt Prius PHEV Fisker Spark EV (2014) Focus EV Leaf The Spark is definitely the cheapest option for anything new. Is there anything older/more GRM (budget) friendly? A Prius + battery kit? Are there any conversion kits for cars out there that are bolt-in affairs?Your list suggests you're talking new, but then you bring up old conversions. These are absolutely different goals, as one has a warranty, is well integrated, and works flawlessly as long as you will own it...while conversions are a kludge that will require at best some babysitting and acceptance of a short warranty, and at worst significant amounts of time and money to get working properly and then maintain over your ownership. What are your real goals? For example, given the option of a $200/month lease on a new vehicle (like a Spark EV, Leaf, 500e, or Fit EV) that has a 2-3 year commitment and ~1000 mile/month limit OR a project that may or may not cost you less in the end but requires more money and risk, which do you prefer? Do you purposefully want to tinker, or do you want a guaranteed low cost of ownership?
Goals are: something that is near-zero maintenance to buzz around town in. I'm not really looking at new, just posted those out of curiosity. Was hoping there was something older out there I was overlooking I could pick up used. The conversions I would be interested in are the easy plug-n-bolt-n-play stuff - like a 1st or 2nd gen Prius PHEV. A conversion like these could be used both for ultra-cheap in-town transportation and longer distance stuff, replacing my DD all together. The Miata thing I posed was just related subject matter, not anything I would actually consider.
The lease stuff isn't bad, but its still expensive compared to what I'd be spending on a gas car... I'm not going to put 1000 miles a month on a vehicle just around town, and even if I did, that's around $120 in gas. Add to that the down-payments, and the fact that many of the leases aren't available here and its a no go :(
ProDarwin wrote: The lease stuff isn't bad, but its still expensive compared to what I'd be spending on a gas car... I'm not going to put 1000 miles a month on a vehicle just around town, and even if I did, that's around $120 in gas. Add to that the down-payments, and the fact that many of the leases aren't available here and its a no go :(
$120 in gas...plus maintenance, depreciation, etc. Most people aren't used to thinking about those costs and how they factor into a lease because leases are usually a sucker bet. In the case of these latest EVs, it's extremely aggressive pricing for the leases to get asses in seats. Also, note that I got my (2012, SL) Leaf for $220/month TOTAL...that's including the downpayment, monthly, and tax/title/fees. Electricity runs roughly $30/month for 1000 miles per month, so that works out to $250 bucks/month all in, fuel, licensing, taxes, warranty, wear and tear, depreciation, etc. That's including the upcharge for our model that has the DC quick charger (level 3 Chademo), back up camera, etc.
Seriously, if you look at the numbers, it's extremely competitive with even a low-maintenance gas car that only needs oil changes and fuel. Add in a set of tires, clutch, brakes, timing belt, or other miscellaneous items and you're rapidly at the same price as this brand new car. This assumes you're purely focusing on the bottom dollar...but of course, for many people, there's more to it than just the price point for most car purchasers or we'd all be in a Kia.
Many people believe that they couldn't survive with 60-100 miles of range between charges, but if you think it fits your lifestyle you really should run the numbers and visit your local dealers to take a test drive or three with new EVs before considering conversions. The value story for conversions is really poor now that there are ever-improving OEM integrated vehicles available nationwide.
Bryce
I'm pretty sure the only EV available in this area for lease is the Leaf. Did you bargain pretty hard with the dealer? Online that S is listed at $259 + $999 down + $2000 charger.
And yes, I factor maintenance, depreciation, etc. Remember, insurance & property tax will both be huge compared to my DD and both of those are very large factors. Actually, those two things alone could offset the gas savings.
I think they are getting close. The FitEV, or a Leaf for $220/mo all in would be getting close. They would still be more expensive, but the no-maintenance factor would likely be worth it at that point.
ProDarwin wrote: I'm pretty sure the only EV available in this area for lease is the Leaf. Did you bargain pretty hard with the dealer? Online that S is listed at $259 + $999 down + $2000 charger.
I'm not following, where's the $2000 charger coming in??? A 6.6kW charger ranges in price from ~$400 for a DIY to $1000 if you get a fancy one, plus of course electrician installation if you don't already have power in your garage. In my case, I already had power and got a "free" charger through the EV Project, so I was fortunate in paying nothing in the end for my Blink 6.6kW capable EVSE. The Blink charger is a piece of crap, by the way, I definitely don't recommend it.
I didn't take the "advertised" price for the Leaf lease, but I didn't have to bargain too hard. We took a test drive, told them we were cross-shopping a Volt (which is more expensive, but also allows unlimited range) and a Fit EV, and were only interested in a 2 year lease. They told us a price about 50% higher and we walked, explaining we knew dealers were offering significantly better rates than that. Before we could get out of the parking lot, the manager came to us and said IF we had the best credit rating he could offer us the price we ended up paying. Not much haggling there, I'm not one to beat around the bush and play games. Two days later I signed the paperwork and took delivery. I paid about $2000 down and pay the rest (something like $120/month?) in monthly payments. The mynissanleaf.com forums have TONS of chatter about lease deals all the time, so it's best to go over there for Leaf specific discussion that is more timely.
Fast forward 9 months and the options are significantly improved. I plan on selling my Think and purchasing a Spark EV as soon as the Spark EV is available with the DC charge port...couldn't come soon enough! The 500e is right on par with the Spark EV except it doesn't have a DC fast charge option, which is a deal killer for me. The Fit EV lease price just took a major dive AND includes the charger AND insurance with unlimited mileage. That's extremely compelling compared to what I was looking at when they first hit the market here in Oregon (same time I got the Leaf). If the Fit EV had a DC charging port, it'd be the hands-down winner in a lease comparison IMO...it's a much more fun car to drive. We have a great DC charging infrastructure here, but in places without Chademo chargers available, I'd take a Fit EV before a Leaf S.
I didn't include insurance in my price assumptions above because they're a HUGE wildcard. Age, marital status, zip code, driving record, coverage levels, etc. are major variables. As I mentioned above, the Fit EV insurance deal leans things even more in its favor if you have higher rates. I'm confused why you would have to pay property tax on a lease, sounds like a weirdo state law to me...
Anyway, the point is that when you compare these options to a conversion (either DIY or add-on kit) the value story is clearly better for a new lease and is extremely low risk.
Bryce
ProDarwin wrote: I'm pretty sure the only EV available in this area for lease is the Leaf. Did you bargain pretty hard with the dealer? Online that S is listed at $259 + $999 down + $2000 charger. And yes, I factor maintenance, depreciation, etc. Remember, insurance & property tax will both be huge compared to my DD and both of those are *very* large factors. Actually, those two things alone could offset the gas savings. I think they are getting close. The FitEV, or a Leaf for $220/mo all in would be getting close. They would still be more expensive, but the no-maintenance factor would likely be worth it at that point.
The i-MiEV is nationwide too, but it's struggling. It's the only other US offering with chademo, and is rear drive. Big downsides are the small battery, penalty box interior, and rough ride. The price cuts for the Leaf in 2013 kill it a little harder. If you want a good deal though, there have been some super aggressive leases on them. Of course, Tesla is also nationwide, but they aren't the cheapest and offer a lease-like thingy that isn't exactly a lease as far as I can tell.
Nashco wrote:ProDarwin wrote: The lease stuff isn't bad, but its still expensive compared to what I'd be spending on a gas car... I'm not going to put 1000 miles a month on a vehicle just around town, and even if I did, that's around $120 in gas. Add to that the down-payments, and the fact that many of the leases aren't available here and its a no go :($120 in gas...plus maintenance, depreciation, etc. Most people aren't used to thinking about those costs and how they factor into a lease because leases are usually a sucker bet. In the case of these latest EVs, it's extremely aggressive pricing for the leases to get asses in seats. Also, note that I got my (2012, SL) Leaf for $220/month TOTAL...that's including the downpayment, monthly, and tax/title/fees. Electricity runs roughly $30/month for 1000 miles per month, so that works out to $250 bucks/month all in, fuel, licensing, taxes, warranty, wear and tear, depreciation, etc. That's including the upcharge for our model that has the DC quick charger (level 3 Chademo), back up camera, etc. Seriously, if you look at the numbers, it's extremely competitive with even a low-maintenance gas car that only needs oil changes and fuel. Add in a set of tires, clutch, brakes, timing belt, or other miscellaneous items and you're rapidly at the same price as this brand new car. This assumes you're purely focusing on the bottom dollar...but of course, for many people, there's more to it than just the price point for most car purchasers or we'd all be in a Kia. Many people believe that they couldn't survive with 60-100 miles of range between charges, but if you think it fits your lifestyle you really should run the numbers and visit your local dealers to take a test drive or three with new EVs before considering conversions. The value story for conversions is really poor now that there are ever-improving OEM integrated vehicles available nationwide. Bryce
Listen, I did the math myself using a very reliable, somewhat fuel efficient PT Cruiser, and...
...
...
HOLY CRAP YOU'RE RIGHT.
It's actually cheaper to lease a Leaf than it is to own and then sell my car.
CRAP
Question for all leasers: most leases include tax/tag/title at initiation of lease. Do you pay tax on the portion of the car paid for during the lease, or the entire car value?
OK, I did the actual math - longhand with actual insurance numbers. Still makes financial sense to buy used regular car, but not by much - this is with gas at $3.25 and electricity at just under $0.10/kwh and 12k per year.
I saved just over $60/month with the Cruiser over the lease of a Leaf. The Fit would be VERY close, $24/month, because they pay the insurance, but it's not available near me. I'll send the spreadsheet if anyone wants to play with it or criticize it.
Must be nice to have gas that averages only $3.25 per gallon gas where you live! How confident are you that your average gas prices will continue to average that low over the next 2 or 3 years?
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