A solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Still have to produce the electricity so you're just adding a middle-man. Just relocating the pollution. Right now I can drive 400 miles and fill up in 5 minutes and continue. I'm not interested. Fortunately I'm 78 so won't have to worry about the chaos of power outages and the ev's stranded everywhere. Feel free to castigate me. You won't change my mind.
Keith Tanner said:Toyman! said:I'm gonna start marketing an accelerator pedal remapper that limits acceleration to 9s 0-60 - a bit faster than a 1990 Miata.
Why? You just program the acceleration curve in the inverter.
JimS said:A solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Still have to produce the electricity so you're just adding a middle-man. Just relocating the pollution. Right now I can drive 400 miles and fill up in 5 minutes and continue. I'm not interested. Fortunately I'm 78 so won't have to worry about the chaos of power outages and the ev's stranded everywhere. Feel free to castigate me. You won't change my mind.
Jim I'm 74 so it's not hard to figure out.
Solar and wind blows in everybody's place. Here in Minnesota we can get free solar panels installed and hooked up.
The utility companies pay for that. And once you've repaid their cost. ( typically 8-10 years) they last 20+, you get your electricity free and any surplus you get a monthly check for. It's a good deal for the utility companies too.
A new Chevy Bolt will sell for $20,700 once all the rebates etc are figured in. It has a range of 259 miles. ( typical American drives 31 miles a day ) plug it into a regular outlet and 31 miles will recharge before you eat diner. ( from dead flat takes about 12 hours).
Here's the deal, gas cost the average American about $1600 a year Traveling the same distance you'll use $100 worth of electricity a year.
No oil changes ( about $50, no brake jobs (regenerative braking) no going to a gas station to fill up.( how much time will that save you?)
They are fast. Peak torque is at a dead stop not 4800rpm.
Chevy gives a 8 year warrantee and 100,000 miles on the battery. No the battery doesn't go dead, they are projected to last 20 years.
calteg said:the most recent Volvo V70, but full EV. Volvo has needlessly complicated that wagon, I suspect a fully electric version would be much faster and more reliable.
The Volvo EV is based on the 60 series.
Erich said:In reply to tuna55 :
we have the plug-in Pacifica and the only complaint I have is it's a Chrysler product so who knows what the longevity will be. Where we are in Michigan there's no full electric that would do a road trip to and around the Upper Peninsula with current infrastructure, so any road tripper currently needs to be a hybrid in my opinion. This may change someday, but right now a BEV is better for interurban trips.
Here's the current crop of >70kw DC CCS chargers in Northern Michigan. There are currently two locations with one plug each in the UP. Not good.
I'm not a fan of Chrysler either but I'll bet the EV's will be more reliable than the ICE'.
Instead of one stroke out of 4 Making power the electric motor is always making power as it revolves. It does't need an oil pump, camshafts valves, pushrods, a transmission etc etc etc. just a simple electric motor that goes backwards as well as forwards.
They all use the same basic battery cells in various configurations.
frenchyd said:Since converting one of those to a stick shift is possible, would you do it?
No. The point of those luxo barges to me is no shifting, cool AC, smooth ride, etc. Modern brakes would be a nice addition.
In reply to frenchyd :
Your math only works for people who buy brand new cars at reasonable prices. And less people commute everyday to work than in 2018.
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) said:frenchyd said:Since converting one of those to a stick shift is possible, would you do it?
No. The point of those luxo barges to me is no shifting, cool AC, smooth ride, etc. Modern brakes would be a nice addition.
They aren't my taste either, although under certain circumstances might be fun to drive again.
There are some who want to manually shift and feel cheated if they can't.
That's OK for them. Heck, buy what you want. Enjoy it right up to the point it interferes with my enjoyment of something else.
yupididit said:In reply to frenchyd :
Your math only works for people who buy brand new cars at reasonable prices. And less people commute everyday to work than in 2018.
We are talking about math? The average person does spend $1600 a year for gas. An Electric used in my state would be hard to calculate. My granddaughter tells me there are outlets on campus to plug your car heater in but some are charging their car for free. Same thing at the bus company I work at. Plenty of outlets to plug into for the buses. They've told us we can use them because that's where we park our cars while driving the bus. But budget $100 a year to be sure.
Then there are 2&1/2 oil changes a year you'd save on and brake jobs you wouldn't need.
Now a new car will cost less than $300 a month on a 6 year loan.*after Jan 1.
Used cars? Impossible to calculate. Are you a skilled mechanic with your own tools? If the engine / transmission goes out do you fix it or throw the car away?
What other problems did the previous owner ignore? How close to that magical 200,000 mile mark are you? According to consumer reports less than 1% of all cars achieve that. (I question that because I always get well over that). But they claim documentation.
In reply to frenchyd :
Still wondering which EV you drive.
frenchyd said:yupididit said:In reply to frenchyd :
Your math only works for people who buy brand new cars at reasonable prices. And less people commute everyday to work than in 2018.
We are talking about math? The average person does spend $1600 a year for gas. An Electric used in my state would be hard to calculate. My granddaughter tells me there are outlets on campus to plug your car heater in but some are charging their car for free. Same thing at the bus company I work at. Plenty of outlets to plug into for the buses. They've told us we can use them because that's where we park our cars while driving the bus. But budget $100 a year to be sure.
Then there are 2&1/2 oil changes a year you'd save on and brake jobs you wouldn't need.
Now a new car will cost less than $300 a month on a 6 year loan.*after Jan 1.
Used cars? Impossible to calculate. Are you a skilled mechanic with your own tools? If the engine / transmission goes out do you fix it or throw the car away?
What other problems did the previous owner ignore? How close to that magical 200,000 mile mark are you? According to consumer reports less than 1% of all cars achieve that. (I question that because I always get well over that). But they claim documentation.
Okay. You get nowhere repeatedly posting this information everytime someone says an EV isn't for them or that your math/logic/justification doesn't fit in every situation. Again, your math or reasoning only means anything for someone who is looking to buy a brand new car. And they somehow get a new EV for $15k over a 72 month loan, otherwise under $300 a month isn't it.
Getting back to the original question...
I want an EV that's moderately priced, has moderate performance, and looks like a regular car - I'm not interested in an oversized SUV or a supercar or something that's styled to scream "look at me, I'm electric". Of current EVs, the Tesla model S is about the only one that is genuinely attractive to me but I'm not in the market for a car that costs over $100k. The Tesla model 3 is closer to my requirements but I'm not as crazy about its looks, it's still on the pricey side, and I don't need a car that can do 11 second quarter miles.
My current ride is an e28 5 series BMW. I'd like something about the same size and form factor, and as much fun to drive. I'll gladly trade some of that super performance for range - say, a car that only runs 13s in the quarter (which is still pretty darn quick for a daily driven street car) with a 400+ mile range. Price it reasonably, say $45k, and we can talk.
On one hand, I totally get the whole "We want an EV that looks like any other car". On the other hand, FUTURE. I want it to look like the cool future we were promised in the 80s and 90s with chrome and hovering. I don't want to see a single fleck of silver paint.
I'd want two vehicles that specifically play to EVs strengths- one of them, I want to be the cheapest, fastest vehicle possible. I want the unholy cross union of a Dodge Demon with the Aptera; and what's scary is that this idea is somewhat possible. Basically go full aero, coupe body, small frontal area, lithium iron phosphate battery, and build it to go straight as controlled and stable as possible. I want a sub 30K car that keeps up with the Plaid, and from seeing some builds like that in the eBike world I think it's doable. Sticking to LiFePO4 also means you have a battery that both discharges enough to power it, while also being long-lived (10+ years!) and safe in case something happens.
The other I think, would be like the AR platform of EVs. Canoo is trying to do this now with their platform, but I'd basically want the S10 of EVs using LFP Blade batteries in a chassis that's easily "topped" with either a truck or a van body. I'd want each one to either prioritize range or AWD, your battery choice is either cheaper/hardier/longer-life LFP or Longer range/faster charging Li-ion, you're inverters can be either V2G or not, you can have solar on top or not... I want an EV that's like modern home computers, endlessly customizable.
A Rivian or Lightening that I can actually afford.
4wd, room for 4 adults, 6+ foot bed that can carry 1,000lbs or so. 250-300 mile range would put it on par with pretty much every other vehicle I've ever owned.
The shape of my knees, back, and hatred for sharing the road with idiots, I'll NEVER go more than 300 miles in one shot without stopping for a while anyway, and 95% of my driving is within 50 miles of home.
I'm a sports car guy for the most part, at heart. The rest of the fleet could be EV quite easily for all it matters to me. The LS400 and GMC 2500 both are fairly quiet and reasonably torquey, so they're not entirely unlike an EV, driven the way they tend to feel most natural.
My sports cars, on the other hand... To me, weight is paramount, followed by aural excitement. The Exocet would be a hoot with an EV conversion, but my main requirement is that it doesn't put on more weight than the removal of the BP Miata drivetrain allows for. It also needs enough range to be able to make it through a full day of autocross. Currently, that's not quite doable. I don't need it to be super powerful, the BP in it is plenty enough as is for the most part. The instant torque is the appeal here.
The Supra, its biggest appeal is the noises it makes, and the driving dynamics it brings to the table. Not an EV on earth that would make noises as exciting, by nature, but that's perfectly fine. Most sporty EV's would gap me badly in almost any competition aside from top speed, but you'd have to wipe the smile off my face from hearing all those delicious noises before I'd be bothered to care.
XKCD did a great parallel with rockets, in their "What If?" series. The trouble with rockets is that the more power and range you need, the more fuel you have to take on board, which requires more power and range, which requires more fuel, which requires more... well, you get the point. There's a balance that seems to apply to EV's currently. Maybe when I'm older, sports cars will be both lithe and electric, but for now...
triumph7 said:Keith Tanner said:Toyman! said:I'm gonna start marketing an accelerator pedal remapper that limits acceleration to 9s 0-60 - a bit faster than a 1990 Miata.
Why? You just program the acceleration curve in the inverter.
Because I'm assuming I won't have access to the code in the inverter, but I will have the ability to intercept and modify the signal from the accelerator pedal.
frenchyd said:Keith Tanner said:In reply to yupididit :
Because US consumers buy more SUVs and CUVs than minivans. Check out the top 25, there isn't a sliding door in sight: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g36005989/best-selling-cars-2021/
But this is coming, and VW has upped their production estimates already.
I wonder what the priority is going to be, is it reasonable to look at total production and assume that's the order various types will come out in?
I would think so. You go for the biggest market you can. There's a reason Ford started with a SUV and an F150 for their EVs.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Didn't Ford make an electric Focus as well?
In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :
I don't count compliance EVs. Those were just built to meet certain state regulations and were minimum effort.
yupididit said:frenchyd said:yupididit said:In reply to frenchyd :
Your math only works for people who buy brand new cars at reasonable prices. And less people commute everyday to work than in 2018.
We are talking about math? The average person does spend $1600 a year for gas. An Electric used in my state would be hard to calculate. My granddaughter tells me there are outlets on campus to plug your car heater in but some are charging their car for free. Same thing at the bus company I work at. Plenty of outlets to plug into for the buses. They've told us we can use them because that's where we park our cars while driving the bus. But budget $100 a year to be sure.
Then there are 2&1/2 oil changes a year you'd save on and brake jobs you wouldn't need.
Now a new car will cost less than $300 a month on a 6 year loan.*after Jan 1.
Used cars? Impossible to calculate. Are you a skilled mechanic with your own tools? If the engine / transmission goes out do you fix it or throw the car away?
What other problems did the previous owner ignore? How close to that magical 200,000 mile mark are you? According to consumer reports less than 1% of all cars achieve that. (I question that because I always get well over that). But they claim documentation.
Okay. You get nowhere repeatedly posting this information everytime someone says an EV isn't for them or that your math/logic/justification doesn't fit in every situation. Again, your math or reasoning only means anything for someone who is looking to buy a brand new car. And they somehow get a new EV for $15k over a 72 month loan, otherwise under $300 a month isn't it.
I've sold both new and used cars 2 separate occasions in my life. First in 1974 when I got out of the service.
And again in 2014
Things really hadn't changed a bit.
New cars sell for close to dealer cost. A $500 profit was considered a home run.
A used car is what you always made big commissions on. $5000 profit was pretty normal. My commission checks would show $300 commission for selling a new car. And $2000 or more for the used ones.
People are very good as second grade math. This is less money than that. But they are lousy at values. They refer to guides like KBB and others for what others are willing to pay. Not how much that particular car is actually worth. I'd see these miserable trade ins come in. With a few dents, torn seats, worn tires dirty and even a few rust spots. We'd generously allow them $10,000 but up to $5,000 of that came off the list price of what they were buying. We'd send it through the clean up company and it would come out gleaming, clean shiny and with no visible defects. New tires, smelling good. At only $14,999. We'd do a little shifty changy on their trade in and Make our $5000 profit. Their trade in which we actually allowed $3000 for would go through the same thing and again we'd wind up with $5000 profit. And another trade in to sell at another $5000 profit.
No $5000 wasn't all we made some used deals made $10,000 or more!!!!
If you look at car ownership costs. When new there is no maintenance. Make your payment and that's about it. Right about the point the car gets paid off comes the repair work. In general the costs go up the longer you hold on to it.
We tend to fool ourselves because we don't charge us for the fair market value of our labor. If we did we couldn't afford to own them.
So since EV's really are pretty new yes most will be new. And the monthly payment for the Leaf or the Bolt which will serve 95% of people perfectly could be as low as $250-275 a month.
But some people think that a $3000 used car is a better deal than a $30,000 car because of depreciation.
Well it is if you buy cars to sell them. But it isn't if you buy cars to use them.
I'd have a daily driver EV in a heartbeat, because they're cheap to run, quick off the line, and you can flog them mercilessly without any trouble.
However, my perfect EV is actually a Full Hybrid (Not Plug In) side by side.
Instant torque from drive motor. Ability to charge battery at peak power with their mid mounted, peaky turbo motor. Quick fill ups off the grid with fuel. Regen braking for descending hills and improving fuel economy. Small to medium sized battery mounted on the floor make the inherent tippyness of side by sides, all protected by skid plates of course.
Someone needs to get on this before I do.
te72 said:I'm a sports car guy for the most part, at heart. The rest of the fleet could be EV quite easily for all it matters to me. The LS400 and GMC 2500 both are fairly quiet and reasonably torquey, so they're not entirely unlike an EV, driven the way they tend to feel most natural.
My sports cars, on the other hand... To me, weight is paramount, followed by aural excitement. The Exocet would be a hoot with an EV conversion, but my main requirement is that it doesn't put on more weight than the removal of the BP Miata drivetrain allows for. It also needs enough range to be able to make it through a full day of autocross. Currently, that's not quite doable. I don't need it to be super powerful, the BP in it is plenty enough as is for the most part. The instant torque is the appeal here.
The Supra, its biggest appeal is the noises it makes, and the driving dynamics it brings to the table. Not an EV on earth that would make noises as exciting, by nature, but that's perfectly fine. Most sporty EV's would gap me badly in almost any competition aside from top speed, but you'd have to wipe the smile off my face from hearing all those delicious noises before I'd be bothered to care.
XKCD did a great parallel with rockets, in their "What If?" series. The trouble with rockets is that the more power and range you need, the more fuel you have to take on board, which requires more power and range, which requires more fuel, which requires more... well, you get the point. There's a balance that seems to apply to EV's currently. Maybe when I'm older, sports cars will be both lithe and electric, but for now...
I believe you're wrong. To me, (IMHO) the finest exhaust sound is that of a 3 liter Ferrari V12 at about 7000 rpm.
That high octave scream is unlike anything you can hear today so it's understandable you can't appreciate it.
Those cars are all multi million dollar investments and just not a viable to hear screaming away at peak revs.
Now-days all that's left is some Japanese tuners best attempt to achieve that with a 4 or 6 cylinder something. But it's like a country Western singer attempting to sing Opera. Just not going to make it, no matter how good.
Enzo Ferrari was brilliant he used slightly too small exhaust pipes to broaden the torque of his little 3 liters.
Giving his cars a quicker shot out from the corners knowing once ahead it was easier to stay ahead than to catch and pass. It also gave the cars A distinctive note
A 12 cylinder will have 3 cylinders at a time giving the exhaust note. Since the pipe length is slightly different length the note each three some was much more authoritarian than any 4, 6, 8 cylinder will be. The 8 cylinder because of the firing order you basically hear 6 cylinders and a stumble( that's what gives a V8 it's distinctive rumble).
Even modern V12's are bigger sometimes much bigger than Ferrari's 3 liter was. You can hear all 12 cylinders if the exit from the rear of the car but they no longer have the high Octave scream.
What you hear with a 12 cylinder will fool you it's sounds as if the engine is idling fast, 1500 rpm But a glance at the tach will show 600 rpm that's what a 12 cylinder sounds like today the V8 has is stumble and a six cylinder can sound different depending on its configuration
In line six with a cross flow head is one with a same side head is another and the Hemi is unique unto itself
Then there is the V6 and flat 6
In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :
They did - my dad had one, then on to me. Very nice EV, hampered by a small battery.
In reply to frenchyd :
I'm not saying there aren't better sounding engines out there than my Supra, but dance with the one you're with, I believe is the saying? I could see if my neighbors would let me sell their houses so I could zoom up and down the streets in a 60's Ferrari, but something tells me that'd be a hard sell.
Tiny box city car, with AWD and 400hp+. Grocery getting / stop light warrior.
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