Wheel bearing play I don't understand

2013 Rio5 SX. Same car I've been fighting stupid sittin issues since I bought it. Right front bearing had play. I assumed it was the bearing, went through the whole fiasco of replacing the knuckle, hub, bearing and now axle on that side due to corrosion issues. Exact same amount of play was still present. The bearing makes zero noise. It does not get hot when driving high speeds long distance. But the play was still there. So I assumed (again) that it was the cheap bearing Id replaced it with was just not right. Since I'd used a National branded bearing made in the same location as the OE Kia bearing I thought it was safe to assume (again) that would fix it. Tore it apart Sunday. I measured the ID on both sides of the bearing to make sure it wasn't an install issue where one side is a fraction larger than the other. Install new bearing, reinstall new hub, put back on the car and the play is STILL there. 

What am I missing? It has had the same movement on the OE knuckle/hub/bearing, then the new aftermarket knuckle/hub and bearing and now the replacement bearing in the second hub and bearing. It makes no noise. It doesn't get hot. All the grease and seals were perfect on the one I removed. No signs of overheating etc. I'm at the point of just send it because I'm not seeing any extra tire wear, its not noisy and it isn't going to fall off. 

Thoughts?

Same movement with all OE vs all new makes me think the play is outside these parts.

Have you checked the lower ball joint?

You can see the rotor move inside the caliper bracket.... and it moves in all directions. 

Longshot....but any chance the axle nut is bottomed out and the bearing just isn't being pushed into the outer race far enough? What happens if you deliberately over tighten the nut? You should be able to create too much drag on it.

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

same nut, same hub, same brand axle on the passenger side doesn't have that same problem. But I've tried over tightening it but these are required to be torqued to 212ftlbs. I've used my 3' breaker with a 3' extension until I can't turn anymore.

Also, I'm not familiar with Kias, but did you replace the cartridge bearing that the hub is pressed into, or just the outer bearing that's inside the hub?

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

You should be able to stall an impact gun and not affect wheel bearing play or preload.  I've had to do this on Optimas with axle ping, factory torque won't cut it.

As far as the problem child goes... If the wheel bearing is a press fit in the upright, and the hub is a press fit in the bearing, it's got to be a defective bearing.

bobzilla said:

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

same nut, same hub, same brand axle on the passenger side doesn't have that same problem. But I've tried over tightening it but these are required to be torqued to 212ftlbs. I've used my 3' breaker with a 3' extension until I can't turn anymore.

Is the nut bottoming out on a shoulder of the axle before compressing the bearing?

Also, does the rotor slide over the hub?  If so, can you put some lug nuts on it and see if the play goes away?  

What happens when you have the wheel on it?  Any play when you try to move the entire wheel?

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

You can only get play with the wheel on. You need the extra leverage of the wheel bolted on to get the play. The rotors are slide on, and have the honda style set screws to hold them in place. Cannot get the play because of a lack of leverage.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

but 3 defective bearings (including the original) in a row? How likely is that honestly?

wvumtnbkr said:

bobzilla said:

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

same nut, same hub, same brand axle on the passenger side doesn't have that same problem. But I've tried over tightening it but these are required to be torqued to 212ftlbs. I've used my 3' breaker with a 3' extension until I can't turn anymore.

Is the nut bottoming out on a shoulder of the axle before compressing the bearing?

 

Also, does the rotor slide over the hub?  If so, can you put some lug nuts on it and see if the play goes away?  

 

What happens when you have the wheel on it?  Any play when you try to move the entire wheel?

Is there a washer that is supposed to be behind the nut that is missing?

I don't know about Kia and your specific model, but I know Hyundai had a TSB on the Elantra's that included adding a washer/shim to the axle to remove play at the hub. My Elantra was a 2011, but I think it covered a few model years after mine. 
 

Since there is some overlap and sharing between the Korean manufacturers it might be worth checking out. 
 

edit: the shims went on the axle side of the hub, not the nut side. 

In reply to eastsideTim :

No washers on either side.  Checked the wifes 2012 and it doesn't have an either.

In reply to No Time :

That side had a ton of rust. I wonder if it didn't have one that rusted away? 

I'm having same difficulty following the chain of events, so just to make sure its clear  what's been done:

- New wheel bearing (original + 2 replacements 

- New hub (1 time)

- New axle (1 time)

Chain of events:

Initial problem: play in the bearing. Was it noisy or just excessive play?

Initial repair: 

-replaced knuckle

- new discount wheel bearing

- new hub

- reused axle

After the repair the play was still there.

Second attempt:

- new name brand bearing

- reused hub from first attempt

- new aftermarket axle

Is that correct?

 
Is it possible the hub is bottoming out on the axle before properly preloading the bearing? It would only take a few thousandths interference to reduce preload, and no matter how much torque is applied the preload wouldn't increase.

If you are going to try again I would suggest getting a new hub to go with the bearing.

When disassembling you can check the Hub and bearing fit before removal, including how deep the hub is from the edge of the bearing race on the axle side. 

You can also compare the new and old hub to see if there is any different in the chamfering of the spline for the axle and depth it presses into the bearing.

In reply to No Time :

Whole timeline:

Brought home, tires were loud, brakes were rusty. When tearing down for that I found play in the passenger front bearing. Due to rust issuesI replaced:  knuckle, hub and cheap bearing. Reused the old axle.

The old axle was pretty mushroomed from the effort to extract, and the drivers side had a place where it was trying to rust in two so I bought both axles new. Drivers side had same issue as passenger so it also got a new hub, bearing and this time a quality bearing. This side went together with no play. Installed new passenger axle and still had the same play. 

At this point the car has driven almost 5k miles, seen 4 tracks and it makes zero noise, no tire wear just play in that right wheel. 

Last week I bought a new, quality bearing to replace the cheap fast to get bearing. This was installed in the new knuckle with the new hub. Still has play. Still makes no noise. Makes no heat. just has slop. 3 bearings, 2 axles, 2 hubs and 2 knuckles all have the same issue. 

While it was out I did check the new and old hub. Other than flange thickness ( the new was a little thicker than OE), the depth and champfering were the same. 

The hub stops inside the bearing about 1/16" I guess it is possible this isn't enough to preload.... but I dont know 

In reply to bobzilla :

I have never seen a bad bearing make heat.  Lots with play but no noise, noise but no play.

A washer behind the nut (or axle) can't hurt, to verify that there isn't a weird stack-up issue.

Slide the hub onto the axle spline and see if it will slide on past where it stops when it is installed in the bearing as a test. Compare the space between the hub and the CV flange to be sure it is smaller than the space you see within the bearing when the hub is in the bearing.

Is the nut tightening on the axle or pinching the hub? If too much axle sticks out it won't pinch the bearing when you tighten the nut.

Unless maybe the second knuckle you got is also wobbled out.

I've got a stack of pinion shims for the sierra's rear end in different thicvknesses.  I think we shall try pulling the axle and shimming the back side to see if that makes a difference. 

If you are doing that then it might be good to try and measure clearances. 

One method is to use clay/play dough/plumbers putty around the axle before shimming to see if it all gets squeezed out when tightening it down.

You could also try to cut a shim from a plastic milk jug and use it like a redneck plastic gage and measure the thickness after torquing the axle so you can remove some of the guesswork on shimming the axle  

Finally checked my stash. Looks like I have shims in 3 sizes and 2 of them will work (ones for the back side and ones for the front). I think tonight I'll pop the axle and see if I can see where it's touching and maybe try a few shims. 

Well, that didn't change anything. Now what? 
edit: let me clarify the spacer install was flawless. There's just still play. About the same as there always has been. 

Does the rotor sit flat against the hub and hub/rotor move, or is the rotor moving on the hub? I am thinking of something like the rotor not having enough clearance for the radius on the hub.

This feels like grasping at straws, but...

Rotor is not only right fit, they are also screwed onto the hub and the wheel is bolted on top of that.