Wheel to wheel racing is different than cone racing. It’s where a slower car can beat a faster car.
Before we begin let us speak about rules. If you pass someone it’s your responsibility to do so safely without contact. Especially in vintage racing where any contact is a complete no-no.
The safest way to do that is know who you are racing with. Don’t go charging past someone without being sure of what that person will do. We are not professional racers who’s livelihood depends on your last results.
Don't depend on the corner workers to understand your driving style and recognize a set up for a pass in time to wave the blue flag.
In reply to frenchyd :
Outbraking is the most common method to pass a faster car. But how you out brake determines the difference between a successful pass and a collision in the corner.
When the person you intend to outbrake moves to the outside of the corner you stay inside of him. To be completed safely you must be ahead of your opponent by the time he reached his turn in point. You know that because you know your opponent. Either you’ve raced him before or you followed him enough to become familiar with his techniques / style.
A brief word about the pronoun He/ him. Yes I know some racers are women, however racing is a form of battle and in battle the object is to win not be polite. Gentlemen will treat ladies properly off the race track with all due deference but once the green flag drops those distinctions stop.
In reply to frenchyd :
Once you are abreast of your opponent. He can’t turn in until you turn up the track. That allows you additional time to slow down which you will need because you are off line. The object is to gain a position not turn your fastest lap time. The winner after all is the one who crosses the line first, even if it is a friendly dice between friends for 23rd place.
Never ever assume the other guy knows you are there.
Always have a place to go if things go wrong.
The best drivers don’t talk much in the paddock but will give you all the information you want if asked.
In reply to dean1484 :
doesn't it depend on who they are with? I know things get pretty vocal around the campfire with a beer in your hand.
On the other hand a lot of that is blather about cars and stuff other than driving technique.
Well, sometimes old hands will take a newbie aside and try to help them fit in and drive safer.
The counter to the over-braking technique if it’s being done to you is to brake hard enough so you are behind him before he can slow down enough to turn up the track. That way you wind up blocking him and he winds up following your tailites to the next corner.
frenchyd said:
In reply to frenchyd :
Outbraking is the most common method to pass a faster car. But how you out brake determines the difference between a successful pass and a collision in the corner.
When the person you intend to outbrake moves to the outside of the corner you stay inside of him. To be completed safely you must be ahead of your opponent by the time he reached his turn in point. You know that because you know your opponent. Either you’ve raced him before or you followed him enough to become familiar with his techniques / style.
A brief word about the pronoun He/ him. Yes I know some racers are women, however racing is a form of battle and in battle the object is to win not be polite. Gentlemen will treat ladies properly off the race track with all due deference but once the green flag drops those distinctions stop.
This is easily the exact reason online racing has so many wrecks per race. Nobody gives up once out braked. And the passer thinks he has the pass under control when he hasn’t even gotten the nose beyond the competition’s rear bumper.
In reply to Trackmouse :
I’m sorry I can’t identify with online stuff. Where is the heat? The vibration? G Forces? The thrill? Make a mistake just reset and go again. It’s like a roller coaster. You know it’s safe because millions of people ride them everyday and real accidents are extremely rare.
In the real world cars get damaged or people get hurt. There is a real cost to mistakes. When I started racing it was called a blood sport because so many people died. Now it’s much much safer. Some say too safe.
frenchyd said:
In reply to Trackmouse :
I’m sorry I can’t identify with online stuff. Where is the heat? The vibration? G Forces? The thrill? Make a mistake just reset and go again. It’s like a roller coaster. You know it’s safe because millions of people ride them everyday and real accidents are extremely rare.
In the real world cars get damaged or people get hurt. There is a real cost to mistakes. When I started racing it was called a blood sport because so many people died. Now it’s much much safer. Some say too safe.
Completely agree. Online racing seems like a ton of fun, and if I had the time, I'd do it. But I would never take it all that seriously.
Anyway, to the question at hand...two tips:
Eyes up
You can't win a race in the first corner, but you sure as hell can lose it.
In reply to Klayfish :
Well yes and no! (About the first corner) I’ve qualified slightly slower than a similar car and a good start or smart placement going into the corner can put me ahead of the guy and the difference between us cant be overcome after that.
On the other hand you are absolutely right that you can blow it by acting without thinking.
My favorite example is in 1986 during the Bahama Vintage week. Steve Kline anticipated the start better than Sir Stirling Moss did and put himself in front of Moss going into the first corner. Now Sir Stirling Moss is a world class driver and the Aston Martin he drove was capable of beating Steve’s Echidna but the difference between the two cars couldn’t be overcome.
Learning from that lesson in the big final race Sir Stirling Moss jumped over and blocked Steve Kline which opened a hole up and put me in second place where I finished.
As a side note Sir Stirling Moss was paid a reported $50,000 to drive for the Aston Martin factory. Losing to the Chevy powered Echidna was a major embarrassment because Ford motor company was there in part to buy Aston Martin. Ford himself was there.
That’s why Moss tried so hard to get around! I had a great viewpoint, I was running 3rd. In the end Sir Stirling Moss won the class, I finished 2nd and Steve Kline was third but he got the greatest compliment I’ve ever heard,
” When the amateurs drive like pro’s the Pro’s have to drive like professionals”
Trackmouse said:
frenchyd said:
In reply to frenchyd :
Outbraking is the most common method to pass a faster car. But how you out brake determines the difference between a successful pass and a collision in the corner.
When the person you intend to outbrake moves to the outside of the corner you stay inside of him. To be completed safely you must be ahead of your opponent by the time he reached his turn in point. You know that because you know your opponent. Either you’ve raced him before or you followed him enough to become familiar with his techniques / style.
A brief word about the pronoun He/ him. Yes I know some racers are women, however racing is a form of battle and in battle the object is to win not be polite. Gentlemen will treat ladies properly off the race track with all due deference but once the green flag drops those distinctions stop.
This is easily the exact reason online racing has so many wrecks per race. Nobody gives up once out braked. And the passer thinks he has the pass under control when he hasn’t even gotten the nose beyond the competition’s rear bumper.
True, but if they had any small amount of intelligence, they can get it right back.
It's easy to see, OK, he got the run on me out of the last corner and has pulled inside. I'm going to brake a touch early, let him have the inside and see if he can make it stick (9 out 10 they can't) sharper initial turn-in for me, to cut underneath when the understeer out of the corner before apex.
frenchyd said:
In reply to Trackmouse :
I’m sorry I can’t identify with online stuff. Where is the heat? The vibration? G Forces? The thrill? Make a mistake just reset and go again. It’s like a roller coaster. You know it’s safe because millions of people ride them everyday and real accidents are extremely rare.
In the real world cars get damaged or people get hurt. There is a real cost to mistakes. When I started racing it was called a blood sport because so many people died. Now it’s much much safer. Some say too safe.
Not everyone has the money to do that.
Once you get up the hierarchy in something like iRacing, most guys take it very seriously and race respectfully as if there is something physical to lose.
frenchyd said:
When I started racing it was called a blood sport because so many people died. Now it’s much much safer. Some say too safe.
I am from the same time period. We would always look around the paddock or at a drivers meeting at the beginning of a season and it was almost guaranteed that we would be attending the funeral of some one that is in the room. It was just how it was. There was a very different kind fo respect between drivers then as the consequences were much higher. I really think it is the reason that you see all the stupid stuff in the spec miata races. It is to safe and for the most part the drivers today have always had modern safety equipment and don't have the mind set that banging bumping chopping some ones nose or running some one wide on a high speed corner exit can be fatal.
frenchyd said:
In reply to Klayfish :
Well yes and no! (About the first corner) I’ve qualified slightly slower than a similar car and a good start or smart placement going into the corner can put me ahead of the guy and the difference between us cant be overcome after that.
On the other hand you are absolutely right that you can blow it by acting without thinking.
My favorite example is in 1986 during the Bahama Vintage week. Steve Kline anticipated the start better than Sir Stirling Moss did and put himself in front of Moss going into the first corner. Now Sir Stirling Moss is a world class driver and the Aston Martin he drove was capable of beating Steve’s Echidna but the difference between the two cars couldn’t be overcome.
Learning from that lesson in the big final race Sir Stirling Moss jumped over and blocked Steve Kline which opened a hole up and put me in second place where I finished.
You're right, but I'm looking at it from the perspective of endurance road racing (LeMons), which is what I do. In a race that lasts 15 hours over two days, and has 120 cars on the race track at the drop of the green flag, you're not going to win the race in turn 1 of lap 1, but you can ruin the entire weekend. I know I'll never be the fastest guy on the track, but my mindset is that I'm there for fun first, competition second. I want to win, and I drive the car hard, but not at the expense of ruining the car for myself and my teammates, or getting hurt. So I'll be the one to back off if we're about to go 3 wide into a turn, or won't stick my nose in a spot where I'm not completely sure the other driver knows I'm there and will give me the room. Not worth the risk.
frenchyd said:
In reply to Trackmouse :
I’m sorry I can’t identify with online stuff. Where is the heat? The vibration? G Forces? The thrill? Make a mistake just reset and go again. It’s like a roller coaster. You know it’s safe because millions of people ride them everyday and real accidents are extremely rare.
In the real world cars get damaged or people get hurt. There is a real cost to mistakes. When I started racing it was called a blood sport because so many people died. Now it’s much much safer. Some say too safe.
Right. But I can learn the basics of racing without making a one time, non-refundable error.
In reply to z31maniac :
Well said, that is called an up and over pass! Another variation, once those two pass attempts have occurred is where they both try to out-brake the other and both wind up going off course.
In that case they usually lose to whoever is next
In reply to frenchyd :
You raced against Stirling Moss?!?!?!? You are my new hero. 
Trackmouse said:
In reply to frenchyd :
You raced against Stirling Moss?!?!?!? You are my new hero.
More to the point, raced against Sir Stirling and came in 2nd behind him 
In reply to WildScotsRacingCampbellCougarSeed : To be fair in six races I only beat him once. That was the autocross.
With an 88 inch wheelbase and a 50 Inch wide Track I was a lot shorter and narrower than Sir Stirling Moss’s Aston Martin so it really wasn’t fair.
In reply to Trackmouse :
My daughter recently got me time on an airline simulator. In it they arranged me to fly to New York City and do a loop around the Statue of Liberty. Yawn...
Compared to Landing a piston engined aircraft on a World War 2 Essex class aircraft carrier at night in a heavy sea state
i remind you none of this Namby Pamby nuclear powered stuff but a nice old fashioned oil burner. You see they throw up a great big heat blanket. When you fly through that the airplane suddenly gains about a hundred feet of altitude moments before you land. Then a moment later you get out of that heat blanket and drop that hundred feet. Cross over the round down and pick a wire to haul you to a stop.
You approach at a little over 105 knots and come to a complete stop in an area about the size of a swimming pool.
Miss and you likely get wet and then run over by a city block made of steel
Life, live it!!
In reply to z31maniac :
i really understand the money issue. Especially right now trying to go racing on a retirement income
What I did in my early years was find the local racers. I went over and started out sweeping the floor, emptying trash cleaning etc
eventually they let me do a little work and about a year later I was driving a new Can Am car powered by a 427 Ford engine built by Holman and Moody.
Hang around racers and be helpful if you haven’t got any money that’s what I would do.
frenchyd said:
... a slower car can beat a faster car.
Not if I’m driving the slower car
You wanna make sure the road racers will give you extra room, and back off in a tight situation? Show up at the drivers meeting in your stock car racing jacket.
