In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
So in a roundabout way, what I'm hearing from you is "cross shop the bolt with the crv the wife wants in the next couple years".
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
So in a roundabout way, what I'm hearing from you is "cross shop the bolt with the crv the wife wants in the next couple years".
Pete. (l33t FS) said:When there is only one "gear", and the motor RPM is not confined to a certain expected range like ICEs, it IS a valid question. Because I don't know.
it's no more valid than if you ask it about any other car, especially when it's been known for YEARS what is meant by that on ANY electric or gas vehicle. And then arguing about it is dumb.
Okay, so that is at the motor. What is the final drive ratio? 2:1? 10:1? There isn't any context to make a comparison yet.
I already said in the thing you quoted. Final drive is 7:1. And the torque delivery is INSTANT unlike a gas car, so it feels like accelerating hard in 2nd gear instantly. And when you let off the go pedal, it's like decelerating in 2nd gear in a manual trans car. The point again is you don't complain about this in a gas car that can have any gear ratio, or when comparing cars you don't (at least normal people don't) compare how the torque feels in every gear. You say "oh, this car has 200 hp and 150 lb ft of torque, therefor it's going to feel slower off the line than a car with 190 hp and 190 lb ft of torque." and you don't go into gear ratios at all (except for the occasional drift into a conversation about swapping rear end ratios in a drag car) Ands this is something that as car guys we already know, But suddenly you don't know squat because the car is powered by electrons rather than exploding dinosaurs? Give me a break.
i still contend that the Bolt is huge, the height IS why it is huge.
If you were actually next to it, it's not huge, just barely taller than the GTI, and that's because the battery is under the car. But it's not a crossover or a damn minivan like some people like to claim.
I think the height issue with the Bolt is more about looking tall than actually being tall.
chaparral said:In reply to dean1484 :
Dean,
I would test-drive a Model 3 Dual Motor. It'll be at least as quick and roomy as your CLS550
My problem is the fit and finish of all-electric cars I have seen is really bad (I have not been in an Etron). This may have improved over the last couple of years but in the couple EV's I have been in the quality of the product was bad. The driveline may be space-age but if the place I sit in is cheap feeling made of poorly fitted plastic and a lack of attention to fit and finish it is not for me. I want a quality car with the fit and finish of a high-end car that just happens to be an EV. I really don't care if my next car is an EV or not. What I will not get is a car that feels like it is cheaply manufactured with no quality control. This goes for any car I purchase this is not an EV only thing with me. My days of cheap econobox feeling cars are over. Been there done that. I have served my time in the world of cheap plastic and poorly fitting interiors. I am at a stage in my life that I can afford to be picky. This is not to say there is not a market for an EV economy car. There definitely is and it should probably be where the manufacturers start. EV's for the masses is a great thing and the 3 is a big step towards that. But those cars are not for me (EV or otherwise). My next car will most likely be an s class Merc. If it is EV that is ok by me but it is not the criteria that I purchase a car by.
STM317 said:dean1484 said:When I find one that is as good or better than my current ride and I need to replace my current ride. I have huge hopes that the big three German manufacturers will get in the game and keep the German car feel fit and finish and it will just happen to be an ev.
If Mercedes can make an EV e350 they would sell boatloads of them. If I could get my CLS 550 in EV I would. It is not the propulsion of a car it is everything else about a car that is important to me. Audi with the etron i think is going to be a game changer in the ev market and we will see the other German manufacturers follow.
The Mercedes EQS is expected to be on sale in the US late 2021:
Saw that. Merc's are definitely going in that direction. I think Tesla saw that the high-end manufacturers were getting into the game and realized that the days of the model s being the only game in town were going to come to an end. When the model s came out it was a 70-100K car (or more) But there was no other competition. As time has gone by the luxury brands are catching up and will offer cars comparable with the model s but with a standard of quality (fit finish and material quality) that is much better. Tesla can not compete with that part of the car manufacturing market (or don't care to try) and they were smart and have since made the model 3 and their SUV thing. Tesla has been very smart in this regard.
In reply to Chris_V :
I'm not complaining or getting worked up, I'm trying to find an understanding. Torque at the motor without context for normal motor RPM is meaningless, and it could be argued that torque at the motor for any single-geared vehicle is meaningless, since you never have to juggle speed versus torque multiplication. It's curious why they would advertise that.
We don't advertise engines' BSFC or BMEP as selling points, not in consumer automotive anyway. Just ruminating here.
The current GTI is not a good benchmark 
The first 5th generation Golf that I ever saw was parked nose-in, so I only saw it from a rear 3/4 view, and I literally thought it was a minivan...
tuna55 said:Keith Tanner said:Chris_V said:Toyman01 + Sized and said:It is hilarious how defensive EV proponents get when discussing their cars. It's as bad as discussing veganism or homosexuality. God forbid someone has a different opinion about the subject. It sets them off like a bomb.
It is hilarious how defensive ICE proponents get when a different method of propulsion is mentioned.
It isn't about a different opinion It's about stupid berkeleying questions that they should know the berkeleying answer to and arguing with ZERO experience for the sake of arguing. JUST LIKE FOR ANY CAR. I mean, how's the torque rated? AT THE MOTOR just like any car. Arguing about torque at the wheels at different gear ratios is berkeleying STUPID. Has nothing to do with an EV or not. If I said my MINI made x number lb ft of torque and some moron said what he said, I'd still respond the same berkeleying way. Yes, this sort of E36 M3 pisses me off.
Agreed. You get tired of hearing the same statements with no thought behind them, and the same ridiculous claims of weekly cross-country trips where you are penalized for actually stopping to eat or pee, and statements like "I'll buy one when I can go 600 miles without stopping and recharge in 60 seconds and it only costs as much as this 2004 Civic I pulled out of a river". It's not the different opinion, it's the uneducated or uninformed opinions. Assume that anyone with experience with an EV has been hearing this kind of thing for a while.
It's not always that bad - Toyman, your wish list for a truck can actually be met today by an ICE, which is unusual in those wish lists - but somehow any discussion gets pushed into black and white, "if it can't do everything it can't do anything" territory almost immediately.
Yes it absolutely blows me away. I went from DD the 88 Accord to DD the Bolt on my 80 mile daily round trip, and despite gas prices nearly doubling, I still get the wacky comments:
"It's just a little wind up car!" - right, with more acceleration and cargo space than your generic CUV
"I'm worried about the battery life over time" says the guy with an Odyssey on its third $4K transmission replacement
"They're expensive!" says the lady with a 84 month loan on a rando Mitsubishi getting 14 MPG
I even had someone complain about the 95 mph top speed.
The wheel torque thing is absurd as well. One silly advertisement talks about wheel torque and everyone suddenly assumes that's somehow an EV thing.
Oh well. I drive past a lot of gas stations every day. This thing is saving me so much money that it will pay for itself and the Accord it replaced within a decade.
And that's the three I expected to hear from.
Chris_V said:I already said in the thing you quoted. Final drive is 7:1. And the torque delivery is INSTANT unlike a gas car, so it feels like accelerating hard in 2nd gear instantly.
This is something you have to experience. I had an e-golf for 3.5 years. On paper, it was ridiculously (for 2015) slow. Like 9.x 0-60. But when you're actually driving it at surface street speeds, it still felt super quick because you were always in the correct gear ('cause there's only one and it makes power over a huge range). My V70R has 300hp but I don't drive around at 4000rpm all day so, in practice, it felt much more sluggish.
Another cool thing: since they make no noise/vibration, you use a lot more of the available performance without thinking of it. That's why non-car people buy objectively slow EVs but rave about how 'fast' they are. Sure, a new Cam-cord goes 0-60 in under 6 seconds, but only if you beat on it in a way that only your teenager does. That's way too much drama for your average car owner in my observation.
Toyman01 + Sized and said:tuna55 said:Keith Tanner said:Chris_V said:Toyman01 + Sized and said:It is hilarious how defensive EV proponents get when discussing their cars. It's as bad as discussing veganism or homosexuality. God forbid someone has a different opinion about the subject. It sets them off like a bomb.
It is hilarious how defensive ICE proponents get when a different method of propulsion is mentioned.
It isn't about a different opinion It's about stupid berkeleying questions that they should know the berkeleying answer to and arguing with ZERO experience for the sake of arguing. JUST LIKE FOR ANY CAR. I mean, how's the torque rated? AT THE MOTOR just like any car. Arguing about torque at the wheels at different gear ratios is berkeleying STUPID. Has nothing to do with an EV or not. If I said my MINI made x number lb ft of torque and some moron said what he said, I'd still respond the same berkeleying way. Yes, this sort of E36 M3 pisses me off.
Agreed. You get tired of hearing the same statements with no thought behind them, and the same ridiculous claims of weekly cross-country trips where you are penalized for actually stopping to eat or pee, and statements like "I'll buy one when I can go 600 miles without stopping and recharge in 60 seconds and it only costs as much as this 2004 Civic I pulled out of a river". It's not the different opinion, it's the uneducated or uninformed opinions. Assume that anyone with experience with an EV has been hearing this kind of thing for a while.
It's not always that bad - Toyman, your wish list for a truck can actually be met today by an ICE, which is unusual in those wish lists - but somehow any discussion gets pushed into black and white, "if it can't do everything it can't do anything" territory almost immediately.
Yes it absolutely blows me away. I went from DD the 88 Accord to DD the Bolt on my 80 mile daily round trip, and despite gas prices nearly doubling, I still get the wacky comments:
"It's just a little wind up car!" - right, with more acceleration and cargo space than your generic CUV
"I'm worried about the battery life over time" says the guy with an Odyssey on its third $4K transmission replacement
"They're expensive!" says the lady with a 84 month loan on a rando Mitsubishi getting 14 MPG
I even had someone complain about the 95 mph top speed.
The wheel torque thing is absurd as well. One silly advertisement talks about wheel torque and everyone suddenly assumes that's somehow an EV thing.
Oh well. I drive past a lot of gas stations every day. This thing is saving me so much money that it will pay for itself and the Accord it replaced within a decade.
And that's the three I expected to hear from.
That was awfully dismissive from you.
And none of what we said was defensive.
mfennell said:Chris_V said:I already said in the thing you quoted. Final drive is 7:1. And the torque delivery is INSTANT unlike a gas car, so it feels like accelerating hard in 2nd gear instantly.
This is something you have to experience. I had an e-golf for 3.5 years. On paper, it was ridiculously (for 2015) slow. Like 9.x 0-60. But when you're actually driving it at surface street speeds, it still felt super quick because you were always in the correct gear ('cause there's only one and it makes power over a huge range). My V70R has 300hp but I don't drive around at 4000rpm all day so, in practice, it felt much more sluggish.
Another cool thing: since they make no noise/vibration, you use a lot more of the available performance without thinking of it. That's why non-car people buy objectively slow EVs but rave about how 'fast' they are. Sure, a new Cam-cord goes 0-60 in under 6 seconds, but only if you beat on it in a way that only your teenager does. That's way too much drama for your average car owner in my observation.
And since they are quiet and smooth and deliver the power linearly with no noise or vibration, even the cheap ones feel like luxury cars. I had my Volt and my E38 7 series at the same time and the Volt actually felt more luxurious in the way it operated (while on battery power, at least). And with the added power of the Bolt, it feels that even more. Yes, the interior has plastic bits (so did my 7 series) and the seats are not the best (the '22s upgraded them quite a bit). But the feel of the door closing and the silence of the power delivery makes gas powered cars feel crude in comparison.
That was when I stil had the 7 series and before I lowered the Volt and added the custom wheels.
tuna55 said:Toyman01 + Sized and said:tuna55 said:Keith Tanner said:Chris_V said:Toyman01 + Sized and said:It is hilarious how defensive EV proponents get when discussing their cars. It's as bad as discussing veganism or homosexuality. God forbid someone has a different opinion about the subject. It sets them off like a bomb.
It is hilarious how defensive ICE proponents get when a different method of propulsion is mentioned.
It isn't about a different opinion It's about stupid berkeleying questions that they should know the berkeleying answer to and arguing with ZERO experience for the sake of arguing. JUST LIKE FOR ANY CAR. I mean, how's the torque rated? AT THE MOTOR just like any car. Arguing about torque at the wheels at different gear ratios is berkeleying STUPID. Has nothing to do with an EV or not. If I said my MINI made x number lb ft of torque and some moron said what he said, I'd still respond the same berkeleying way. Yes, this sort of E36 M3 pisses me off.
Agreed. You get tired of hearing the same statements with no thought behind them, and the same ridiculous claims of weekly cross-country trips where you are penalized for actually stopping to eat or pee, and statements like "I'll buy one when I can go 600 miles without stopping and recharge in 60 seconds and it only costs as much as this 2004 Civic I pulled out of a river". It's not the different opinion, it's the uneducated or uninformed opinions. Assume that anyone with experience with an EV has been hearing this kind of thing for a while.
It's not always that bad - Toyman, your wish list for a truck can actually be met today by an ICE, which is unusual in those wish lists - but somehow any discussion gets pushed into black and white, "if it can't do everything it can't do anything" territory almost immediately.
Yes it absolutely blows me away. I went from DD the 88 Accord to DD the Bolt on my 80 mile daily round trip, and despite gas prices nearly doubling, I still get the wacky comments:
"It's just a little wind up car!" - right, with more acceleration and cargo space than your generic CUV
"I'm worried about the battery life over time" says the guy with an Odyssey on its third $4K transmission replacement
"They're expensive!" says the lady with a 84 month loan on a rando Mitsubishi getting 14 MPG
I even had someone complain about the 95 mph top speed.
The wheel torque thing is absurd as well. One silly advertisement talks about wheel torque and everyone suddenly assumes that's somehow an EV thing.
Oh well. I drive past a lot of gas stations every day. This thing is saving me so much money that it will pay for itself and the Accord it replaced within a decade.
And that's the three I expected to hear from.
That was awfully dismissive from you.
And none of what we said was defensive.
He has nothing material to add to the discussion (other then being an insulting git...)
Personally yeah, I get a bit defensive in the face of repeated lies and insults pounded out by right wing, oil backed cretins and repeated ad nauseum by car guys that should know better, and have done so for the last decade. The fear they have over a different method of moving their metal boxes is palpable. But I call out idiocy and lies no matter what car we are talking about, and will even call out people who like a certain car if they are spouting BS about them (like saying "Skyline GTRs are the greatest cars because their supercharged 4 cyls make 700 hp stock! Let's see your dumbestic car do that!" and yes I've heard that before...).
Are EVs 100% perfect for 100% of the driving population? Of course not (at least not yet), but we don't expect ANY OTHER CAR to be that. Miatas can't tow full size race car trailers and F350 duallys don't autocross worth a damn. But they both have their place. Right now there are no inexpensive EV 2 seat convertible sports cars, so I have a gas one to scratch that itch.
Late to the bandwagon, but I expect my next DD vehicle will be electric. I drive a lot, and gas is a staggering amount of money a month. But I won't upgrade (?) from my gas vehicles till they really die, my 5 year old needs his first car 11 years from now, or Obiden cranks the gas prices to an unaffordable level.
OK, folks. I think I hear Margie's cement mixer warming up.
I think the reason EVs have interiors viewed as cheap is for a few reasons.
1. batteries are expensive. Getting less so, but they're still a significant percentage of the cost of the car. To keep the selling price of the car as low as possible, there may not be as much budget for interior trimmings.
2. There's less noise to control so less sound deadening is required. This may have the side effect of making the interior feel lightweight and tinny - the opposite of the "perceived quality" interior that VW used starting around 2000 that was all soft close and padded.
3. Not everyone buys into the minimalist design. This is mostly for Tesla, who pared the Model 3/Y down to the bare essentials like it was a design exercise. Maybe a little too far according to Germany. But if you judge an interior's quality by the amount of stuff packed into it (consciously or otherwise), then you definitely will react poorly to it. I think this might be generational to some extent and it would be interesting to hear a Japanese take on it. Personally, I know it's harder to do minimalist design than simply shotgunning buttons all over the place, and my M5's interior does not feel any more special than the Tesla's to me even though there's leather on the dashboard and one of them newfangled GPS units in the center stack and a phone button on the steering wheel.
Chris_V said:
tuna55 said:Toyman01 + Sized and said:tuna55 said:Keith Tanner said:Chris_V said:Toyman01 + Sized and said:It is hilarious how defensive EV proponents get when discussing their cars. It's as bad as discussing veganism or homosexuality. God forbid someone has a different opinion about the subject. It sets them off like a bomb.
It is hilarious how defensive ICE proponents get when a different method of propulsion is mentioned.
It isn't about a different opinion It's about stupid berkeleying questions that they should know the berkeleying answer to and arguing with ZERO experience for the sake of arguing. JUST LIKE FOR ANY CAR. I mean, how's the torque rated? AT THE MOTOR just like any car. Arguing about torque at the wheels at different gear ratios is berkeleying STUPID. Has nothing to do with an EV or not. If I said my MINI made x number lb ft of torque and some moron said what he said, I'd still respond the same berkeleying way. Yes, this sort of E36 M3 pisses me off.
Agreed. You get tired of hearing the same statements with no thought behind them, and the same ridiculous claims of weekly cross-country trips where you are penalized for actually stopping to eat or pee, and statements like "I'll buy one when I can go 600 miles without stopping and recharge in 60 seconds and it only costs as much as this 2004 Civic I pulled out of a river". It's not the different opinion, it's the uneducated or uninformed opinions. Assume that anyone with experience with an EV has been hearing this kind of thing for a while.
It's not always that bad - Toyman, your wish list for a truck can actually be met today by an ICE, which is unusual in those wish lists - but somehow any discussion gets pushed into black and white, "if it can't do everything it can't do anything" territory almost immediately.
Yes it absolutely blows me away. I went from DD the 88 Accord to DD the Bolt on my 80 mile daily round trip, and despite gas prices nearly doubling, I still get the wacky comments:
"It's just a little wind up car!" - right, with more acceleration and cargo space than your generic CUV
"I'm worried about the battery life over time" says the guy with an Odyssey on its third $4K transmission replacement
"They're expensive!" says the lady with a 84 month loan on a rando Mitsubishi getting 14 MPG
I even had someone complain about the 95 mph top speed.
The wheel torque thing is absurd as well. One silly advertisement talks about wheel torque and everyone suddenly assumes that's somehow an EV thing.
Oh well. I drive past a lot of gas stations every day. This thing is saving me so much money that it will pay for itself and the Accord it replaced within a decade.
And that's the three I expected to hear from.
That was awfully dismissive from you.
And none of what we said was defensive.
He has nothing material to add to the discussion (other then being an insulting git...)
Personally yeah, I get a bit defensive in the face of repeated lies and insults pounded out by right wing, oil backed cretins and repeated ad nauseum by car guys that should know better, and have done so for the last decade. The fear they have over a different method of moving their metal boxes is palpable. But I call out idiocy and lies no matter what car we are talking about, and will even call out people who like a certain car if they are spouting BS about them (like saying "Skyline GTRs are the greatest cars because their supercharged 4 cyls make 700 hp stock! Let's see your dumbestic car do that!" and yes I've heard that before...).
Are EVs 100% perfect for 100% of the driving population? Of course not (at least not yet), but we don't expect ANY OTHER CAR to be that. Miatas can't tow full size race car trailers and F350 duallys don't autocross worth a damn. But they both have their place. Right now there are no inexpensive EV 2 seat convertible sports cars, so I have a gas one to scratch that itch.
A question was asked. I answered it. Below are the minimum requirements for me to purchase an electric vehicle. No one currently makes one. They are getting close but not yet. For me, it is strictly a financial decision. At present, the math doesn't quite line up and no one actually makes the vehicle.
Toyman01 + Sized and said:Work truck, extended cab, 8' bed, 300+ miles of range, under $40k, at least 2 model years old so I don't have to be a beta tester. At that point, the fuel savings should make the payment and I will buy a couple for the company as service trucks.
They aren't there yet, but they are working on it.
The problem I have with the EV advocates is they won't simply accept an answer unless it's their answer.
Some people will never buy one because they just don't want to. That is not acceptable.
Some people won't currently buy one because they won't make cross-country trips without stopping for charges. That's not acceptable.
Some people won't buy one yet because they don't want to pay employees $50/hr to stop and charge in the middle of the day. That's not acceptable.
While I can understand the frustration of saying the same thing over and over again, maybe try accepting people's answers to a question without sounding like a condescending evangelist or vegan. Also, some should try leaving their anger issues out of the discussion.
If you can't, well...I can always laugh about it.
And with that, I will mark this up to another EV thread that went off the rails.
I'll be keeping an eye on the Ford Lightning trucks. Hopefully, they will build some 2 door fleet vehicles soon.
Hope you guys have a great day.
Keith Tanner said:I think the reason EVs have interiors viewed as cheap is for a few reasons.
1. batteries are expensive. Getting less so, but they're still a significant percentage of the cost of the car. To keep the selling price of the car as low as possible, there may not be as much budget for interior trimmings.
2. There's less noise to control so less sound deadening is required. This may have the side effect of making the interior feel lightweight and tinny - the opposite of the "perceived quality" interior that VW used starting around 2000 that was all soft close and padded.
3. Not everyone buys into the minimalist design. This is mostly for Tesla, who pared the Model 3/Y down to the bare essentials like it was a design exercise. Maybe a little too far according to Germany. But if you judge an interior's quality by the amount of stuff packed into it (consciously or otherwise), then you definitely will react poorly to it. I think this might be generational to some extent and it would be interesting to hear a Japanese take on it. Personally, I know it's harder to do minimalist design than simply shotgunning buttons all over the place, and my M5's interior does not feel any more special than the Tesla's to me even though there's leather on the dashboard and one of them newfangled GPS units in the center stack and a phone button on the steering wheel.
Completely agree with you AND I have not been in a Tesla in a couple of years so maybe they have got better. The thing is for those that are purchasing a 100k plus car new fit finish and the feeling of quality is important. They don't care about the gee whizz stuff nearly as much. My Merc has very few gages and buttons compared to many other cars. My 2016 rav 4 has more buttons and gadgetry than my Merc and arguably the tech in it is better but it feels like a 35K car, not a 100k car. More buttons and gages do not make a car better (unless it is something you want). Look at Bentley. I was in my friend's GT the other day and the interior is very simple. If you are looking for technology and information it is just not there but in terms of quality fit finish and luxury, it is absolutely fantastic.
Then there is the other end of the 100K car buying crowd that a big part of their purchasing decision is based on being seen in the car. Tesla use to be a car to be seen in but the novelty has worn off. Another reason why putting out the model 3 was a really smart business decision made by testla.
Edit: Your reasoning about the interiors and battery costs is basically saying that they are cheap. On a 100k car, another 3-4K on the interior sound deadening and overall better inter build quality is not going to be the determining factor when selling a car in that price range. The Tesla model s could have been a world-class luxury car but Tesla had a different vision for the car. I am sure their market study proved this and I can not fault them as they sold a bunch of them. I think people expect a lot more from an EV that is at the higher end of the luxury car price range now. I think Tesla realizes this and does not want to compete in that market.
The $100k Tesla does have a different interior than the $45k Tesla does. I haven't spent much time in one but it's definitely aimed at a more traditional audience. Well, the first generation was. Not sure you can say that about the new one.
Automakers seem to be more willing to take risks with EV interiors. Just look at the i3. I think it's viewed as a license to do something new if we're getting rid of the whole gasoline thing. But there are lots of normal ones like the Bolt or VW.
I hope the fad of making it different because EV goes away and they get back to making good cars that happen to be EV. I am hoping that the EV F150 is the start of this.
Keith Tanner said:The $100k Tesla does have a different interior than the $45k Tesla does. I haven't spent much time in one but it's definitely aimed at a more traditional audience. Well, the first generation was. Not sure you can say that about the new one.
Automakers seem to be more willing to take risks with EV interiors. Just look at the i3. I think it's viewed as a license to do something new if we're getting rid of the whole gasoline thing. But there are lots of normal ones like the Bolt or VW.
I actually have not been in a 45k Tesla. I have only been in Model s cars. But again it was 2-3 years ago. It felt cheap to me.
When I think of EV acceleration "Always on the cam" comes to mind.
In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :
It's easier to not engage.
time will really tell how EV's are taken in the market.
Damn it,you guys are making me reconsider my lack of interest in an EV.
Point taken.
Keith Tanner said:
Automakers seem to be more willing to take risks with EV interiors. Just look at the i3.
I'd rather not, it looks like a deliberate attempt to make something as every-branch-on-the-ugly-tree, no-alibi ugly in the name of being different.
Every one I have seen was white, too, which makes all the weird black panels on the outside even more jarring.
But then, I also do see a few, so clearly either the aesthetic is working, or they don't care much.
I'm with the "when they start being cars that happen to be electric" camp. New problem: All of the "just cars" are turning towards the vehicle as smartphone design paradigm, too.
To be quite honest, the electric car thing just makes me sad. I realize that one day in the not so distant future there will no cars on the market that have any interest for me. I don't think I am alone in this sentiment.
Many "car guys" have a dream car that they want to buy brand new off the show room floor just once in their life. That dream car might have a turbo, a V8, a flat six, V10, or maybe a even V12 with a gated shifter. By the time many of us achieve that financial point, after years of working, saving, and investing; we realize that the dream vehicle will simply not exist at any price.
What many of you hear as "knuckle dragging idiocy" is really the anger and grief associated with mourning the death of a dream that they have held since they were 10 or 12 years old, maybe younger.
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