When does a dedicated track car just not make sense

Probably not the right forum for the question (too many enablers, and frankly my close circle of friends are even worse) :-)

I've been doing some automotive soul searching as of late, and one of the lingering questions is minimum usage.  Many of us have gone down the rabbit hole of buys car for dual purpose, then gets seats, then gets roll bar, strip the interior, no need for AC, should get stiffer suspension and coilovers, heck might as well not make it street legal, so pull the cats, emissions, insurance etc and end up with a car that is really only functional on track.  You end up with a fun car for the track, that sets 95% of the time.

Anyone have this debate with themselves?  Does it really make sense to own a vehicle that gets used 3-4 weekends a year?  Not to mention enclosed trailer storage costs (can't store it at my place).  I'm in a position where the money aspect of the decision isn't really that important, it's the principal behind it.  I'm not planning to make it full race car, and go to the track primarily to run some fun laps, and hang out with friends.  Not super competitive in that aspect of my life.

Do y'all have a minimum usage on a vehicle before it just doesn't make sense to own?  For 3/4 weekends, just go buy a fun dual purpose toy, and diligently try to avoid the same cycle of track upgrades again?  

Sounds like you new an SS 1LE and purchase track day insurance on the few occasions you do fee like doing a track day. 

Yes.

I don't have a ton of experience with the rabbit hole, but I have some. The epitome, to me, is a dedicated drag car like my father's Super Stock car. You spend $10K on a set of heads from a specific casting, and their ports have been replaced nearly entirely with brass. You replace the entire frame, but not specific parts of the suspension. You run open headers but have to run the carb style which GM put there. You plane the heads at an angle, making the deck and intake a one-off, because decking them is illegal, but resurfacing them is not, or some such balogna. Etc etc, you end up with an extremely specialized machine that still can't run with its peers (because you spent $10K on those heads, not $50K) and you might get one full minute of seat time in a weekend. You drive thousands of miles during the entire season chasing down a divisional championship and you spend hundredths of thousands on parts, fuel, tires, and towing, and your total seat time is like 10 minutes for the entire season. Instead you can stick a cam and exhaust in a 69 Camaro and drive it around the street and have way more fun. That's exactly the choice he made. The SS car is sitting in a trailer where it's been for a decade.

I think the main variables are:

- frequency of use

- storage space

- having a vehicle to tow a race car trailer

-intended use on track, and need for safety equipment

For your stated case (use 3-4 times a year, no space to store, etc.) just get a fun street car that can handle the track.  Accept that it's not wise to push more than 8/10ths on the track, and you might get away with not swapping brake pads or wheels/tires.  Accept that each track day might double in cost due to track day insurance, but it's still a cost saver when you're doing them that infrequently.

For my use case (track events monthly or more, own a pickup that can tow, space to store an enclosed trailer) a dedicated track car and trailer is a no-brainer decision.  The positive here is that well-prepped race cars in common classes and enclosed trailers in good shape really don't depreciate unless you crash them.

In my experience those are the two best options.  Trying to halfway-prepare a street car to be good/safe on track and still good/safe on street is an expensive and pointless endeavor.

tuna55 said:

Yes.

This makes my feelings hurt but it's so true.

I had a lot more "fun" with a street car but most of that fun was bordering on getting in some sort of trouble I'd rather avoid these days.

Frequency of events and storage space would be the two biggest factors for me. Having a car that you can do 3-4 track days, some autocross and take for joy rides makes a lot of sense.

As someone with two race cars, I can tell you having a race car is probably the dumbest thing ever as it makes zero sense other than to fulfill my addiction.

If I ever shed my addiction, er I mean love of racing, I'd get something fun to drive and sell all of the race related stuff and never look back. Note I would still run something cheap like a Miata or FRS. 

Making a car go faster doesn't make it better or more fun; yet few people understand this. I repeatedly tell new students that while mods may make the car faster it likely won't make driving it more fun.

If you shed the race car, you can afford to drive a much nicer dual purpose car. Unless your track days include some door-door racing, Track day performance is only relative to your last lap anyway.

I don't seem to have a minimum usage limit, or if I do I haven't hit it yet.

Great input from everyone so far, and I appreciate that the discussion has shied away from the cliche more cars is always better mantra.

I do own an '07 Tundra as a tow pig.  It serves that purpose well, and is at the bottom of the depreciation curve, if anything it's probably ticked back up a bit lately.  It's nice to have a truck for the mulch runs, or for whatever misc. craigslist purchase. I also have a 20' enclosed trailer that I bought cheap, and insulated, wired, AC, e-tracked, winched, etc.  Worth more than I have in it.  That costs about a grand a year in storage, and storage is an annoying 25 minute drive away.  Which makes using it a chore, so it sits other than those same 3/4 track weekends.

Most of my friends think I'm a cheap SOB (I prefer the term frugal), as I could reasonably afford about anything automotive I wanted.  But when I look at a $60k Tundra, I instinctively think that that $60k now, 5 years from now, is an entire year of early retirement dollars.  

I just finished a 2 year frame-off on a TR6 that serves as the sunny evening cruise vehicle.  I would not describe a TR6 as a performance orientated toy, but it's a nice 2 seater cruiser for those after work go for a quick drive with the wife trips.

Decisions, decisions......

I will say that having spent a couple decades running my dual-purpose Miata on the track while keeping it "streetable", a couple years ago I took the plunge and got a dedicated race car (E46 M3).  The difference is night and day.  In fact, I'm really not interested in driving street cars on the track any more.  I really like having that cage around me, the halo seat, etc -- all the stuff that isn't really practical to put into a dual-purpose car.  A dual-purpose car is "jack of all trades, master of none" and I have decided that I really like having something that's a master at doing one thing. (*)

You say money isn't the issue, but ultimately that's what it comes down to.  Is it worth X dollars to you to get that last notch of performance/competence/safety/etc when you're out on track?

Another option you haven't mentioned is arrive-and-drive rentals.  Depending on what you're looking to drive, that might be a good option for having that last ounce on an infrequent basis.

(*) I suspect the same thing is true of purpose-built race cars vs a production-based car.  That's a whole nother rabbit hole that I don't want to go down, which is why I haven't driven many purpose-built ones (a Spec Racer Ford once is about it).  Too much playing with that and I'll probably want a Formula car of some kind...

I'm trying to do more track events this year...I think what I'm going to end up learning is that my usual habit of one event per year makes me happier until I'm in a place where I can have a dedicated track car. Track insurance is a great idea until you have to pay for it multiple times in a year. And the more you look at it the more you realize how not great of a deal it is, particularly for things like track night events. If I had the storage space for a truck, trailer, and another car I'd probably be searching for a ~$10k track car. Since running my cayman WITH track insurance would end up costing me $10k if I needed to replace it anyway...might as well save that $250/event and the stress of worrying about wrecking a car I care about.

Of the money, space, and time you that you currently have, which way of using it will bring you the most total enjoyment?

Ultimately it's always about the money :-)  I was more referring to that paying for storage for a trailer that I use 3/4 times a year bothers me, it doesn't keep me from paying the mortgage or impact retirement planning. 

One plus of the track rat is definitely that I feel safer with a HANS.  I put a Reynard FF into a wall at Summit Point years ago (without a HANS) and promised myself I wouldn't go on track without one again, but I also know that I could with a hybrid device with stock belts.  In reality I'm probably safer in a more modern vehicle with stock seats than in my track rat with race seats and a bolt in roll bar and six points.

I'm inherently an 8/10 driver.  I know that, always have known that. I think all my driving instructors have spent more time telling me to get on the throttle sooner, brake later, use more track etc.  My driving style is too conservative to ever be competitive.  If I was to get a full-on race car, it would be something vintage, as my attitude definitely fits in with the vintage version of racing more than what I see when I go to the track with NASA.

wake74 said:

 

I'm inherently an 8/10 driver.  I know that, always have known that. I think all my driving instructors have spent more time telling me to get on the throttle sooner, brake later, use more track etc.  My driving style is too conservative to ever be competitive.  If I was to get a full-on race car, it would be something vintage, as my attitude definitely fits in with the vintage version of racing more than what I see when I go to the track with NASA.

 

That is where my track driving days ended. After spending a few laps with an instructor, he told me that my driving was fine as far as it went, but that my imagination was way to good to ever be a fast driver.  "No way to put disaster out of your mind should anything go wrong and you cant fix that".  I did a few after as a social thing, but yeah, that killed it.

Here's my 2c though I don't know how much help I'll be with 5 cars sitting in the driveway and only 3 drivers in the house - bottom line, if all you're going to do is 3-4 track events a year, I cannot imagine the "extra" car makes sense - especially when you start figuring ALL of the other costs involved.

When I say ALL I mean everything - insurance on the car if you still drive it on the street, insurance on the trailer/tow vehicle if you don't, maintenance on all of the above, etc., BUT most importantly the opportunity cost. 

I started down this insanity with an E36 M3 which I purchased with the intent to start in HPDE and build into a race car, and I did just that and eventually got my license and when W2W. I regret none of it, and did a ton of it myself, had the whole tow rig went from open to enclosed trailer, and the whole thing grew. Grew to the point that just getting myself out of the house and to the track was an exhausting and stressful ordeal, taking a lot of the fun out of racing and track days. 

2 year ago I made a spreadsheet - I put ALL of my costs on it including my time - time prepping for a race weekend, time picking up the trailer from its storage location and dropping it off after the weekend, time loading/unloading, time wrenching on the all of the things that broke after weekend - and I gave myself a value of $50/hr for all of it. Then I compared what one of the local race shops wanted to do it all for me and you know what? I either break even or "make money" with them doing it and eliminate 99% of the headaches. I sold my truck and trailer, gave them the car, and I show up and drive - it has been one of the best decisions I've ever made (in the context of the stupid decision to spend all of my money going racing). 

Here's the rub - there's an NB Miata now sitting in my driveway because I want to be at the track or doing something fun with a car at least once a month, I have a soon to be 16yo old son I want to bring into this insanity with some autocross and get him into track days, plus I want to go back to the "simplicity" of a track day without it costing me $$$ to have the team bring out the race car. I don't enjoy my daily driver Audi B8 S4 on the track, so I am trying desperately to create that dual purpose car that we can tool around town on the weekends, drive to/from the track, have fun with and bring home in one piece. The voices in my head tell me this all makes perfectly good sense, and I enjoy the tinkering, the lack of deadlines (if the car isn't "ready" it doesn't matter), building and prepping the car with my kid, etc. But I can also tell you I've already found my brain wandering to the hideaway hitch for the Miata, building a harbor freight tire/fuel/tool trailer to drag behind, and I know the rabbit hole is there waiting for me to drive down it. 

I remind my wife that the whole thing is if not cheaper than hookers and blow, at least more socially acceptable, I get to hang out with my teenage kid and my dad at the racetrack, and having a toy at home to wrench on and play with gives me something to look forward to on the really stressful days at the office. Those are the "costs" that can't be calculated that are invaluable IMHO. 

NOHOME said:

That is where my track driving days ended. After spending a few laps with an instructor, he told me that my driving was fine as far as it went, but that my imagination was way to good to ever be a fast driver.  "No way to put disaster out of your mind should anything go wrong and you cant fix that".  I did a few after as a social thing, but yeah, that killed it.

 

It's interesting.  I understand the physics of driving a car at speed, read lots of books, can comfortable talk vehicle dynamics, predictable on track, etc.  But an instructor once wrote in a review, that I need to drive with my butt more and with my head less.  Maybe it's the engineer in me.

In reply to wake74 :

If you own it cheap enough that selling won't make any sense. You can keep it forever. 
THAT's why a vintage car makes sense.  You won't be outclassed by newer faster cars and still can get  your speed fix. 
Besides the buy in can be very modest if you do your own work. 

dps214 said:

I'm trying to do more track events this year...I think what I'm going to end up learning is that my usual habit of one event per year makes me happier until I'm in a place where I can have a dedicated track car. Track insurance is a great idea until you have to pay for it multiple times in a year. And the more you look at it the more you realize how not great of a deal it is, particularly for things like track night events. If I had the storage space for a truck, trailer, and another car I'd probably be searching for a ~$10k track car. Since running my cayman WITH track insurance would end up costing me $10k if I needed to replace it anyway...might as well save that $250/event and the stress of worrying about wrecking a car I care about.

I have a flat engined car as well, although one where the street value is probably >50% less than yours and I came to the same conclusion. 

To answer the question, I'd take a look at my experience in trying to track my daily driver. 

My local region's SCCA advertised a track day out in the middle of the desert, about a 4 hour drive from my house. As I started getting all the logistics together about how much gas it would cost to get there, how much gas it would cost to get back, how much gas I'd spend on track, registration fees, and various other consumables required for human sustenance, it ended up costing me almost $1000 for the day. And I'd have to leave at 3:00AM to make the mandatory driver's meeting at 7:30AM. 

I do want to go to an HPDE at least once a year, but I'm more than happy going to an autocross test/tune day once a month, and hitting up my local(ish) go kart track's Time Attack Night where they let full size cars run their 3/4 mile track every few weeks. Consumables and registration fees amount to about $200 for either event. Time Attack Nights are a 1.5 hour drive at the worst and I can do it after I get out of work to make driver's meeting and tech at 5:50PM. Autocross is also a 1 hour drive, so I only need to leave at 6:00AM to make the driver's meeting at 7:30AM. Less rough on the tires as well.

So it seems like I'm making an argument for a dedicated track car. Yeah, get a dedicated track car. You'll probably end up running more than 3-4 events a year if you get a dedicated track car as well. The only thing that concerns me is that you don't have the space for it, and that I think is the biggest issue.

Clarifying point.  I already have a dedicated car, your basic track rat E36.  I bought it several years as a stock 328, but have slowly been going down the rabbit hole of upgrades, culminating in an S52 swap (and a very not successful clutch upgrade but thats another story).  That car normally lives in one spot in the garage, or could really go into the trailer off-site if necessary.  Car storage for what I have isn't a problem but adding a new car to the fleet with the expectation to park it inside would be a no-go without losing the E36.

Right now, I'm doing track weekends with NASA, but have also done weekends with THSCC and BMWCCA.  One plus of the trailer is that I sleep in the trailer at the track, and it's reasonably comfortable.  My wife / son have no interest, although if I'm VIR they will usually come up for a day during the weekend.  It's not a family hobby.

I keep all of my cars street registered ... even the dedicated racecar. That way, I can take it out for an early Sunday drive to Bear Mountain, meet my car guy friends for burgers, or drive it to the shop for service. I'll even drive it to work maybe 1-2x a year just for the heck of it.

Makes the car feel like less of a burden and more of a fun toy to have around. 

LanEvo said:

I keep all of my cars street registered ... even the dedicated racecar. That way, I can take it out for an early Sunday drive to Bear Mountain, meet my car guy friends for burgers, or drive it to the shop for service. I'll even drive it to work maybe 1-2x a year just for the heck of it.

Unfortunately this isn't really feasible in California due to smog rules.

LanEvo said:

I keep all of my cars street registered ... even the dedicated racecar. That way, I can take it out for an early Sunday drive to Bear Mountain, meet my car guy friends for burgers, or drive it to the shop for service. I'll even drive it to work maybe 1-2x a year just for the heck of it.

Makes the car feel like less of a burden and more of a fun toy to have around. 

Thought about that as well, but that ship has sailed at least in the current county.  I'd have to get a seriously look-the-other way inspector or the lack of emissions equipment, cats etc.  Although I'm quite sure the current tune would pass as it has all readiness monitors permanently set to pass.

For me, part of it is the practicality of having a second car mainly for track use that I can also drive on the street. My problem is that I'm kinda snookered if I tracked my DD and ended up reshaping it to the extent that I then can't drive it to meet with a client, because I can't really take the beater truck or the Maxton. Plus if the DD Alfa suddenly decided that it needs to Alfa, I could take the BRZ to work. Well, if I put it back together first...

That said, I'm starting to think about how much I want to get back into HPDE (or not for that matter) and if it wouldn't make sense to get a slightly used dual purpose car next year when the Alfa lease ends. Like a newer/nicer GT86 Hakone Edition or a slightly used Type R. At that point I'd probably also replace the truck with a larger SUV that can tow the amount I need, so I do have a presentable backup vehicle.

NOHOME said:

wake74 said:

 

I'm inherently an 8/10 driver.  I know that, always have known that. I think all my driving instructors have spent more time telling me to get on the throttle sooner, brake later, use more track etc.  My driving style is too conservative to ever be competitive.  If I was to get a full-on race car, it would be something vintage, as my attitude definitely fits in with the vintage version of racing more than what I see when I go to the track with NASA.

 

That is where my track driving days ended. After spending a few laps with an instructor, he told me that my driving was fine as far as it went, but that my imagination was way to good to ever be a fast driver.  "No way to put disaster out of your mind should anything go wrong and you cant fix that".  I did a few after as a social thing, but yeah, that killed it.

 

When I qualified to land a plane on an aircraft carrier my grades were barely average. We practiced in the Gulf of Mexico where the bigger waves didn't budge an aircraft carrier so things were pretty cut and dried.   
     Yet once out in the Pacific with their mountains of Green water over the bow. And we had to fly regardless of the weather suddenly I was the guy always catching the Number 2 wire centerline. Often in spite of the antics of the LSO.  
      My point is,  some people just like the pressure and excitement of driving on the absolute edge while others prefer a more conservative approach.  Neither are wrong. 

Don't know if this has been mentioned. If you use your daily as a track (road courses) car and you go off big. You may no longer have a daily.