When it comes down to SC400 or P71?

Hey all, I’m considering stepping up and getting a little bit nicer car for a daily driver. I’ve been driving junkers…well, pretty much all my life. Now I’m thinking of something around $3,000 that would get me to work reliably everyday, have some power, look nice, haul my kids (3+ seats), with 20+ mixed mpg. And I’d like it to be easy to maintain in my gravel drive ;). This will be a “twist the key and drive” type appliance for me. I’ve got plenty of cars to work on…I’m thinking about getting one that I don’t have to work on. And I want it to be FUN to drive

The two vehicles on my list today are a Lexus SC400 and an 01+ P71 Crown Victoria. Rear drive and V8 power are at the top of my list of givens in the car selection process. The perfect trifecta would include a standard transmission…but two out of three ain’t bad, I guess. Neither of the cars in question were available with a standard transmission from the factory (and I won’t be converting one) so they’re on a level playing field in that respect, as far as I’m concerned.

Price. There aren’t any SC400s for sale in my area. I’d probably have to travel a bit to find a good one at deal prices. I’m not sure I could find a nice one at the $3,000 price point (it seems like early 90’s ones are typically closer to $4K...but I’m a deal finder). P71s…I’ve seen the dealers of these and my price bracket seems realistic for them. I’m curious where the private party sales happen (like P71 specific web forum classifieds)? CVN doesn’t seem to have a classified section.

Reliability. It seems the P71s have a good reputation. Maybe some timing chain tensioner issues and the like. Any others? How about the SC400? I don’t know much about them at all.

Power. I think either will be satisfactory to me. How do they compare in seat-of-the-pants feel? Horsepower to weight ratios and such?

Looks. I’m single and a father of two daughters. I suppose I’ll give a shot at good first impressions. Frankly, driving a junky car is a very good screening device (as in, if a woman is not interested in me because of my car…I’m relieved we got that out of the way up front). However, first impressions are a trick and I probably give the automotive first impression of bum. The SC400 runs away with this one. Though a one-color P71 won’t be a pheromone, it’s also not birth control (relative to my current transportation).

Fuel economy. I drive like I stole it about 50% of the time. Which is going to be least worst?

Maintainance. It seems like the P71 would have a slight edge in the maintainability category. Can anyone comment on either of the cars as far as maintainability goes? I know P71s were designed for severe service and fleet maintenance. Parts prices should be silly-cheap. I don’t know much about SC400s. Well…they’re Toyotas and that, in itself, is a huge plus in my opinion. How are parts prices and availability? Can I walk into O’reilly and buy typical maintenance parts? (I assume so…)

Fun to drive. I'm pretty sure the SC400 would clean up in this category. But...how unfun is a P71? I slalomed a rental crown vic for fun at R.A. back in '02 and laughed really hard...it was fun. It seems they might handle better than a car that large should...right?

I have a truck for when I need a truck (though a P71 would probably be more competent and definitely more comfortable car-hauler. I do like its “rolling lounge” interior space and towing capacity, and may find it very handy.

So…I’m just throwing out yet another “what car” thread for us all to occupy ourselves with by discussing during these cold winter months when it’s too nasty to work on cars…

Thanks! Clem

The SC400 will destroy the P71 in ride comfort and fun-to-drive, and lexuses pretty much don't break. It'll also have WAY more front seat room and a much nicer interior.

My wife's RX300 has 191k on it now. Aside from doing a trans when I bought it you'd never know it wasn't brand new.

As long as the electronics are all working in the SC400, they're pretty damn reliable. I rode in one a month or so ago that had just under 250k on it, and it drove great and still had plenty of power.

SC400 is my vote. 1uzfe FTW

We have a LS400. 1uzfe rocks.

I dont know if its like that where you live, but SC400s are really ghetto here, so i would be concerned about extra law enforcement attention. From what I have heard about P71s, its much the opposite.

I think I'd rather have the SC300 since it's another proven engine that was available with a 5-speed manual trans in the SC, plus it may be a little easier to work on because of being narrower than the V8.

Have fun finding one though... The other nice thing about these cars is, I believe they share some suspension bits with the Supra, so aftermarket improvement parts shouldn't be too hard to find.

The only reason I'd go P71 over this is if you had to have 4 doors or thought you would want to do some towing with the car.

Dont drive a SC400. You wont be able to get that silky smooth V8 out of your system for years. My dad had a Tundra with the truck version and even that was way too smooth and revvy. I cant comment on the 4.6 however, but the 5.4 in the Ford trucks are nice but dont really strike me the same way as the toyota 8 cylinder.

pres589 wrote: I think I'd rather have the SC300 since it's another proven engine that was available with a 5-speed manual trans in the SC, plus it may be a little easier to work on because of being narrower than the V8. Have fun finding one though... The other nice thing about these cars is, I believe they share some suspension bits with the Supra, so aftermarket improvement parts shouldn't be too hard to find.

The SC300's engine is the 2JZ-GE I-6, which is the N/A version of the Supra Mk.IV's 2JZ-GTE. If you're looking to make stupid amounts of horsepower, the 2JZ-GTE swap is easy to do, but pricey.

I think I've seen the 1UZ-FE mated to a manual transmission before, but from what I can't remember. Finding a manual SC300 is difficult, but they do exist.

Plenty of suspension bits are available, mostly from the usual (and expensive) Japanese tuning suspects, but Koni makes struts and Eibach makes springs, too.

Do you mean the LS400? If not you're comparing a sporty coupe with a sedan so it might just come down to what type of car you would rather drive. SC400s don't have the roomiest back seats iirc. If you want a sedan $3k will get you a near mint Volvo 740 turbo or one with all the mods done and it could be had with a manual trans.

I would love an LS400 or SC300 over a P71

Towing capacity for a SC400 is somewhere in the 2000-2500lb range and it does it easily. On an SC-the door panels break off, the window mechanism breaks, ALL the bushings/mounts go bad, the dash LEDs get flaky, and the ball joints (non replaceable no less) die.

With all those bad things said, there is great forum support. Dont let the door panel mounts get too loose and your panels are safe. There is a great variance in price for window mechanisms, I paid $90 instead of $125+ for mine because I used a forum recommended dealer. The bushings can be replaced with poly from TM engineering with little sacrifice in ride. You can DIY the LED replacement without much issue or pay a guy on the forums a few bucks to get it done. TM engineering also sells lower control arms with ball joint for $125 a side which is drastically lower than dealer price.

They drive really well and pretty much get the same mileage no matter how you drive. I putted around like I didn't have a care in the world and gained 1mpg, not worth it. They are slightly underpowered if you are used to anything really fast, but compared to your average car they feel quick. Leave the shifter in sport mode and they are much more fun. I think I pulled a 15.1 1/4 mile in mine with over 200,000 miles on the clock. I think they are one of the best looking cars ever made. You may have slightly less interior/suspension issues with a P71, but it won't be the same driving experience and definitely wont attract as many women.

When I read SC400 coupe vs. P71 sedan, I (like others) think of LS400.
When I think LS400 I think Infiniti Q45 as being a better value.

inre: jrw1621's mention of the Q45, I ran this little search;

http://craiglook.com/all.html?q=infiniti+q45&g=1234&l=3456&o=1

Either there are a number of scams going on here or these things are stupidly cheap. I suddenly just lost all interest I ever had in a P71. I know these things are complex cars and probably not a party to service but come on.

Early (to 93?) Qs had a problem eating timing components iirc.

RexSeven wrote:

pres589 wrote: I think I'd rather have the SC300 since it's another proven engine that was available with a 5-speed manual trans in the SC, plus it may be a little easier to work on because of being narrower than the V8. Have fun finding one though... The other nice thing about these cars is, I believe they share some suspension bits with the Supra, so aftermarket improvement parts shouldn't be too hard to find.

The SC300's engine is the 2JZ-GE I-6, which is the N/A version of the Supra Mk.IV's 2JZ-GTE. If you're looking to make stupid amounts of horsepower, the 2JZ-GTE swap is easy to do, but pricey. I think I've seen the 1UZ-FE mated to a manual transmission before, but from what I can't remember. Finding a manual SC300 is difficult, but they do exist. Plenty of suspension bits are available, mostly from the usual (and expensive) Japanese tuning suspects, but Koni makes struts and Eibach makes springs, too.

The SC300/400 is actually on the Supra chassis, so a LOT of things swap over, including the MKiv seats.

If you want to make stupid power, you don't need swaps. Both the n/a 2jzge and the 1uzfe are built like brick E36 M3houses. Don't even bother thinking about building the motor unless you're looking for 700+whp.

RexSeven wrote:

pres589 wrote: I think I'd rather have the SC300 since it's another proven engine that was available with a 5-speed manual trans in the SC, plus it may be a little easier to work on because of being narrower than the V8. Have fun finding one though... The other nice thing about these cars is, I believe they share some suspension bits with the Supra, so aftermarket improvement parts shouldn't be too hard to find.

The SC300's engine is the 2JZ-GE I-6, which is the N/A version of the Supra Mk.IV's 2JZ-GTE. If you're looking to make stupid amounts of horsepower, the 2JZ-GTE swap is easy to do, but pricey. I think I've seen the 1UZ-FE mated to a manual transmission before, but from what I can't remember. Finding a manual SC300 is difficult, but they do exist. Plenty of suspension bits are available, mostly from the usual (and expensive) Japanese tuning suspects, but Koni makes struts and Eibach makes springs, too.

The SC300/400 is actually on the Supra chassis, so a LOT of things swap over, including the MKiv seats.

If you want to make stupid power, you don't need swaps. Both the n/a 2jzge and the 1uzfe are built like brick E36 M3houses. Don't even bother thinking about building the motor unless you're looking for 700+whp.

I will second the Q45. Prices are rediculous, they drive nicely, have lot's of power. They have some issues, I'm sure, but for the money, come on. Good looking cars, too.

Not sure why but I think I have always heard that you want to own a Q45 with a grill. In the years before '94 they had a chrome-less front ends. Could be early engine issues.

From what I understand, they really can be had that cheap.
I often think, "who do you really know that goes looking for a Q45?" I just think they are largely over looked. I bet the sellers end up sitting on them for quite some time. To me, this would signal that asking prices are inflated but that negotiation room is significant. I bet you can shop $7k asking prices and see $4k selling prices.
Expect that Infinitis will mostly be available in large cities or populous areas. Even in their heyday (which is not now) Infiniti only put dealerships in major metropolitans.
I am a fan of the 1997.5 and newer looks.

jrw1621: in my former life as a sales slob at a few different Firestone stores, I got to sit in a number of cars and the 1997.5 (I figured it was just 1998) and up Q's were about the nicest car we ever saw in the shop as far as an interior. I also really like the styling. Beat any Cadillac from the same time period, and seemed more interesting than the Lexus LS cars.

Go drive a P71 before you make a decision. After the block-long burnout go to the parts store and realize that all of the parts on the thing are 1/2 of the Yota easily. Then call your insurance company and find out that the Crown Vic/P71 has the lowest rate, period. Then laugh all the way to the bank as you pick up a clean, single-color, no holes 01-02 for under $2K. Then when you're buying mods to make it faster or make the interior more comfy (whoever said the Yota had more front seat room is on crack) you can tow the broken down complex Yota off of the side of the road and store a 302/T5 in the trunk to swap into the thing all while your daughters lounge in the massive back seat area (comfortably in their carseats if they're still young) and you can rest easy knowing the P71 has a 5-Star crash rating all the way around.

While the P71 is one of the better big archaic american ox-cart sedans, it's not even on the same planet as the SC when it comes to dynamics or ride quality. The interior on the P71 sucks, period. There is NO comparison. Yes, the P71 is a great value, but given the choice between ford or lexus I'll spend the extra money every time.

P71 wrote: Go drive a P71 before you make a decision. After the block-long burnout go to the parts store and realize that all of the parts on the thing are 1/2 of the Yota easily. Then call your insurance company and find out that the Crown Vic/P71 has the lowest rate, period. Then laugh all the way to the bank as you pick up a clean, single-color, no holes 01-02 for under $2K. Then when you're buying mods to make it faster or make the interior more comfy (whoever said the Yota had more front seat room is on crack) you can tow the broken down complex Yota off of the side of the road and store a 302/T5 in the trunk to swap into the thing all while your daughters lounge in the massive back seat area (comfortably in their carseats if they're still young) and you can rest easy knowing the P71 has a 5-Star crash rating all the way around.

When was the last time you saw a broken down SC by the side of the road? In terms of things that make you go places, they're on the same level of bulletproofness as the P71.

Look, they're both great. But i don't think they should be compared, they aren' in the same league. If you've not got much money and NEED 4 doors, get the P71.

If you've got the extra scratch, then grab an SC.

We all realize that YOU prefer the P71. But that doesn't mean that the SC is an unreliable, cramped car with crazy expensive parts and a poor crash rating. It's none of those things.

I'll address some of the points/questions brought up so far (without quoting direclty):

As far as the SC300 with the standard transmission, I'm pretty sure I won't be finding one of those anytime soon, so I just figure go with the V8. If a 5 speed SC300 came along for a reasonable price though, I would definitely consider it.

I don't need the towing capacity or the back doors. I'd likely use both features if I had them...but I'll pretty much always have a truck.

I also don't plan to modify it. If it needs bushings, I'd probably think about going with poly just because it makes sense...but this will be a daily driver. Like I said, I've got no shortage of cars to work on...I want a car that is fun in stock form...and reliable.

Yes...I am comparing a sporty coupe to a sedan. Yes, I'm talking about the SC400. I just plain don't like the looks of the LS400 (and strangely DO like the looks of a P71). Everyone here talks up the P71 like it might be an entertaining daily driver. I prefer 2 door vehicles almost always. But as you can see, there are several criteria on my list.

I guess what it comes down to with the P71 is that it is about the ONLY 4 door sedan that I'd be WILLING to drive that is in that price range...due to a combination of factors.

I'm not too concerned about backseat size. I'll sacrafice that in the name of fun driving. My kids can deal (they enjoy spirited driving).

Mr. Joshua...thanks for all that info! I've never even been up close to an SC400, so I don't know anything about them. Can you tell me what the good forums are?

Around here, there aren't very many Lexus SCs. They're definitely not considered "ghetto" or whatever. If anything is, it's a 4 door sedan like a crown vic or caprice or...

I know it sounds whacky comparing these two cars...that's why I posted it on GRM, duh!

Surely my criteria demonstrate why these two cars would be in the running.

Thanks for the discussion on SC400s and P71s all!

Clem

Rza wrote: Dont drive a SC400. You wont be able to get that silky smooth V8 out of your system for years. My dad had a Tundra with the truck version and even that was way too smooth and revvy. I cant comment on the 4.6 however, but the 5.4 in the Ford trucks are nice but dont really strike me the same way as the toyota 8 cylinder.

When My dad rented an early mod-motor P-car he said it was smooth as silk next to our 302 powered Gran Marquise

You have two daughters, Nothing scares away potential boy friends like a cop car. Just sayin'.