I would get the best clean title FRS that you can afford. I see plenty of them at the track without issue. You won't be doing many track days anyway while in college. I see various clean titled cars around $10k on marketplace near me.
Any 30 year old e36 is going to be far worse than a much newer toyobaru.
In reply to Evanuel9 :
The 318ti made a terrific daily: the right size, the right everything.
I had a seven-year-old Accord in college–yes, with a manual box. To be honest, it was perfect.
Also another question on the FR-S - what is the failure point. If we accept the baseline idea that track use will likely blow the engine (which I haven't necessarily accepted yet), what goes wrong to cause it to blow? Rods don't just knock or leave the block without loss of oil pressure so what causes that loss of oil pressure? Is it any parts that can be fixed like the pickup or baffles? Is it an inherent design flow in the oil passages and crankshaft? Is it a pump issue? There must be some specific failure point if engines blowing is such a repeatable problem.
David S. Wallens said:In reply to Evanuel9 :
The 318ti made a terrific daily: the right size, the right everything.
I had a seven-year-old Accord in college–yes, with a manual box. To be honest, it was perfect.
The biggest problem with the 318ti is the fact the newest one out there is now 26 years old. I don't care how nice it is, it's an almost 30 year old car and 30 year old cars need things that 5-10 year old cars don't.
EDIT: Just realized that hte 318ti and the accent/rio/veloster 1.6 GDI make the same power. 138hp at the crank when new.
DD a 30 year old car for a lot of us with experience at fixing things on the fly as needed isn't that big a deal. But when you're fresh, and this is all you got it's not a great way to go IMO. YMMW and all that.
Track day costs depend on where you're going. Let me give you some examples, on the lower end of the scale I can do a track night at Shannonville for around $45, on the upper end I can pay around $400 for a full day on the Mosport ("CTMP") GP circuit, which is in the same ballpark as other nice big tracks like AMP. Middle-of-the-road options might be places like the FIRM or Mosport DDT which are around $250 for a full day. And then you'll spend a lot on gas, I can go through more than a tank on a full track day even if the track is 30mins from home.
Every track day isn't flipping a coin with your engine, if you have a good reliable engine like most sporty Japanese I4s you basically never have to worry about the engine suddenly lunching itself.
The cause of failure on the FA20 is the bottom end, it has very small main & rod bearings that are heavily loaded and a non-priority-mains oiling system, plus it comes with oil cavitation/starvation and oil overheating issues which are totally capable of wrecking the engine in stock form. With the oil supply and cooling issues addressed, they should have a normal lifetime but there's no guarantee...it's definitely a fragile engine.
Edit: Other factors to consider are the inherent jiggliness of the boxer engine (makes it easier for bottom-end tolerances to change while the engine's running) and the fact that this engine is actually being pushed pretty hard for its size, over 100HP/L to the crank in stock form. The later FA24 is basically just an FA20 with a +400CC overbore and a reworked oil pickup intended to address the oil cavitation issues. Unfortunately that redesign did nothing at best to address the starvation issues, and then they closed up the pan with too much silicone which causes a whole new problem...
Evanuel9 said:Also another question on the FR-S - what is the failure point. If we accept the baseline idea that track use will likely blow the engine (which I haven't necessarily accepted yet), what goes wrong to cause it to blow? Rods don't just knock or leave the block without loss of oil pressure so what causes that loss of oil pressure? Is it any parts that can be fixed like the pickup or baffles? Is it an inherent design flow in the oil passages and crankshaft? Is it a pump issue? There must be some specific failure point if engines blowing is such a repeatable problem.
If I remember correctly, the FA oiling system is completely different than the older EJ series engines. Where the EJ is more traditional where it prioritizes the mains/rods before feeding the heads, it's an all everywhere do it system. There's no priority on the bottom (center?) end to keep the bearing happy.
Add that to typical Subaru QC and it's a mess waiting to happen. There's a reason why all modern engines that last a long time prioritize oiling the bottom end first.
In reply to Evanuel9 :
It's an E90, not the coupe. My buddy had an E92 and those parts are much harder to get. There are tons of these (mainly auto 328 ix) in junkyards if you need parts. The engine is great, most expensive part i would worry about if you can't do it on your own is the clutch/flexible disk when that happens. This clutch has plenty of life, but if you plan on tracking, doing burnouts, or aren't familiar with how to drive stick you may wear it out in the next year or 2.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eervwz8LMpZDuo-bHvvazrUfdwoh-OYmE_2hnhqzEok/edit?usp=sharing
Check out the info. I hunted down and called the shops that had worked on it before I bought it to see what had been done.
Your budget is not enough to gamble on an old/rebuilt sports car and expect any daily driving/reliability. You will end up walking. Get yourself a newish manual fwd 4cyl Honda/toyota/kia. You can have a blast with them and they'll keep going.
I am sad that nobody else has noticed the polka dotted headliner on the good 318ti.
A high ratio welded diff in a 318ti means drifting. Drifting = bad for the next owner. A 3.73 ratio diff suggests 4500-5000 rpm at 70mph. Considering that traffic moves at 80mph where I am from, that is high for me.
My 318ti is the only car I have ever spun on a dry road while driving under the speed limit. Make sure yours has all the airbags. Suspension and tire condition is more important than in other cars I have driven. Stability control was a rare option on this model.
A 318i and 318ti are the same from the B-pillars forward. Suspension, driving position, engine, steering, etc. There are some minor differences in the dash and door design. Both cars have the same wheelbase. The difference in size is only in the rear overhang. The torque of the 6 cylinder beats any feel difference from the lighter frontend on the 4 cylinders.
For your price range, do your homework and buy the best condition car you can for the budget. Each car has an issue or two you need to know about before you buy. If you like the car, the price is good, and you have budget for known issues, buy it. There are only a few cars in budget that are so bad that I would give you a hard no, such as 2007-2010 Mini Cooper S.
If you want some more bad advice from this forum, I am pretty sure you could fix an Rx8 and a backup engine with shop install in your budget. You can tell your parents it is a sedan. If you want some good advice, I echo the Mazda 3 that has been recommended multiple times.
ojannen said:I am sad that nobody else has noticed the polka dotted headliner on the good 318ti.
I did, assumed it was custom, was that a rare factory option?
In reply to GameboyRMH :
No but it really ties the room together.
In reply to ojannen :
Bravo!
Evanuel9 said:Fits have a whole racing series - how bad is the rollover risk really?
On track, probably not that bad, as long as your line is 100% clean at all times. In a slalom? I wouldn't want to be near the car.
If you aren't familiar with SSF, read up on it. Cars with an SSF of <1.30 are not permitted to compete in autocross. If SSF is not published, track width vs. vehicle height is used. 1G fits are better than Fiestas but not by much. I think my general thought is, if its riiight around 1.30, its probably just a matter of catching the right transition, bump, curb, etc. before it goes over. Or putting on next year's grippier tires.
I don't see a number for Mazda2, but I don't know why its better. Possibly because the tires are so much worse? Could also be the difference in weight up top vs. the Fiesta. Either way, I would still consider it borderline.
Here are some reference points:
Fiat 500 1.28
Fiesta Sedan 1.29
Fit 1st gen 1.32
Fit 2nd gen 1.35
Kia Rio 1.37
Mazda 3 1.43
Yaris 4 door 1.33
Yaris hatch 1.30
RX8 1.59
350Z 1.57
I'll just throw it out there that I probably wouldn't daily drive my e36 coupe if I didn't work full time at an auto parts place. And I luckily have something else I can drive. Being in Canada parts are available but not super quickly.
Evanuel9 said:I hated the base 8th gen civic I drove. It had all of the slowness of something like the EK civic or Honda fit with none of the sharpness. Sis arnt bad.
Looking down your list, the 8th gen civic si is what I would go with. At your budget you're looking at very high mile cars, and IME Honda drivetrains survive those miles significantly better than the BMWs or VWs on your list.
So Fit vs Civic Si -- I'd go for the Si, mainly because it's got the K motor. IMHO the Si also wins out in the looks department (it's not amazing, but the Fit is just ugly to me). Obviously that's an individual opinion though. :)
I would vote 8th Gen Si sedan for sure. Its too bad every one I have seen for sale in OPs price range is missing paint, has had a E36 M3ty repaint, has been in an accident, or suffered some serious neglect. That said, ugly paint doesn't make it slow or unreliable...
In reply to amg_rx7 (Forum Supporter) :
See I really really want to and was certain that it was the answer until I made this thread. But now I'm afraid that in the next 6 months before college, when I do hit the track, I will be flipping a coin on blowing an engine. And hopefully I get lucky and don't, but I'm afraid if I do
In reply to David S. Wallens :
Thanks!!!
In reply to bobzilla :
And if I'm ok with the hassles of an older car? I like doing work and having a bit of a project.
Bear with me now but growing up I always saw the idea of a first car as being a E36 M3box 90s car. Now granted I'm a car guy who's a bit stuck in the past but I don't feel that afraid of a 90s car....I feel like the internet has made repairs much easier.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Thank you. I guess the issue is with track day costs, how cheap do I need to go or how much will I actually track it. I should probably call autobahn cc and get their track day costs so I can't factor it in.
By the coin flip, I meant specific for the fa20 engine in the toyobaru. A fit or civic isn't going to toss rods on a track day, or even have much chance of it. An frs will either toss rods or not on the first track day, without much ability to choose which way it goes (the so-called trial by fire of the survivability mods). That seems to be the consensus. And then each subsequent track day will be similar risk on the fa20
I found a great thread by element tuning on the 86 forums pointing out the oiling design issues, and pressure issues. But it seems like he figured it out. I wonder if I should contact him and see if it is fixable on a lower budget. He modified the oil pump to get more pressure.
And if I'm ok with the hassles of an older car?
I love the idea of a Saturn (as long as a manual SL2 or SC2 and you check the oil!) but they are pretty hard to find in junkyards here in the south. 10 years ago when I would go and look for parts, there were tons of them, but even at that point the common failure points like the emergency, brake handle, ratchet or gone from most of them. It's not about doing the work, it's about finding the parts cheaply.
the 2000-2010s are where it's at. Make sure you get manual, traction control you can really turn off, and nothing with super integrated infotainment and you will be happy.
In reply to bobzilla :
That seems to be accurate according to a breakdown by a Subaru tuner I found. Also for the center bearing there's one oil passage to feed two bearings. And a low pressure oil pump
In reply to bbbbRASS :
Thank you! I've got no fear of doing my own work, just parts cost. Were you able to find most of the stuff you've needed for cheap?
I will check theough the drive.
In reply to Evanuel9 :
The drive lists all my parts costs. I don't buy the bottom barrel "big river woman" or "Advanced Zone" parts so it can be done cheaper, but I found the E90 much cheaper than the E46 I had before it. A bit less driver focused and heavier, but more comfortable and reliable. Some of that is just age and care though.
if you want to maximize time on track, get something Japanese and cheap. It won't cost much to run, and you won't be getting close to the limits of the car (even and econobox) until after several years of driving. This about smaller tires, better MPG, cheaper brakes.
something like BMW is good for the more performance specific parts and knowledge available, the nicer interior experience, and the guilty joy of the drivetrain. Ultimately your cheapest option is the one that has been taken care of the best, and you can work on the easiest.
In reply to ojannen :
I assumed, like others, that it was custom by the owner. It's interesting - not my cuppa tea.
The reddish purplish one was built for autocross so maybe that's why the diff- and not drifting? I'm willing to deal with some drone at high rpms.
Is the better 318i suspension worth the increased size (and weight) over the 318ti. I prefer the looks and hatchback style of the 318ti but I'd be willing to sacrifice it if the rear suspension is that much better. Is the 6 cylinder really worth the reliability headaches, weight over the 318i.
Haha I'm actually terrified of the rx8. Reliability, gas mileage etc on that car are horrific. And it's ugly to boot.
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