Which rallycross tires for a muddy venue?

I am taking a serious look at a couple of regional rallycross events this year.  I am leaning towards the Sediv challenge in Hunstville, AL and Rallycross Nationals in Iowa.  I am debating if I can take enough time off of work to do the Great Lakes Challenge in Ohio.

I currently have 205 section Zestino tires with about 200 runs on them.  They work ok at the local events which are fairly high grip.

I want to downgrade to a 185 section tire and sharper tread blocks would be nice.  If I was just buying for local events, I would get a soft compound DMack or Maxxis. 

For the regional events that sub sand for mud, how do I pick tires?  How would the choice change if I was bringing 1 set of tires vs 2 sets?  I am not expecting to win anything but it would be great if I could be in the hunt for the last trophy spot.  I have heard good things about the Indysport SG and BR tires but I have never driven on them.

For mud, I'd either go with a rally tire or snow tire with the tread opened up enough to make sure they don't pack up and become slicks.  One guy locally has done very well in a Forrester on muddy courses running a set of retreads that look a lot like super swampers.  

As someone who's dealt with the serious mud at both Topeka and Indianola, I'd get IndySport BRs as long as you're in prepared and they fit. If your feet sink into the ground or you're tossing dirt and grass, BRs are the correct choice.

Once things tack up, the IndySport SGs are faster and continued use of BRs as the course dries may lead to you losing some of your tread blocks. A good rule of thumb for switching is when you stop seeing dirt spray, it's time.

If the ground is rock hard or you start seeing dust, it's time to go to a dry tire. I haven't actually used the new Hoosiers yet but hear wonderful things. The General Arctic Altimax is my go-to recommendation for dry rallycross.

I've seen some seriously exotic mud tires at Nats (Brienne Corn had some sweet ones!) but don't know the market well enough to advise. I also don't have advice for sand.

In reply to Kylini :

Thanks for the information.  I should have mentioned I am in PR and the standard 15" tires all fit my car.

Locally, the BRs don't last very long because our wet courses are still 50% dry.  If I bring a set of BRs and and one other set of tires, what do I go with?  Do I compromise with the SG and slower speeds in the dry or a gravel tire and a tough choice in drying conditions?  I am attempting to avoid three sets of tires for money and space reasons.

That’s a tough question, since the last three Nats that I remember got really muddy!

Since your sites tend to be kinda dry I’d get SGs and something for more dry events. They won’t be as fast as BRs if it’s really bad but they’re still a great tire. They’re also easier to fit under fenders. 

Long term, I will say that full wet tires do last a while if you treat them well. You’ll just have a garage full of 16 tires. 

In reply to ojannen :

If you want to be on the podium at Nationals, it's not really possible on one set of tires. Kylini, myself, and many other National champions have at least 4 sets of tires, if not more. I think I'm at 8 right now. 

The BR can pretty much be considered a spec tire for mud. The SG, cut rally tires, etc are all going to be slower in complete mud. However, as you identified, they are pretty much worthless on any sort of dry conditions, except for deep sand.

The SG does surprisingly well in dry conditions, due to the softness of it's tread compound. They are going to wear very fast though. If the surface is hard pack clay, they are going to be slower than some soft gravels and high surface area snows.

For my locals (Iowa) wanting to do a two tire set up, I typically recommend a set of SG and set of General Altimax Arctic, as this will cover you well in all but complete mud. We do race year round, so the set of snows is critical. With you being in Florida, you could potentially go with a set of soft/medium gravels instead of the snows.

If you're going to a three tire set up, I'd add the BR.

I have nothing good to say about Maxxis rally tires for rallycross. We tried all three compounds back when Maxxis had contingency and thought they all sucked. I'd consider the retread rally tires (Indysport, MaxSport) as you get similar tread designs and compound as the true rally tires but drop a ton a weight. The decrease in rotating and unsprung mass is definitely a good thing for rallycross.

In reply to FooBag :

Thanks for the information.  I noticed you and Kylini both suggest winter tires over gravel tires.  Is it only due to weight or is it because you run at below-freezing temperatures?  I have an old set of Firestone Winterforces that I haven't really used since I got gravel tires.  I just assumed the gravel tires were better but I haven't gone back and forth to see.

In the Midwest, we have a lot of clay that might as well be concrete when dry. We will literally leave rubber tracks on the ground and have tire squeal.

On a hard pack surface like that, you typically only have a small amount of loose material to move before you're down to a surface that provides traction. At that point, additional tire surface area in contact with the ground becomes useful/faster. Certain snow tire tread designs work perfectly in these conditions, as you are maximizing surface area, but still have enough voids to handle the loose. I would not count the Winterforce in this category, but the Generals and a few others do. The rally tire tread designs are made for significant amounts of loose material and can be slower on a hard pack surface. You do also have a weight bonus over rally tires.

Have you read my article about snow tire selection for rallycross? There's some ideas in there worth considering and that can be extrapolated to rally tires.

EDIT: Basically saying what others already said. Oh well....

Remember, nationals are all about who has the cash to bring a crapload of different tires and constantly change them for conditions. You're unlikely to show up with ONE or TWO sets and have "the right tire" to win (working with the assumption that you're a fast enough driver to win, regardless).

Vaughn, Brienne, etc....they roll deep with tires - and not just off-the-shelf stuff, also with some fairly bespoke/hard-to-get stuff (go find the insane new mud tires Vaughn recently picked up from someplace in Europe....they cost as much as all my stage rally tires combined). You're not going to out-tire them, so I wouldn't even bother. Brienne has her own rallycross facility - think she isn't testing dozens of tires and knows exactly which one is superior in exactly what condition?

I'd just take whatever you'd use locally and run them, and let the chips fall where they may. Unless of course you have a lot of cash to throw around, in which case throw it around :D Maybe you'll get lucky and it will actually be dry at nats for once. 

The Indysport BRs seem to be the mud choice for the handful of locals that carry a large tire selection to events. I haven't used them myself. 

I usually run whatever tires I used at the previous stage rally (usually Dmacks), and if it's soft I'll throw some Maxsport grass tires on the rear (since I'm RWD). That's the poor-man's way. 

--

Side note: If you want to run against one of the best PR drivers (Shawn Roberts) or some of the best MR drivers on this side of the country, we have a 2-day event in W.Va. at the end of June at (IMO) one of the best venues east of the Rockies.. Should be 25+ RWD cars there, and you'll end up with probably 20-25 total runs over 60 seconds. Just throwing you an alternate invite in case you're interested. I'm pretty sure we have more BMWs running here than anywhere else in the country (a few e36s, a dozen+ e30s, occasionally a z3 coupe.....) so you could see how you do against comparable cars as well. 

Other side note - a lot of the budget-minded stage guys are switching to Federal rally tires (available here in the US for pretty inexpensive price compared with other "true" rally tires). The Federals are supposedly a bit softer sidewalls than most rally gravels and have a soft-ish compound that holds up well to heat. They've gotten good reviews from those who have them (I am about to order some for stage).  Of course, these are gravels, so still not very good in mud. Just telling you since it seems nobody knows about them yet. 

I ran in the DC region a few summers ago at the two day events at Frostburg and the Rally Farm.  Shawn destroyed me both times.  I have also seen Bee a few more times since then as he drives all over the country to rallycross.  I work as a musician on the weekends and late June into early July is pretty busy for me.  That event would be on my mind but I am already booked.

I am not really looking to win at nationals.  I can occasionally hang with the fast guys for a run or two but I am not consistent enough to do it over two days of runs.  Looking at results from the last few years, the last trophy spot in PR averaged 1.5 to 3 seconds a lap slower than the winner.  That might be more my speed.

I like the idea of going to a narrower and lighter weight tire even if just for local events.  It sounds like the best way to spend my money for now is to prioritize Indysport SGs for about $800.  Later in the summer, I can pick up some Maxsport RB3D2 (directional gravels) for about $500 and sell my Zestinos for ~$200.

I am curious about the Maxsport RB1F grass/mud tire.  The tread pattern has a few more voids than the Indysport SGs but it is hard to compare compounds over the internet.  The price is good but I don't see it recommended often.

ojannen said:

I ran in the DC region a few summers ago at the two day events at Frostburg and the Rally Farm.  Shawn destroyed me both times.  I have also seen Bee a few more times since then as he drives all over the country to rallycross.  I work as a musician on the weekends and late June into early July is pretty busy for me.  That event would be on my mind but I am already booked.

I am not really looking to win at nationals.  I can occasionally hang with the fast guys for a run or two but I am not consistent enough to do it over two days of runs.  Looking at results from the last few years, the last trophy spot in PR averaged 1.5 to 3 seconds a lap slower than the winner.  That might be more my speed.

I like the idea of going to a narrower and lighter weight tire even if just for local events.  It sounds like the best way to spend my money for now is to prioritize Indysport SGs for about $800.  Later in the summer, I can pick up some Maxsport RB3D2 (directional gravels) for about $500 and sell my Zestinos for ~$200.

I am curious about the Maxsport RB1F grass/mud tire.  The tread pattern has a few more voids than the Indysport SGs but it is hard to compare compounds over the internet.  The price is good but I don't see it recommended often.

A bunch of us here locally run them. I have a pair but not a full set. I find that they're pretty good in soft stuff (way better than a gravel but not as good as the Indy sports.) I pretty much just run them in any condition only on the rear, except summer Bakes clay. I would say at least half of the rear wheel drive cars here have a set of them. They also weear surprisingly well. I think I've had mine for 3 years, always run them on my rear wheels, and I still have a ton of tread left on them. I even won all three of my super special runs at STPR on them (one of those rounds against an STi lol)

You used to have the e28 right? by the way the venue at Panthera that we run now.....way more fun than either frostburg or the rally farm. Definitely try to get up here one of these days!

The Yokohama deep snow/mud rally tires are better than the Indy Sports IMO because they have a harder compound. The Indy Sports can get shredded in one or two runs if it is dry, up to and including ripping the tread blocks right out of the carcass.   As was painfully clear from my mountain biking days, sharp tread blocks are more important than compound when it is sloppy.  Just a little corner wear and the grip would go down noticably.

I will probably be bringing mine to Ross County in June but hope to not have to use them.

Knurled. said:

The Yokohama deep snow/mud tires are better than the Indy Sports IMO because they have a harder compound. The Indy Sports can get shredded in one or to runs if it is dry, up to and including ripping the tread blocks right out of the carcass.   As was painfully clear from my mountain biking days, sharp tread blocks are more important than compound when it is sloppy.  Just a little corner wear and the grip would go down noticably.

The A034's are truly awesome tires. They are also expensive as hell (and to my knowledge,  currently out of stock most places). I gave a used set to Shawn (moxnix) and I think he used them at Nats a couple years ago. Many times I have regretted that decision ;)

A fair number of us have ordered tires from Demon Tweeks in the UK. I had a set of Maxsport RB1 but I think the fast guys might be running the Haaka 2 now. Both of them can be cut as well, and a tire cutter might be another way to get what you want, cutting is legal in Mod, or was anyway. My biggest complaint with the RB1 was that they moved so much mud that they kind of screwed up the course.

Not the 034s.... the much older ones that look like dirtbike tires. I don't have any pics, I bought the set that Chris Hastings ("cghstang") bought for his ZX2.  They're probably 10+ years old by now but very well kept.

I did find the pics of Indy Sport carnage.  Do NOT drive them when it is dry.

What one dry session may look like.

For dry, Ive run the Federally G11 and they’re okay but only okay. Generals were faster on dry and SGs were much faster in anything damp. They’re a well built rally tire, but I wouldn’t buy them for RallyCross again unless my sites were rocky as heck (Harrisburg). Then they’re durable as heck!

irish44j said:

Vaughn, Brienne, etc....they roll deep with tires - and not just off-the-shelf stuff, also with some fairly bespoke/hard-to-get stuff (go find the insane new mud tires Vaughn recently picked up from someplace in Europe....they cost as much as all my stage rally tires combined).

Pictures of said tires, please?  

Kylini said:

For dry, Ive run the Federally G11 and they’re okay but only okay. Generals were faster on dry and SGs were much faster in anything damp. They’re a well built rally tire, but I wouldn’t buy them for RallyCross again unless my sites were rocky as heck (Harrisburg). Then they’re durable as heck!

That's good news as far as I'm concerned since i'm buying them for STPR and not primarily for rallycross. 

FooBag said:

irish44j said:

Vaughn, Brienne, etc....they roll deep with tires - and not just off-the-shelf stuff, also with some fairly bespoke/hard-to-get stuff (go find the insane new mud tires Vaughn recently picked up from someplace in Europe....they cost as much as all my stage rally tires combined).

Pictures of said tires, please?  

I'll have to dig around on Vaughn's FB page tomorrow. EDIT: well, the ones i was thinking of were some Unigom ice rally tires that he got for some new england events, but I do recall him saying something about another tire for rallycross, but damn if I recall what. I'll ask him next time we talk. 

ojannen said:

I am curious about the Maxsport RB1F grass/mud tire.  The tread pattern has a few more voids than the Indysport SGs but it is hard to compare compounds over the internet.  The price is good but I don't see it recommended often.

I really liked the RB1F when we tested them and they were certainly fast. They had the best turn in of any rally tire designs that I've run.  However, they had extreme durability issues, especially on a high HP, fairly heavy, FWD car.  We ripped off most of every single outer tread block at that one event.  They'd probably be pretty sweet tires for a lightweight car, especially one that isn't FWD.  I believe Doug Leibman took first with them at 2017 Nationals in his Super Beetle.

FooBag said:

ojannen said:

I am curious about the Maxsport RB1F grass/mud tire.  The tread pattern has a few more voids than the Indysport SGs but it is hard to compare compounds over the internet.  The price is good but I don't see it recommended often.

I really liked the RB1F when we tested them and they were certainly fast. They had the best turn in of any rally tire designs that I've run.  However, they had extreme durability issues, especially on a high HP, fairly heavy, FWD car.  We ripped off most of every single outer tread block at that one event.  They'd probably be pretty sweet tires for a lightweight car, especially one that isn't FWD.  I believe Doug Leibman took first with them at 2017 Nationals in his Super Beetle.

Yeah, I can't see them being great on a FWD car, as they don't have great side tread blocks for turn-in bite. For the last 2 seasons (rallycross, not rally) I've run sharp-edged DMacks up front for turn-in bite (the stiff sidewalls are great for that too), but RB1F's on the rear for traction, and it's been a good combination and won me a few events in a very competitive class here. The RB1F's have held up well pretty much using them on the rear for any condition other than sun-baked clay. They probably have 100 or so runs on them and are still probably 2/3rds tread depth. I expect to use them fo the rest of this season. They hold up well when not being used as a turning edge. 

That said, another e30 in our local class (which has three drivers and runs in PR and MR and does well in both) runs those tires front and rear and has done well with them, though they have debeaded a couple times on the front (another reason I prefer rally gravels). 

All depends on car setup, etc. 

This thread also kind of makes me a bit sad.....because it's a sign that the rallycross "arms race" is becoming more like autocross. 5-6 years ago even at divisional events pretty much everyone was out there on secondhand take-off tires from stage rally teams (maybe a couple big-budget guys were buying new gravels), which was a great equalizer to see who was actually the best driver or who had the best car.

These days, the higher-level events seem to be heavily decided by who brought what tires,  based on what our locals who have gone to nationals talk about. Hearing some of you saying you have 8 sets of tires for rallycross is insane. I can't think of many stage teams that carry more than 2-3 sets to a rally (SRT and other factory teams excepted). Y'all need to take that money and build stage cars ;)

irish44j said:

This thread also kind of makes me a bit sad.....because it's a sign that the rallycross "arms race" is becoming more like autocross. 5-6 years ago even at divisional events pretty much everyone was out there on secondhand take-off tires from stage rally teams (maybe a couple big-budget guys were buying new gravels), which was a great equalizer to see who was actually the best driver or who had the best car.

These days, the higher-level events seem to be heavily decided by who brought what tires,  based on what our locals who have gone to nationals talk about. Hearing some of you saying you have 8 sets of tires for rallycross is insane. I can't think of many stage teams that carry more than 2-3 sets to a rally (SRT and other factory teams excepted). Y'all need to take that money and build stage cars ;)

It won’t make you feel much better, but with IndySport being the “spec” tire, we’ve had dead even competition in PR at Nats. Shawn and Myles/Me both had the same tires (BR, SG) for the past two Nats and we placed the same both times (Myles, then Shawn, then me). So yes, we had a lotta tires but we also had the same lotta tires. 

Also, the tire thing has been going on for a while at nationals. Tire racks with 2-3 extra sets have been there since I went in 2014. I had my mud tires then though I never ran them. Even with all the fancy tires we won PF on snows in 2014, so you never know.