Who is buying a brand new BRZ or FRS

alfadriver wrote: So it's ok to rail on the industry for making a car that you have no intention of buying new?

Yes. Why would anyone rail on them for making cars they intended to buy?

Or that you hope is a marketing success to start, but a failure shortly so that you can buy one used?

Yes. I hope it is a gangbuster of a win for them in the showroom but marred with terrible resale values for no good reason.

If nobody leases or buys them off the lot, how does anyone expect to get one used?

If NOBODY buys them, they will be really affordable next year on that same lot

alfadriver wrote: If nobody leases or buys them off the lot, how does anyone expect to get one used?

I think that's a real concern, particularly in our slow recovery (for what it's worth I know lots of recent college grads with good jobs). What I am saying is that the manufacturers know that they aren't going to sell tens of thousands of these things to hardcore sports car enthusiasts. That's why I brought up the (low) membership numbers of the SCCA. Toyota/Subaru will market this car to people who want a sporty looking car, that's a group big enough to move some cars off lots.

The cars may fail, but it isn't going to be because hardcore enthusiasts failed to buy, they were always a sliver of the target market. Toyota knows this, Subaru does, and so should you.

Of course those of us who like the car but aren't in the new car market can do our part to promote it to family and friends who are in the market. And we can take time out of our days to correct trolls who seem to think the car is FWD.

ShadowSix wrote: And we can take time out of our days to correct trolls who seem to think the car is FWD.

It has been widely reported that 80% of BMW 1-series owners think their car is front wheel drive.

ShadowSix wrote:

alfadriver wrote: If nobody leases or buys them off the lot, how does anyone expect to get one used?

I think that's a real concern, particularly in our slow recovery (for what it's worth I know lots of recent college grads with good jobs). What I am saying is that the manufacturers know that they aren't going to sell tens of thousands of these things to hardcore sports car enthusiasts. That's why I brought up the (low) membership numbers of the SCCA. Toyota/Subaru will market this car to people who want a sporty looking car, that's a group big enough to move some cars off lots. The cars may fail, but it isn't going to be because hardcore enthusiasts failed to buy, they were always a sliver of the target market. Toyota knows this, Subaru does, and so should you. Of course those of us who like the car but aren't in the new car market can do our part to promote it to family and friends who are in the market. And we can take time out of our days to correct trolls who seem to think the car is FWD.

Methinks this makes a lot of sense. What I see emerging is the fact that true Motorheads spend so much time toiling away in the garage building cars for $2000 that there is no time or energy left over to earn all the filthy lucre required to uy newcars.

I also agree that the car companie are well aware of this character flaw of ours and hence mine our demographic for what we are worth, and ignore us in all other respects. It does Toyota no good from a direct fnanc point of view when we buyoe of these second hand. However, they do knw that we will create an image for the car if it meets our needs, and that WILL profit them in the form of brand image.

I'd buy one but for one problem. A car like that in my hands will find its way to the track. In which case, it's one oil/coolant spill away from being scrap metal. No thanks. That's too big a risk for me. When I buy a new car, it's for my wife, and we'll keep it around 10 years. If I'm going to track a car, it has to be one that I'm willing to write off. I suspect that a lot of GRM'ers feel the same way. It's not that we're too cheap or hypocrites, it's all about how we use our vehicles. Hopefully someday I'll be to the point where I can risk losing $25K in an instant, but that time isn't now.

I wont be buying one new, but i really want one. I have a Celica and the Celica forums have been stalking the progress of the GT86 since 2008. I love everything about it.

kreb wrote: I'd buy one but for one problem. A car like that in my hands will find its way to the track. In which case, it's one oil/coolant spill away from being scrap metal. No thanks. That's too big a risk for me. When I buy a new car, it's for my wife, and we'll keep it around 10 years. If I'm going to track a car, it has to be one that I'm willing to write off. I suspect that a lot of GRM'ers feel the same way. It's not that we're too cheap or hypocrites, it's all about how we use our vehicles. Hopefully someday I'll be to the point where I can risk losing $25K in an instant, but that time isn't now.

A friend of mine had a fire in his track car this weekend, and it looks like it could be the end of that car. Even for a "disposable" track car, it still hurts. A lot of time, sweat, and some money went into that car. As you said, though, better to have a smaller loss than to lose $25K in an instant. A few years ago I came to the conclusion that you should never, ever track something you can't afford to lose...

NOHOME wrote:

ShadowSix wrote:

alfadriver wrote: If nobody leases or buys them off the lot, how does anyone expect to get one used?

I think that's a real concern, particularly in our slow recovery (for what it's worth I know lots of recent college grads with good jobs). What I am saying is that the manufacturers know that they aren't going to sell tens of thousands of these things to hardcore sports car enthusiasts. That's why I brought up the (low) membership numbers of the SCCA. Toyota/Subaru will market this car to people who want a sporty looking car, that's a group big enough to move some cars off lots. The cars may fail, but it isn't going to be because hardcore enthusiasts failed to buy, they were always a sliver of the target market. Toyota knows this, Subaru does, and so should you. Of course those of us who like the car but aren't in the new car market can do our part to promote it to family and friends who are in the market. And we can take time out of our days to correct trolls who seem to think the car is FWD.

Methinks this makes a lot of sense. What I see emerging is the fact that true Motorheads spend so much time toiling away in the garage building cars for $2000 that there is no time or energy left over to earn all the filthy lucre required to uy newcars. I also agree that the car companie are well aware of this character flaw of ours and hence mine our demographic for what we are worth, and ignore us in all other respects. It does Toyota no good from a direct fnanc point of view when we buyoe of these second hand. However, they do knw that we will create an image for the car if it meets our needs, and that WILL profit them in the form of brand image.

Yeah, the marketing departments have probably quantified that "halo" effect too. How many people will come in to look at an FR-S and leave with a tC? Maybe more importantly, how much does this raise the value of the Scion brand overall? Up to a few months ago when you said, "Scion" I thought of the original xB. Or a descendant of an influential family.

If they can get production up and going to meet demand as planned and keep the price as advertised it will be a total win for Toyota/Subaru.

I just bought an FR-S because of the following reasons: 1) I have been thinking about maybe getting a miata for a loooong time (at least since 2004) but only fit in the NC and do not like convertables 2) For the past couple years I've seen the AE86 was going to make a comeback and the promise of a 'lightweight', RWD coupe/hatchback with good handling was right up my ally. 3) All the reviews from the past 8 months have basically made it car of the year if not decade, with special mention by everyone that this car's philosophy of design was 100% driver oriented 4) Aesthetics... gorgeous exterior styling...like a mini Maserati Grand Turismo meets and Aston Martin Vantage V8 and the interior is no-nosense yet very good quality. And finally 5) the Test Drive...

I've never bought a brand new car before, always have gotten used "economical" performance orientated cars and modified them for autocross/track - '90 Integra GS > '98 Camaro V6 > '90 Integra RS. The '90 Integra RS being the best one overall on track and to autocross and crazy on the street with ~2300lb weight (full tank) on Nitto NT-01s and Hawk HP+ pads. The V6 Camaro was good overall once I got the weight down (totally stripped interior except for dash with 8lb racing seats and still came in at just over 3200lbs with full tank), changed out the horribly vague stock 5-speed shifter to a Hurst Competition unit, and redid the suspension with Koni's, massive hollow anti-roll bars front and rear, and tubular linkage/panhard bar with spherical rod bearings. The one place it was phenominal was in braking... with Hawk HP+ pads and Nitto NT-555RII track tires it was just insane how it could come to a dead stop from speed... when taking an Evolution Phase II course Andy Hollis even had to remind himself how this car slowed down after the first few times...otherwise it could easily over-brake and you could literally come to a stop on course. The Camaro didn't compare to the dynamics of the Integra though...there is no substitute for lightweight when it comes to quick transitions and turn-in.

So I've tracked and daily drove a heavily altered Integra that was a limpet on the backside of Lotus Elise's and Corvette Z-06's in the turns and technical sections of MSR Houston and a heavily altered Camaro that would pop out your eyeballs when decellerating... and that hasn't prepared me for driving a stock Scion FR-S that I still haven't revved past 4k rpm yet...

Turn-in and transitional response... And the steering feel and precision that gives a nimbleness the Integra just can't match... How can a nearly 2700lb+ car be this good?!?! It has to be this car bends the laws of physics....on stock tires that are optional Prius summer tires!

While deceleration is no where near the G-inducing event my V6 Camaro gave, the sensitivity of the braking is other-wordly... I think its even more sensitive than the accelerator pedal! Get a nice pad compound that complements the sensitivity while increasing the brake force and it should be awesome!

Suspension just smooths out the harshness and provides just enough firmness to keep a nice planted feel - feels as planted as my brothers 2005 Impreza RS on Hankook RS-3's...

Best seat's ever award in a car retailing under $25k...seriously, everybody loves the seats and man are they comfy while also securely holding you in place. Seats are my main area of contention in most cars, which is why I have a Recaro Ergonomic in my Tacoma. The FR-S stock seat is every bit as good as the Recaro Ergonomic seat in comfort while more securely holding you in place when things get curvy... win-win!

Fuel mileage - yes she takes premium because of the high compression ratio, but I recently filled up for the first time and seemed to average just over 30mpg in mixed driving conditions including "having fun in turns..." Haven't even cruised on the highway yet....I believe the high 30's mpg people have reported getting, with near maximum torque just past 2k rpms it's no torqueless Honda, and you can be in 6th at ~38 mph without bogging down and with somewhat decent acceleration...

Once I get past the initial 1k mile break-in I will be going to MSR Houston for a track day to she how she is and finally rev past 4k rpm for the first time...

The only thing I need to get used to is the attention this car commands. You can't drive anywhere without cars scrambling to get along side or slip in behind and stay. And in parking lots you get lots of people coming up and commenting on it and asking about it...

I can say without a doubt this FR-S the first car I've truly fallen in love with... could just be the 'asphalt' color though...

After that I just called the local dealership to see if I could get a test drive. They said they don't have any and probably won't be bringing any in, said it will cost about $100kUS landed (I was expecting ~$50k). I said "That seems to be a lot more than other cars in the same price range." Sales guy said he knows and doesn't understand why.

My wife ordered a black Limited BRZ. Patiently waiting its arrival.

Vracer111 wrote: If they can get production up and going to meet demand as planned and keep the price as advertised it will be a total win for Toyota/Subaru. I just bought an FR-S because of the following reasons: 1) I have been thinking about maybe getting a miata for a loooong time (at least since 2004) but only fit in the NC and do not like convertables 2) For the past couple years I've seen the AE86 was going to make a comeback and the promise of a 'lightweight', RWD coupe/hatchback with good handling was right up my ally. 3) All the reviews from the past 8 months have basically made it car of the year if not decade, with special mention by everyone that this car's philosophy of design was 100% driver oriented 4) Aesthetics... gorgeous exterior styling...like a mini Maserati Grand Turismo meets and Aston Martin Vantage V8 and the interior is no-nosense yet very good quality. And finally 5) the Test Drive... I've never bought a brand new car before, always have gotten used "economical" performance orientated cars and modified them for autocross/track - '90 Integra GS > '98 Camaro V6 > '90 Integra RS. The '90 Integra RS being the best one overall on track and to autocross and crazy on the street with ~2300lb weight (full tank) on Nitto NT-01s and Hawk HP+ pads. The V6 Camaro was good overall once I got the weight down (totally stripped interior except for dash with 8lb racing seats and still came in at just over 3200lbs with full tank), changed out the horribly vague stock 5-speed shifter to a Hurst Competition unit, and redid the suspension with Koni's, massive hollow anti-roll bars front and rear, and tubular linkage/panhard bar with spherical rod bearings. The one place it was phenominal was in braking... with Hawk HP+ pads and Nitto NT-555RII track tires it was just insane how it could come to a dead stop from speed... when taking an Evolution Phase II course Andy Hollis even had to remind himself how this car slowed down after the first few times...otherwise it could easily over-brake and you could literally come to a stop on course. The Camaro didn't compare to the dynamics of the Integra though...there is no substitute for lightweight when it comes to quick transitions and turn-in. So I've tracked and daily drove a heavily altered Integra that was a limpet on the backside of Lotus Elise's and Corvette Z-06's in the turns and technical sections of MSR Houston and a heavily altered Camaro that would pop out your eyeballs when decellerating... and that hasn't prepared me for driving a stock Scion FR-S that I still haven't revved past 4k rpm yet... Turn-in and transitional response... And the steering feel and precision that gives a nimbleness the Integra just can't match... How can a nearly 2700lb+ car be this good?!?! It has to be this car bends the laws of physics....on stock tires that are optional Prius summer tires! While deceleration is no where near the G-inducing event my V6 Camaro gave, the sensitivity of the braking is other-wordly... I think its even more sensitive than the accelerator pedal! Get a nice pad compound that complements the sensitivity while increasing the brake force and it should be awesome! Suspension just smooths out the harshness and provides just enough firmness to keep a nice planted feel - feels as planted as my brothers 2005 Impreza RS on Hankook RS-3's... Best seat's ever award in a car retailing under $25k...seriously, everybody loves the seats and man are they comfy while also securely holding you in place. Seats are my main area of contention in most cars, which is why I have a Recaro Ergonomic in my Tacoma. The FR-S stock seat is every bit as good as the Recaro Ergonomic seat in comfort while more securely holding you in place when things get curvy... win-win! Fuel mileage - yes she takes premium because of the high compression ratio, but I recently filled up for the first time and seemed to average just over 30mpg in mixed driving conditions including "having fun in turns..." Haven't even cruised on the highway yet....I believe the high 30's mpg people have reported getting, with near maximum torque just past 2k rpms it's no torqueless Honda, and you can be in 6th at ~38 mph without bogging down and with somewhat decent acceleration... Once I get past the initial 1k mile break-in I will be going to MSR Houston for a track day to she how she is and finally rev past 4k rpm for the first time... The only thing I need to get used to is the attention this car commands. You can't drive anywhere without cars scrambling to get along side or slip in behind and stay. And in parking lots you get lots of people coming up and commenting on it and asking about it... I can say without a doubt this FR-S the first car I've truly fallen in love with... could just be the 'asphalt' color though...

VRacer:

Thank you for that long piece of prose. I was too lazy to write that much.

To those who differ on their views of the car: After you drive this car, I will listen to your comments and opinions. Until you do, its like virgin teenagers comparing magazine centerfolds. You gotta go out and try the real thing. This car is the equivalent of a good escort; its that much fun and that much different than the daily driver most of us are used to.

The twins are not for people without any money, people who don't buy new cars on principle or people who need a minivan to support their lifestyle, but its a very fun car to spend time behind the wheel.

Now...if the bitch would just show up!

This guy continues to be depressed the wife won't say yes to one!

z31maniac wrote: This guy continues to be depressed the wife won't say yes to one!

The FRS or the Escort?

Bah Escorts are cheap and not that special. I would never compare one to this car.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Bah Escorts are cheap and not that special. I would never compare one to this car.

Wrong kind of Escort...

93EXCivic wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Bah Escorts are cheap and not that special. I would never compare one to this car.

Wrong kind of Escort...

Same statement applies.

NOHOME wrote:

z31maniac wrote: This guy continues to be depressed the wife won't say yes to one!

The FRS or the Escort?

FRS or BRZ, I'd probably go with the BRZ.

Vracer111 wrote: If they can get production up and going to meet demand as planned and keep the price as advertised it will be a total win for Toyota/Subaru. I just bought an FR-S because of the following reasons: 1) I have been thinking about maybe getting a miata for a loooong time (at least since 2004) but only fit in the NC and do not like convertables 2) For the past couple years I've seen the AE86 was going to make a comeback and the promise of a 'lightweight', RWD coupe/hatchback with good handling was right up my ally. 3) All the reviews from the past 8 months have basically made it car of the year if not decade, with special mention by everyone that this car's philosophy of design was 100% driver oriented 4) Aesthetics... gorgeous exterior styling...like a mini Maserati Grand Turismo meets and Aston Martin Vantage V8 and the interior is no-nosense yet very good quality. And finally 5) the Test Drive... I've never bought a brand new car before, always have gotten used "economical" performance orientated cars and modified them for autocross/track - '90 Integra GS > '98 Camaro V6 > '90 Integra RS. The '90 Integra RS being the best one overall on track and to autocross and crazy on the street with ~2300lb weight (full tank) on Nitto NT-01s and Hawk HP+ pads. The V6 Camaro was good overall once I got the weight down (totally stripped interior except for dash with 8lb racing seats and still came in at just over 3200lbs with full tank), changed out the horribly vague stock 5-speed shifter to a Hurst Competition unit, and redid the suspension with Koni's, massive hollow anti-roll bars front and rear, and tubular linkage/panhard bar with spherical rod bearings. The one place it was phenominal was in braking... with Hawk HP+ pads and Nitto NT-555RII track tires it was just insane how it could come to a dead stop from speed... when taking an Evolution Phase II course Andy Hollis even had to remind himself how this car slowed down after the first few times...otherwise it could easily over-brake and you could literally come to a stop on course. The Camaro didn't compare to the dynamics of the Integra though...there is no substitute for lightweight when it comes to quick transitions and turn-in. So I've tracked and daily drove a heavily altered Integra that was a limpet on the backside of Lotus Elise's and Corvette Z-06's in the turns and technical sections of MSR Houston and a heavily altered Camaro that would pop out your eyeballs when decellerating... and that hasn't prepared me for driving a stock Scion FR-S that I still haven't revved past 4k rpm yet... Turn-in and transitional response... And the steering feel and precision that gives a nimbleness the Integra just can't match... How can a nearly 2700lb+ car be this good?!?! It has to be this car bends the laws of physics....on stock tires that are optional Prius summer tires! While deceleration is no where near the G-inducing event my V6 Camaro gave, the sensitivity of the braking is other-wordly... I think its even more sensitive than the accelerator pedal! Get a nice pad compound that complements the sensitivity while increasing the brake force and it should be awesome! Suspension just smooths out the harshness and provides just enough firmness to keep a nice planted feel - feels as planted as my brothers 2005 Impreza RS on Hankook RS-3's... Best seat's ever award in a car retailing under $25k...seriously, everybody loves the seats and man are they comfy while also securely holding you in place. Seats are my main area of contention in most cars, which is why I have a Recaro Ergonomic in my Tacoma. The FR-S stock seat is every bit as good as the Recaro Ergonomic seat in comfort while more securely holding you in place when things get curvy... win-win! Fuel mileage - yes she takes premium because of the high compression ratio, but I recently filled up for the first time and seemed to average just over 30mpg in mixed driving conditions including "having fun in turns..." Haven't even cruised on the highway yet....I believe the high 30's mpg people have reported getting, with near maximum torque just past 2k rpms it's no torqueless Honda, and you can be in 6th at ~38 mph without bogging down and with somewhat decent acceleration... Once I get past the initial 1k mile break-in I will be going to MSR Houston for a track day to she how she is and finally rev past 4k rpm for the first time... The only thing I need to get used to is the attention this car commands. You can't drive anywhere without cars scrambling to get along side or slip in behind and stay. And in parking lots you get lots of people coming up and commenting on it and asking about it... I can say without a doubt this FR-S the first car I've truly fallen in love with... could just be the 'asphalt' color though...

This whole story made me car-oused. It's so exciting to hear about. You should slap up some photos. :D

I'm in the "eagerly waiting for them to arrive" camp. I've typically avoided buying new cars but in the past 5 years I've gone through several used and just have not "clicked" with any of them as much as I have the last new car I purchased, my Tacoma. My only real hesitation (aside from not having had the opportunity to get behind the wheel of one) is the first year of a new model thing, and the whole having to finance a brand new car thing, but from all I've heard and read, a test drive might make me get over all that very quickly.

I hate having a car payment, but in my mind, if I'm going to spend the amount of time I do every day in a car, it might as well be a pleasant place to be, and it better put a smile on my face when I leave my crappy office and see it in the parking lot. I also have the distinction of having zero kids, aside from a spoiled dog, who rides in the truck. So that being said, I guess I'm in the .025% of people on this board who might actually bite on this one.

Oh, and my past 5 cars included a miata and a zx3 focus, both of which for the most part were more fun than my current first gen CTS-V for the most part, aside from the miata being to small and the zx3 looking like an egg.

I want to hear more about the FRS/BRZ. I just can't get enough. I do a YouTube Search for them every day and i'm subscribed to them on Facebook and everything.

In reply to EdenPrime:

go over to FT86 club

When will they be at dealers, available for general sale?

chaparral wrote: When will they be at dealers, available for general sale?

Today.

Unless your country is having a rail strike and your car is stuck on a train between Vancouver and Toronto

I have been feeling very anti- union this last few weeks as I await my car.