Why are MazdaSpeed Miata's so cheap? (relatively)

I'm seriously considering taking some of my severance to pay down the negative equity of the BRZ, sell it, and put some down on a nice 2001-2005 Miata in an effort to cut down my monthly expenses.

I've noticed what I consider to be a "nice" NB2, low miles/not dinged up/good condition top.....an MSM seems to be only a few thousand more. And while heavier, also much nicer with all the good strong driveline parts.

A few appropriate mods and you'd have a reliable DD, occasional AutoX/HPDE car, that is still nice to drive on the street.

Thoughts?

Gearing stinks for auto-x, basically, I hope you like shifting between 2 & 3 as you would be doing a lot of it.

They are 10 years and two generations old now. The NBs mostly sell on condition these days, and like you said the price differential is not that great to the MSM.

My recipe would be a Little Enchilada, 15" wheels (selling the stock ones to recoup the cost) and a 5-speed trans (again, selling the 6-speed to recoup the cost and make some profit). Makes for a nicely geared car with about 200 at the wheels.

I think that out of several reasons, the single biggest one is that there isn't a big demand for them, when they came out or now.

IIRC the gearing of the 6spd manual is not well matched to a turbo car. I think there are a few other minor things that rain on the factory turbo miata parade. That being said I would buy one for the reasons you listed. Plus they look better than the regular miata.

Mr_Clutch42 wrote: I think that out of several reasons, the single biggest one is that there isn't a big demand for them, when they came out or now.

They weren't big sellers on the lot, but between the difference of the new NC replacement and the aftermarket stepping up they retained their value very well at first. They're a good base if you want 200 hp. If you want 250, they don't have a lot of advantages over any other NB.

Keith Tanner wrote: They are 10 years and two generations old now. The NBs mostly sell on condition these days, and like you said the price differential is not that great to the MSM. My recipe would be a Little Enchilada, 15" wheels (selling the stock ones to recoup the cost) and a 5-speed trans (again, selling the 6-speed to recoup the cost and make some profit). Makes for a nicely geared car with about 200 at the wheels.

That would make for a fun little daily. Although I'm not sure about the swap to a 5spd, how does that do on track?

I'd do more track days than AutoX and you know my local track (Hallett). Would it be worth it to keep the 6spd and swap the R&P for a lower numerically gear?

Personally i'd keep the 6spd and go for a 3.63 or a 3.9 if you're going to keep it around 200hp and stock redline.

The factory gearing becomes much more liveable with a normal redline. Little Enchilada + standalone of your choice = ~220whp and gearing is more betterer.

This is just personal preference at this point. I don't personally enjoy the funky rpm drops of the 5spd, but it IS a way to get about $400 back in your pocket after an afternoon of swapping transmissions.

That all said, i think it would be more rewarding to spend stock MSM money on an NB1/NB2 and suspension. I know you well enough to know that it's going to take a good chunk of change for you to like the MSM.

That's the reason I originally bought a new MSM in mid 2006. For essentially the same price, I had the option of a Miata or a factory upgraded and turbocharged Miata. While they're far from perfect, for keeping stock to lightly modded I found no down side to this equation. It doesn't hurt that in my opinion they certainly do look the best of any factory Miata short of the ND...Especially with the Lava Orange paint. And call me weird, but I also found the imperfectness of it gave it a bit more personality and character than my regular Miata had. If I still had it, I probably would have fixed the gearing with a set of 3.636 rear gears:

6 speed + 3.636 final drive = 5 speed + 4.3 final drive + highway cruising gear.

Swank Force One wrote: Personally i'd keep the 6spd and go for a 3.63 or a 3.9 if you're going to keep it around 200hp and stock redline. The factory gearing becomes much more liveable with a normal redline. Little Enchilada + standalone of your choice = ~220whp and gearing is more betterer. This is just personal preference at this point. I don't personally enjoy the funky rpm drops of the 5spd, but it IS a way to get about $400 back in your pocket after an afternoon of swapping transmissions. That all said, i think it would be more rewarding to spend stock MSM money on an NB1/NB2 and suspension. I know you well enough to know that it's going to take a good chunk of change for you to like the MSM.

Good point. I'm not going to make any rash decisions, my dad always said, "If you don't know what to do, don't do anything." When it came to big $$$ money purchases and the like.

Although I am going to drive up to Safe Racer tomorrow and buy a helmet, so I can at least go try AutoX in the BRZ until I decide what to do.

I like the shift action of the 5-speed over the 6, and I don't find the gear ratios "funky". But maybe I'm just used to them after 20-odd years of driving them every day. They're right where I expect them to be. Now, a Vanagon gearbox, that has funky gearing. Big gap between 3 and 4.

We did the 5-speed swap on the FM shop MSM, and nobody regretted it one little bit. Missed shifts went away and the gearing was much better for our track. If I was paying the bills, I'd still do it - selling the MSM trans for a profit is preferred over shelling out a bunch of money for a different R&P plus installation. The MSM had different axles than the rest of the line so you can't just grab a 3.9 out of a 1999-03 6-speed car and stuff the whole differential in there.

Personal preference, as noted.

My preferences are probably just from spending more time in 6spd Miatas than 5spds. The rpm drops on the turbo 95 i had confused me, though it didn't matter so much in that car because it made gobs of power everywhere.

BTW: My old MSM lives in Colorado now, guy i sold it to sold it again. Last dyno i saw, it was doing north of 260whp and had a 3.63 in it. Did a 12.7 @ 107mph with the 4.10 still in it. Sometimes i miss it.

I miss mine. Now that they make the flat door panels for it, I've been looking at another one. I still have a few of the parts sitting around for it like the exhaust and a few other bits.

Flat door panels?

I did a bunch of work to an MSM and left it feeling totally 'meh'.

It is turbo, but barely. It's not any kind of fast. Granted, the 1.6 miata i just got has been a real eye opener on the 'gutless' front. I dislike most if not all the factory plumbing on the MSM to the point that it would be hard to own one without spending money changing it, and once you start changing much of anything, you're pretty much better off buying a cheaper non-turbo miata and putting the turbo setup you actually want into it.

However, i really like the 6pd+3.63 idea. A stockish MSM with that and some very minor upgrades would probably be a great car overall if you didnt have high power expectations.

I love mine, even with the wonky stock ECU tune, the too short redline and rear end gear ratio. Picked the Miata over a lot of other cars; test drove at least 10 different cars before I got it. I was surprised I did not like the S2K more.

Not great for auto cross due to redline and gearing, very nice on the street. When it was stock, it was about even with the other Miatae dodging cones in ES. Good power, especially with a few minor mods, just an intake will wake it up a lot. The shifter is pretty sweet, once you put the Miataroadster kit in it. I drove a stock one last week and after the guy drove mine, he was sold on Mr Wilner's work. I will eventually get the ECU reflashed and the 3.63 gears it came with in the Land of Oz and should have come with here. I plan to keep it a long time, my grandson likes it a lot, figures he'll end up with it or the 914 I suspect. I think it is the best looking Miata they have ever sold, including the ND.

I live in California, so you are extremely limited on what you can do to your car. I don't know that there are any CARB legal turbo kits, I think there are supercharger options.

I've been daily driving one for almost 7 years. It has the LE, 16" rims, and a Megasquirt. My next mod should be swapping out the injectors and fuel pump to help ensure it doesn't run lean. Dumping the stock ECU really helped power delivery, and that was the real buzz kill for me. Now it's fast enough for street use and occasional autocrossing. The 3.63 diff is tempting, but not a particularly cheap option. The stock suspension is OK, but there are much better aftermarket options available.

At first I didn't like the 6-speed as much as the 5-speed. Maybe I've forgotten how good the older Miata was, but now I don't mind the way it shifts or the gearing (unless I'm autocrossing).

speaking of miatas, hows the price on this one?

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/cto/5160328715.html

What's the reliability like on these years miatas? Can I take it to 120k without any repairs other than maintenance?

I love my MSM. I've added a BEGi intake, eBay intercooler, FM turboback and O2 signal modifier, and aftermarket "bog" solenoid to it, and it's a great daily driver, with just the right amount of power. The signal modifier helped smooth out the stumble I was getting around 4500 rpm. Someday, I'd like to ditch the 6-speed and the factory ECU.

In reply to Coldsnap:

Yeah probably. Might need a clutch by then, will definitely need a timing belt service if it hasnt been done.

In reply to Coldsnap:

I've seen that ad before. I don't know why that hasn't sold already. I have a 2005 Lava Orange MSM and in my mind it is worth more than $7k. I have about the same miles on mine. I've only had to replace a fuel pump (in the first year) and an O2 sensor. Other than that it's been oil changes, air filters, and I did replace the timing belt, water pump and accessory belts last year. I would think it would go to 120k miles easily, but now I end up driving it way less than 10k miles per year, so it will take me a while to get there.

T.J. wrote: In reply to Coldsnap: I've seen that ad before. I don't know why that hasn't sold already. I have a 2005 Lava Orange MSM and in my mind it is worth more than $7k. I have about the same miles on mine. I've only had to replace a fuel pump (in the first year) and an O2 sensor. Other than that it's been oil changes, air filters, and I did replace the timing belt, water pump and accessory belts last year. I would think it would go to 120k miles easily, but now I end up driving it way less than 10k miles per year, so it will take me a while to get there.

Probably hasn't sold because the car in the ad is a Shinsen, which most people think is a pretty ugly combo, and is pretty much just a normal Miata with a strange color soft top.

Vigo wrote: It is turbo, but barely. It's not any kind of fast. Granted, the 1.6 miata i just got has been a real eye opener on the 'gutless' front. I dislike most if not all the factory plumbing on the MSM to the point that it would be hard to own one without spending money changing it, and once you start changing much of anything, you're pretty much better off buying a cheaper non-turbo miata and putting the turbo setup you actually want into it.

If you're looking for 2500 lbs and 200 rwhp, the MSM makes a good base. The stock turbo, injectors and ECU will deliver that fairly easily. It's fast enough to be entertaining but it won't leave dents in the headrest.

If you want more, then you'll change enough parts that the MSM may not be the smart choice.

Keith Tanner wrote:

Vigo wrote: It is turbo, but barely. It's not any kind of fast. Granted, the 1.6 miata i just got has been a real eye opener on the 'gutless' front. I dislike most if not all the factory plumbing on the MSM to the point that it would be hard to own one without spending money changing it, and once you start changing much of anything, you're pretty much better off buying a cheaper non-turbo miata and putting the turbo setup you actually want into it.

If you're looking for 2500 lbs and 200 rwhp, the MSM makes a good base. The stock turbo, injectors and ECU will deliver that fairly easily. It's fast enough to be entertaining but it won't leave dents in the headrest. If you want more, then you'll change enough parts that the MSM may not be the smart choice.

Exactly, I love the BRZ, but it's more like 2700lbs and 175whp.

I don't think i'd change cars for 200lbs, 25whp, and more complexity.

But that's just me.