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Maroon92
Maroon92 MegaDork
5/27/13 10:58 a.m.

We all know that "perpetual motion" isn't possible, but why?

Now, I'm no scientist, just a curious semi-intelligent human.

My theory is that, when using an electric motor to power a car, there are several pieces of the motion pie that can be recovered as electric energy.

I think that using each wheel/hub assembly as an alternator could be an efficient way to regenerate wasted energy. Even if it were only at highway speeds, I would think that four relatively efficient wheel alternators would at least assist in regenerating energy lost by exerting the electric motors.

For example, most wheels turn at between 700 and 800 rpm at 60mph (check my facts?), and several wind turbine type generators operate at maximum efficiency at these speeds. By using lightweight wheel technologies (carbon fiber barrels and aluminum centers, perhaps?), the magnets could be inserted into the barrels with minimum additional sprung weight.

Also, perhaps manipulating low and high pressure areas of the car, an induction site for a wind powered energy could be built into the design?

Why not throw in some solar panels for good measure?

In a perfect world, the electric car would certainly get a longer range with minimal weight and cost penalties, right?

Tell me why I'm wrong... I love to learn!

RossD
RossD PowerDork
5/27/13 11:18 a.m.

Well, they do use the electric motor to slow the car and it acts like a generator then. Regenerative braking.

The wind turbine: It takes wind power to turn a turbine. If it was mounted on the car, and there was no wind, the engine would have to turn it by 'drag' so to say. Too many power conversion factors that aren't 100%, so losses at every step. One blade looks kind of like a wing, right? Put that wing on the back of a car and you have a spoiler. Spoilers cause drag. Drag = hp.

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon MegaDork
5/27/13 11:20 a.m.

It takes energy to turn the wheels to make the car move. It also takes energy to spin an alternator to generate electricity, which is the principle behind regenerative braking and also how locomotive brakes work. If it's working all the time there's going to be a net energy loss, unfortunately.

Now something which WOULD help would be to rig it so it only worked when braking and freewheeling (coasting) downhill.

Maroon92
Maroon92 MegaDork
5/27/13 11:28 a.m.

If the wheels are already turning, then why would it cause any additional drag to have them generating electricity at speed? I guess I don't understand the difference in drag between a freewheeling alternator and one under load".

As for the fan, I had it in my head as mounting it in the front trunk, and having the low pressure under the car sucking air through the fan blades by use of a "cowl induction" style hood. It's a minimal drag increase with an increase in potential high speed energy recovery.

Hal
Hal Dork
5/27/13 11:35 a.m.
Curmudgeon wrote: It takes energy to turn the wheels to make the car move. It also takes energy to spin an alternator to generate electricity, which is the principle behind regenerative braking and also how locomotive brakes work. If it's working all the time there's going to be a net energy loss, unfortunately.

I don't get your logic. The wheels are turning when the car is moving. Why not use that motion/energy to recharge the batteries? Regenerative braking uses the electric motor to generate the electricity.

Alternators in the wheels would be an entirely separate system just like the alternator on a fossil fuel engine. except that you would have 4 of them.

RossD
RossD PowerDork
5/27/13 11:40 a.m.

It doesn't matter where you mount the fan. The engine is moving the car, and subsequently creating the different pressures around the car. The fan would create the pressure drop that the engine would end up paying for in horsepower.

Think of an airplane. Would you think to mount a wind turbine at the tail? Maybe right behind the propeller to get all that free wind coming off it? No you wouldn't. At some point the propeller would only be putting in wind power to the turbine and the plane would never move. You would also be making heat and noise and vibrations from the engine and that the turbine would not be able to make power from.

You don't get electricity out of your electric radiator fan do you?

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 UberDork
5/27/13 11:43 a.m.

There is no free lunch. If you put a load on an alternator, it becomes difficult to turn the alternator pulley. If your car is powered by an electric motor, and you have an alternator built into each wheel, it will take additional energy to turn those wheels to both move the car AND generate electricity.

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon MegaDork
5/27/13 11:48 a.m.

An alternator or generator is just a motor running in reverse and if it's under load it will create a drag. The Law of Conservation of Energy says that if you put x volts in from a battery but use y volts to generate more electricity then the battery will go dead sooner than if you merely fed that same x volts to the motor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy You'd need energy from an outside source: a combustion engine of some sort, solar panels (which have their own set of problems) or inertia, which is why it would work going downhill.

Here's a quick demo of how it works: hold a small electric motor (like a R/C car DC motor) in your hand, make sure the terminals are not connected together, then spin the shaft with your fingers. The motor will spin over a few revolutions then stop.

Now, connect the two terminals together with a piece of wire, a resistor, etc and try it again. It'll spin one turn and stop because the magnetic fields operating on the armature act as a brake and also generate an electric current. It doesn't matter whether you spin the magnets or the copper windings, the effect is the same. That's why on older cars when you threw on all the electrically powered accessories (lights, heater blower, brake lights etc) at idle you hear the engine slow down. It's because the alternator places a load on the engine.

Newer cars with electronic idle control compensate for the load so the idle will stay constant.

But yes if the car is going downhill it's very possible to use the car's motion to generate electricity via wheel alternators.

It's also possible to generate power using a fan but the law of conservation of energy says that too will shorten the battery's charge life by creating drag.

It's the old principle of TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch).

donalson
donalson PowerDork
5/27/13 11:53 a.m.
Maroon92 wrote: If the wheels are already turning, then why would it cause any additional drag to have them generating electricity at speed?

this would be like running at 60mph with your left foot somewhat on the brakes...

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 SuperDork
5/27/13 11:53 a.m.

I used to wonder the same thing. Then I read that of which Cumurdgeon posted.

WilberM3
WilberM3 Dork
5/27/13 11:55 a.m.
Maroon92 wrote: If the wheels are already turning, then why would it cause any additional drag to have them generating electricity at speed? I guess I don't understand the difference in drag between a freewheeling alternator and one under load". As for the fan, I had it in my head as mounting it in the front trunk, and having the low pressure under the car sucking air through the fan blades by use of a "cowl induction" style hood. It's a minimal drag increase with an increase in potential high speed energy recovery.

a loaded alternator is turning a rotor through an electrically charged stator made of electrical windings surrounding it which creates a magnetic field. moving the rotor through the magnetic field induces an electric current that's harnessed as generator output, but physically moving the rotor through a heavily saturated magnetic field takes energy to do so even if it's not visible to the eye, so that's where the losses are found. in regenerative braking that force is big enough to slow down the vehicle.

edit- haha a few mins late

Maroon92
Maroon92 MegaDork
5/27/13 12:00 p.m.

There has to be a point at which a normal forged aluminum wheel would take the same amount of energy to turn as a lighter weight carbon fiber wheel with magnets woven into them, though, right?

By reducing the weight of the wheel, would there be a point at which the efficiency could be managed?

So, if a motor's sole purpose is to turn a high efficiency generator, and the generator's sole purpose is to charge a battery, and the battery's sole purpose is to provide power to the motor, the battery will run out of juice sooner if the generator were operating than not?

In my experiment, however, the motor isn't directly powering the generators. Sure, there is extra drag, and the motor will need to work harder to move the car, but surely it wouldn't have to work four times harder to power four wheel mounted alternators...

NOHOME
NOHOME Dork
5/27/13 12:09 p.m.

There are lots of reasons, some are just societal inertia to new ways of doing things.

There is already a well established alternator industry. As a rule, engineers don't go looking for fixes to what is not broken. Radical new designs attract attention from insurance companies and lawyers.

The proposed design puts the electrics in a dirty environment that would be hard to protect against. I have seen what a winter of driving does to the brake calipers and disc; do I want my alternator in that mess?

The brake mechanism is already there taking up room. You still need some form of conventional braking.

It could get hot in there, especially if some nut-bar wants to take the car on the track.

This adds weight to one corner of the vehicle

The wire transfer is dicey since it must accommodate motion.

I expect that this will cost a lot more to manufacture and to service/replace.

Your choice of aftermarket wheels will drop to none.

People have run alternators off the driveshaft, but it has the same issue that the wheels would: namely that it wont charge when the car is not moving. You would need a bigger heavier battery in order to deal with the possibility of long traffic jams.

Vigo
Vigo UltraDork
5/27/13 12:53 p.m.
By reducing the weight of the wheel, would there be a point at which the efficiency could be managed?

Every type of energy conversion has losses. Therefore, the efficiency gain you get from lightening the wheel, adding that weight back in components to convert motion to electricity, then electricity back to motion to push the car, will actually be LESS of a gain than just lightening the wheel and doing nothing else.

So, if a motor's sole purpose is to turn a high efficiency generator, and the generator's sole purpose is to charge a battery, and the battery's sole purpose is to provide power to the motor, the battery will run out of juice sooner if the generator were operating than not?

It will probably run out sooner than if the motor's sole purpose was to turn the drive wheels. Every component and every conversion between start and finish has something less than 100% efficiency. The more conversions you stick in the middle, the more energy you lose along the way.

In my experiment, however, the motor isn't directly powering the generators. Sure, there is extra drag, and the motor will need to work harder to move the car, but surely it wouldn't have to work four times harder to power four wheel mounted alternators...

The fact that it ISNT directly powering the generators means it is less efficient than if it WAS directly powering the generators. It's not about working 4 times as hard, it's about the idea being a net loss instead of a net benefit. The idea of having them generating electricity any time the car is moving and this somehow benefitting overall efficiency makes it a 'perpetual energy machine' idea, and therefore it cannot possibly work.

If you use the components to only capture energy under braking, then your idea becomes this completely plausible, normal, laudable thing called using a hub motor for regenerative braking. Hub motors are not common, however, and probably never will be, because there is no good reason to add so much unsprung weight to the suspension and subject the motor to every iota of suspension movement rather than mounting the motor inboard and connecting to the hub conventionally with a shaft.

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon MegaDork
5/27/13 1:23 p.m.

On the question of wheel weight, that's not the limiting factor. What limits it is the strength of the magnetic field, i.e. the force necessary to turn the alternator to generate power and losses due to drag/friction.

Here's what I mean: once rolling, an alternator connected to either a heavy wheel or a light wheel will spin only as fast as the car is going, we'll say 50 MPH for the sake of discussion.

If at 50 mph you kick the car in neutral on level ground, a combination of friction and aero drag will slow the car down. Now, if you have an alternator on each hub generating electricity, that's going to help slow the car down even faster because it takes energy to spin through those magnetic fields.

If your car is on a downhill slope, gravity will pull the car down the hill and overcome these forces trying to slow the car down. Basically you are using gravity to generate electricity; think of it as a phase transformation. But once you reach the bottom of the hill and are on flat ground again, aero drag, friction and the energy needed to spin the magnetic fields (which is a form of friction, BTW) will once again sap the car's inertia and it will roll to a stop unless some outside form of energy is introduced into the equation again.

After they are spun up, the heavier wheels will have more inertia and after you reach the bottom of the hill may help extend the roll time on flat ground, but not by a whole lot, in fact the same would be true of kicking it in neutral on flat ground. Lighter wheels will have the opposite effect.

44Dwarf
44Dwarf SuperDork
5/27/13 1:33 p.m.
RossD wrote: You don't get electricity out of your electric radiator fan do you?

Oh yes it can...my rookie year in dwarf racing the car was total loss ignition so no battery car no run...got rear end on a restart and my hand slipped off the shifter and hit the push pull master switch on the dash, the fan kept the motor running although very rough it did run for two laps untill i figured out what had happened.

jeongyun
jeongyun New Reader
5/27/13 1:59 p.m.

The more electricity you draw from an alternator, the harder it is to turn the alternator.

A working alternator isn't free wheeling.

egnorant
egnorant Dork
5/27/13 2:10 p.m.

If you have ever hooked up jumper cables to a dead battery you can hear the alternator putting an extra load on your engine. I had a bad cell on my battery that had my alternator constantly playing catchup. It was costing me about 3 mpg.

It would be neat if the conversion was 1:1! It would act as a direct drive for about anything!

Bruce

curtis73
curtis73 GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
5/27/13 2:22 p.m.
Maroon92 wrote: We all know that "perpetual motion" isn't possible, but why? Now, I'm no scientist, just a curious semi-intelligent human. My theory is that, when using an electric motor to power a car, there are several pieces of the motion pie that can be recovered as electric energy.

Very true, however the short answer to your question is that energy transfer is often highly inefficient. Let's say you have a car with a battery and an electric motor. That electric motor is designed to be an alternator for regenerative braking. Take that car on a 0-100-0 run. Theoretically, perpetual motion would mean you start with X amount of energy stored in the battery, then use 5 units of energy getting up to 100 mph, then get back that 5 units during regenerative braking leaving you with the same X amount of energy stored in the battery. This perpetual motion scenario assumes zero friction on any of the parts of the vehicle; the bearings, the tires, the wind resistance, and also requires that none of the energy transfer be lost as heat. The problem is, after your 0-100-0 run, lay your hand on the motor, or the wires, or the bearings, or any other part of the car and you'll find they are hot. That means some of the energy you used got lost as heat.

In actuality, you expend that 5 units getting to 100 mph. During that process, some of the energy was lost. Of that 5 units you spent getting to 100 mph, only 3 of it was actually used to propel the car. The rest was lost in the wires, the bearings, and wind resistance. Then, during the regenerative phase hauling it back down to zero, you lose another bunch of energy in the same way. In truth, you might spend 5 units getting to 100, but only get 1 unit back. The net result is a loss.

You've seen this in practical every day things like dyno numbers. If you put an engine on a dyno and it makes 150 hp, then put it in the car and measure hp at the wheels, you'll see lower numbers at the wheels because of drivetrain losses. Taking that one step further, measure the actual energy stored in the fuel versus how much energy actually makes it to the crankshaft and you'll find that up to 80% of the energy is lost as heat, sound, and other things.

I think that using each wheel/hub assembly as an alternator could be an efficient way to regenerate wasted energy. Even if it were only at highway speeds, I would think that four relatively efficient wheel alternators would at least assist in regenerating energy lost by exerting the electric motors.

Its a valid idea, but you will spend more energy than you get. Let's say you're on the highway in our theoretical electric car using 5 units of energy per hour maintaining highway speed. Now let's engage the alternators. Driving the alternators might take an additional 2 units per hour (belt friction, bearings, heat, etc), but only provide 1 unit of energy per hour in return. Using electricity to make electricity can never be perpetual motion because of those losses. Even if it were perfect, there would be no benefit. If your alternator drives were 100% efficient (meaning that they provide as much energy as they require to operate) it still wouldn't be a benefit. You would be expending 2 units of energy in order to get 2 units back.

Many people sit and ponder over their alternators. They give the pulley a spin and watch it revolve with little resistance and think its just waiting to be tapped for power. But, put that alternator on the car, spin it to 4000 rpms, energize the field, and turn on your headlights, it is offering a very significant resistance to the belt. In industrial applications, alternators are often rated by the HP required to run it at peak output. The 140A alternator in my Cummins-powered box truck was rated at 17kW which is nearly 23 hp. Converting those numbers, you can see that it requires 17kW for the alternator to produce 2kW of energy.

Also, perhaps manipulating low and high pressure areas of the car, an induction site for a wind powered energy could be built into the design?

Again, no free lunch. A wind turbine (regardless of where its mounted) will add way more drag to the car than the energy it produces. The car is expending X amount of energy to overcome wind drag as it is. Adding drag with a wind turbine will add more drag than the energy it produces.

Why not throw in some solar panels for good measure?

Now you're talking. Unfortunately, there isn't much real estate on a car. At best, you could probably get 100 W from the surfaces of the car on a high-sun day. Since it requires about 30 hp (23,000 W) to maintain highway speed, it wouldn't make much of a dent in power consumption.

In a perfect world, the electric car would certainly get a longer range with minimal weight and cost penalties, right?

Nope You would be compounding the problem... adding weight AND wasting energy.

I love to learn!

I love to teach Use this example. Let's say you have an alternator. Replace the bearings with opposing-pole magnets so there is no bearing friction. Give it a spin while there is no demand on it for energy. Speaking in terms of perpetual motion, it should spin forever, right? Well, unfortunately the spinning parts of the alternator are contacting air molecules, dust particles, and water vapor molecules. Each time they hit one, they transfer a little bit of the inertial energy to those molecules. Eventually, it would stop spinning. So, put it in a vacuum, you say. It would spin much longer. Unfortunately, those magnets you used to replace the bearings are in fact transferring energy. As the magnets pass by each other, the molecules are being moved ever so slightly. This generates heat. In fact, induction hardening is that process. Ever see those new stoves that don't get hot? Instead they use magnets to excite the molecules in the pan.

But, now you have to get energy out of that alternator. So, you energize the field coil and put a load on it, and it would stop instantly. Why? The alternator can only provide energy based on the energy stored in its inertia. Once you place a load on the alternator, the magnetic field takes that rotating energy and starts converting it into electricity. As it extracts energy from the rotation, it slows down. That is why alternators are belt-driven; they need constant energy input to get any energy output.

Here is another example:

Let's say you have a half-pipe like skaters use. You're at the top on one side. Roll a bowling ball down your side. It will roll down, across, and part way up the other side. Why not the whole way up? It has lost energy to friction and sound on its way. Eventually, the ball will make several oscillations and come to rest somewhere in the middle having "lost" all of its kinetic energy to friction.

If perpetual motion were possible, we could have that bowling ball go back and forth from peak to peak forever without stopping. Let's imagine that it can happen. Now let's say you want to use some of that "free" energy that the bowling ball keeps making. Let's say you have one of those frustrating Pistachios that isn't split open. So, place the Pistachio in the path of that bowling ball. Crunch. Bingo. Nutty satisfaction, but now the bowling ball is only going 80% as high as it was before.

In this example, perpetual motion is not only a myth, it doesn't really help anything. In order to get the free lunch, you need better than perpetual motion. You would need to be able to crack that pistachio AND the bowling ball would still be at 100% of its oscillation.

Many times people think that its about lighter or lower-friction materials, but it isn't. The fact remains that losses will occur. You can mitigate those losses with exotic materials, but it still won't be perpetual. Even if you design a system that is 99.999% efficient, that pesky .001% means that its not perpetual.

mr2peak
mr2peak GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
5/27/13 2:50 p.m.

Really guys?

I'm having trouble believing anyone is taking this thread seriously.

I think we're being trolled.

Kenny_McCormic
Kenny_McCormic Dork
5/27/13 2:55 p.m.

In reply to mr2peak:

Some people are really that ignorant of basic Newtonian physics. Trolling would be me making a thread about subatomic particles and whether they're particles or waves.

novaderrik
novaderrik UberDork
5/27/13 4:05 p.m.

anyone that has ever put a thumping stereo system in a car knows that the alternator can drag the engine down a lot when you put a load on it...

if it was as easy as hooking an alternator up to the electric motor to make what amounts to a perpetual motion machine, we would have done that 150 years ago and the idea of using any external power source for pretty much anything would be looked on as just plain silly..

MichaelYount
MichaelYount Reader
5/27/13 4:17 p.m.

"If the wheels are already turning, then why would it cause any additional drag to have them generating electricity at speed?" Perhaps you should run for office. DC is full of politicians that regularly pass laws/regulations based on the kind of thinking demonstrated by the line in quotes.

Regenerative braking should tell you everything you need to know about what happens when you convert momentum into electrical energy. The car stops -- and the batteries have a bit more charge in them.

iceracer
iceracer UberDork
5/27/13 4:46 p.m.
RossD wrote: It doesn't matter where you mount the fan. The engine is moving the car, and subsequently creating the different pressures around the car. The fan would create the pressure drop that the engine would end up paying for in horsepower. Think of an airplane. Would you think to mount a wind turbine at the tail? Maybe right behind the propeller to get all that free wind coming off it? No you wouldn't. At some point the propeller would only be putting in wind power to the turbine and the plane would never move. You would also be making heat and noise and vibrations from the engine and that the turbine would not be able to make power from. You don't get electricity out of your electric radiator fan do you?
iceracer
iceracer UberDork
5/27/13 4:48 p.m.
iceracer wrote:
RossD wrote: It doesn't matter where you mount the fan. The engine is moving the car, and subsequently creating the different pressures around the car. The fan would create the pressure drop that the engine would end up paying for in horsepower. Think of an airplane. Would you think to mount a wind turbine at the tail? Maybe right behind the propeller to get all that free wind coming off it? No you wouldn't. At some point the propeller would only be putting in wind power to the turbine and the plane would never move. You would also be making heat and noise and vibrations from the engine and that the turbine would not be able to make power from. You don't get electricity out of your electric radiator fan do you?

They used to mount an air driven generator under the fuselage on airplanes. Now they let the engine do it.

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