The track time issue really comes down to what you are looking to get out of the sport. Legendary drag racers like Don Garlits spend their careers trying to reduce their track time to less than five seconds. A really intense five seconds, maybe four if things go well.
Usain Bolt, the Olympic champion sprinter, has trained his entire life to run for less than ten seconds. Quicker than anyone. Do you think he feels short-changed compared to the marathon runners who get two hours of "track time"?
Good point about drag racers. An intense few seconds followed by hours getting ready to do it again.
wvumtnbkr wrote: What i am hearing is that autocrossers would go W2W if it wasn't for money.
I'd be doing a lot of things, if money wasn't an issue. When I can afford to spend $1000/weekend to "play", I'm there. Good people make hobbies fun, be it cars, planes, making beer, or needlepoint.
Absolutely agree with David. I made friends in the sixties at autoslaloms that I still see. I compete and my children compete and their children compete and we all have good friends that we would never have met any other way.
PS. Autoslalom antique Canadiana meaning AutoX
Eh. I started with auto-x for many of the reasons listed here. It was cheap. The site, while over an hour from my house, was closer than the track. I didn't want to risk my sole car on the track.
Eventually though, getting a few minutes of track time for spending 10 hours at the site just wore me out. I've since moved and have three tracks within 2 hours of me. I'd much rather go to the track and get several hours of track time for the same amount of time away from the family.
I've found, at least in my case, that I'm not spending a whole lot more on the car doing time trials than I was doing auto-x. Ultimate costs are similar as well, although I'm an instructor for the track organization, which helps a lot in that regard.
I can see the positives of auto-x, but for me, the negatives outweighed them by quite a bit, especially since the alternatives are so much better.
David, Glad to hear that for you it's the camaraderie. But for me (and only me) Auto X seemed very poor value for the time spent.
So, I switched to trackdays and then to Lemons/Chumpcar/World Racing League. They also have that camaraderie thing.
Auto X is about those little bursts of intense ten tenths concentration that you can't sustain during track time or road racing. I like it for that, the camaraderie is a bonus. That's why I keep coming back. It's great that there are so many ways to play that we can all find our niche. Happy New Year to All. 
Come to think of it I used to ride a bus for 8 hours so my youngest son could race for 25 seconds in a 50 metre free style swim. Talk about down time.
wvumtnbkr wrote: I would argue that the prepared cars that autocross (that are trailered) cost the the same or MORE than me racing my old rx7 around a track.
I still know a lot of autocrossers, and most of them are in SP, P, and M classes. I know for a fact that their autocross cars (which are not cheap beaters), and their 10" wide wheels and giant hoosiers, custom valved coilovers and camber plates, etc etc. cost a hell of a lot more than everything we've spent on an e30 chump car with full safety gear and cage. Sure, events cost more. But really for a Chump race I get 2-3 hours of seat time for $400 or so vs. 3 runs for $40 at an autocross. So the cost is all relative I guess.
But in addition to driving wheel to wheel, I also crew for teams (chump, SCCA enduro, and stage rally) - which is totally free if you're just looking for the social aspect :) In fact, for our non-driving crew, we cover all their expenses - so essentially they get a free race weekend in exchange mostly for just helping to unload the gear and set up pits for a couple hours.
You can't say that auto-xing a prepped car is cheaper or the same as W2W. The entry fee for a day of auto-x is, what $25? What did your last track day cost, or the entry fee for any W2W competition?
I looked into LeMons and Chump car. A couple grand just to hit the track? Not knocking it, but it's cost-prohibitive to many of us.
DrBoost wrote: You can't say that auto-xing a prepped car is cheaper or the same as W2W. The entry fee for a day of auto-x is, what $25? What did your last track day cost, or the entry fee for any W2W competition? I looked into LeMons and Chump car. A couple grand just to hit the track? Not knocking it, but it's cost-prohibitive to many of us.
A couple grand? Are you racing by yourself? Our Chump team usually has 4-5 drivers splitting costs. I think our last one at VIR (where I got 3 hours of driving time) I paid about $400 for my share of entry fees, tires, brake pads, and gas.
They key is to get on a team where someone else owns the car and pays for the safety gear
But in terms of the car itself, here I'll compare:
My friend's ESP WRX: Cost $25k new. Upgraded turbo. Custom coilovers. 18x9 wheels. Giant hoosiers. Every suspension thing possible. He probably has $40k in the build to be reasonably competitive.
Our Chump e30 cost like $1k. $1500 for a cage. $1000 for seat/harness. $1000 for HANS and other safety gear. Maybe $2k in other things. We're racing wheel to wheel in a car that cost probably $6-7k to put together, and then maybe $10k per year total to run 5-6 races. And that car is competitive and frequently finishes in the top 15-20.
Sure, you could buy a $1k beater and autocross it to for a lot cheaper. But old cars in near-stock form aren't generally competitive in autocross.
I think the point though is that it's all relative. A season of autocross locally here (WDCR) runs about $500-600 for let's say 10 events. So in a season, you're getting maybe an hour of seat time for that $500-600. Run one Chump race and assuming you're paying rental fees + expenses, you're probably looking at $500-600 as well, but getting 3-4 hours on the track.
I'm certainly not loaded with cash by any means. I run 2-3 Chump races per year (all fairly "local" ones) because it's all I can afford. The rest of my team runs 6-7 per year, and will go much farther. They're single guys who live in cheap houses, so they can afford it
Southern California SCCA events are run at event locations that provide runs north of 70 seconds. The elements are never the same. Yes, the surface at Qualcom is looong in the tooth. But the elevation change is something to experience.
Practice events on Saturday provide 12 runs. Sunday is four, with only a half day requirement of my time.
I got hooked on this based first on how much it cost. In college, 1981, I purchased a 1964 EP Sprite for $500, 1968 Ford Wagon for $250 and borrowed a trailer. I paid for my events, along with my girlfriend, then would sell two slots to friends. The trip from Chico to Sacramento and back cost me less than $50. The old Goodyear Blue streak tires would not ware out, the car did not weigh enough. The tubes I could patch, we ran a place called Splinter City.
Today I drive an older car, shared with my kids or friends and instruct. But now that the oldest two have graduated for college and live out of the area I have signed up for the VARA University at Buttonwillow.
But now I have to bring a second set of tires, start with a fresh set of front brakes and learn to shift beyond second gear. Thank god I am willing to go back to school! Wish I still had that 429 Ford wagon. With a two barrel carb I got over 15mpg.
I forgot one negative: I have to deal with evildky. That guy is a shiny happy person.
Personally, The cost of AutoX is pretty low compare to prepping the car. I using a 04 P71 that's a Rolling Backup for the Taxi. Plus the people in the club are very cool to hang with.
I'm just glad you guys had good regions! I have a lot I'd friend from my autocross days, but damned if it wasn't like being with high school girls at the meetings and sometimes the events with the amount of drama!
We're running local events here, guys, not nationals! No one else cares if he removed the manufacturers badges, it's not enough weight savings to matter.
That said, there's a non-scca group up here in my new state that seems pretty relaxed, but I'm one of those snooty track day people now..
irish44j wrote:DrBoost wrote: You can't say that auto-xing a prepped car is cheaper or the same as W2W. The entry fee for a day of auto-x is, what $25? What did your last track day cost, or the entry fee for any W2W competition? I looked into LeMons and Chump car. A couple grand just to hit the track? Not knocking it, but it's cost-prohibitive to many of us.A couple grand? Are you racing by yourself? Our Chump team usually has 4-5 drivers splitting costs. I think our last one at VIR (where I got 3 hours of driving time) I paid about $400 for my share of entry fees, tires, brake pads, and gas. They key is to get on a team where someone else owns the car and pays for the safety gear
I sat down and ran the numbers with 4 other people. The car was already owned, so that cost was out. Prepping the car, buying personal safety gear, and the first entry fee was over a grand if I went with the cheapest safety gear possible. I backed out, others pressed on. The car prep was more expensive than they thought it was going to be. If I'd have stayed in it'd have approached $2,000 just to watch the car crash out very early in the first event. So for me, just under $2,000 to spectate.
At that point my next option would be to wait 'till next year for that race to come around again, or travel to the next race, adding a few hundred in entry fees, food, fuel, and lodging. So now we're at $3,000+ to maybe get some wheel time.
Again, I'm not knocking W2W, but the cost is so high.
Irish - you're comparing low level racing to high-level autox build.
You can buy an ST* Civic, CRX, or even NA Miata, fully prepped and ready to win @ nationals for $5k or less. You can run an entire "season" locally for probably $500 - $1000 (including consumables). You can also drive the car to work on Monday.
Also, the competition is different between Autox and LeChump. One is a team endurance race where reliability, strategy, and consistency pay off (as well as speed), one is a solo 60 second sprint.
They are both a ton of fun. Autox is certainly a much cheaper form of racing.
Despite the thread title, this thread wasn't actually about seat time...
Not about seat time I agree. Some of the comments lead me to the conclusion that a 2 hour movie must be better than an hour and half version, but not as good as a three hour version. Expressed in terms of dollars per minute of seat time.
DILYSI Dave wrote: Despite the thread title, this thread wasn't actually about seat time...
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.
David S. Wallens wrote:DILYSI Dave wrote: Despite the thread title, this thread wasn't actually about seat time...Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.
If you could repeat that when my submission in the shop contest comes up in the selection meeting, I'd appreciate it. :)
I think the thread is a natural progression. Many times when talking about auto-x w2w also comes up. Then cost inevitably comes up.
The answer to the question, for me, goes back to bang for the buck. I'm not doing it to meet friends.
It seems every thread about autocross on this forum turns into a cost/seat-time whine-fest.
I don't do autocross for seat time. I do it for the competition. Get it done in three runs.
People are definitely part of it for me. I enjoyed my first year more than any other. We did a number of events at a venue where there was a pub close by and a bunch of us would go afterwards there to bench-race and have dinner. That was fun. Unfortunately, the venue most events are held at now have strict rules against alcohol, so pretty much when the event is done everyone splits. It didn't used to be that way, but that was before my time.
Racing is great, rallying is great, autocross is great, car shows are great, auctions are great, even shop competitions are great. They all are, or should be, a way to relax an get away from the day to day and recharge our mental and often physical batteries. They also generally increase our knowledge & on occasion make us safer drivers.
I consider any activity that encourages people to look out their windshield. To be more interested in their ride than the phone they should have turned off. Or at least to actually realize there is a world outside of work & texting, to be a good thing.
What specific segment of motorsports works for me, isn't really your concern & vice-versa. There are likely a lot more things we have in common than those we don't. Let's agree to disagree.
As with all forms of motosports, it's the people you show up for. I do track days, road race and autocross. I've started autocrossing regular again; I used to run regularly but when my son started running a Jr Kart (he was 8) I didn't have a good way to bring his Kart and the Datsun, plus I wanted to focus on keeping him safe. Safety was a prime reason for taking him autocrossing, I wanted him to have car control skills and I think every kid should do some autocrossing as matter of safety. There would likely be fewer teens crashing cars. He stopped running the kart when he was 16 and I started going to the occasional event but frankly, in the Datsun, the sense of speed just wasn't there and the fact that in the 8 years since I ran regularly new cars had moved on to the point that it was hard to run in the top 15-20 cars with the Datsun. Enter a drive in a Formula 500, this went fast enough to be exciting and I was in the running for FTD. I have a love hate relationship with single seat racing cars, while I do my own wrenchin, I do not particularly enjoy it. As an autocross car the F500 doesn't need near the prep time it would as a road race car given it's being run six minutes a day. So for me autocross offers up a chance to drive a fast car without the bills and the hours of wrenching. Finally we take almost every newly purchased car to at least one autocross, this allows us to find it's limits, which comes in handy when mixing it up with all those car appliance people on the daily commute.
Tom
Autocross is about a lot more than just seat time. To me it's like a cool car show, but you actually get to watch people slide cars around instead of just staring at them with the hood propped up. I like to watch and work the course almost as much as I like to drive. And it is not fair to compare the seat time with a stop watch and declare a winner. If so, my commute wins hands down. At an HPDE, you get a lot of track time. But hopefully, most of your session is not on the ragged edge. You need to worry about keeping on the track, other cars, and conserving your car. Maybe a couple times per track day, you are actually at the car's limit. At an autocross, you may only get 3 minutes on the track- but you can spend every second of those three minutes at the limits of yourself and your car. And you can go beyond, without worry of damage or injury.
I race WTW and Autocross and love them both I find Autocross hones my road racing skills and road racing helps me autocross. I have a bunch more money in my autocross car than the road race car, but once you have the gear (trailers tools ect.) it's not to bad expense wise.
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