red_stapler said:Why isn’t the GTI the leading contender here?
I posted about it earlier but I guess it's too boring.When I got mine it was really the only thing out there that "checked all the boxes" coming out of a WRX but wanting better fuel economy, at least for me.
I'd also tend to wonder why the WRX hasn't been mentioned, for that matter, other than it being a bit more expensive.
red_stapler said:Why isn’t the GTI the leading contender here?
Modern volkswagens are bahn burners. They're not the riot rocket the ms3 was. Too refined.
Because the average person doesn't care about buying a car like that so many manufacturers don't make them.
I just looked up C&D tests, current GTI is basically the same weight and 1/4 mile ET and MPH. It's also more spacious and has way nicer interior. So GTI with an exhaust and tune or some other mild mods to strip away some refinement?
Veloster N is definitely quicker but I think the usable space is less. Seems like a compelling option a bit cheaper than CTR Anand Golf R.
I had to look up some pics to figure out what is meant by a GTI having a 'way nicer interior', but then i remembered that probably only seems weird to me because the first gen Mazda3 was one of my favorite interiors out of the ones i've owned. A GTI is probably objectively better. I do have a pretty nice VW interior in my Cayenne.
Mndsm said:red_stapler said:Why isn’t the GTI the leading contender here?
Modern volkswagens are bahn burners. They're not the riot rocket the ms3 was. Too refined
That is what sets the GTi above the others. It is refined and still performs.
Having owned a gen 2 MS3 I went for a Focus ST brand new for $20k 16 months ago. It has been everything I loved about the MS3, power torque and extremely practical but also able to run on 87 when I want to pinch pennies and it's a better autox car. But if I could do it over I'd buy a GTi with a diff.
The speed 3 is unruly because of the nature of the diff and the drivetrain. It wore off for me quickly... especially when driven in anger and I started turning consumables into dust.
Focus ST has a bit more hp and tq, slightly lower weight than the MS3 and there are 11 of them on Autotrader for under $27k brand new (2 under $20k!). The Ecoboost is even an evolution of the Duratec/DISI that the MS3 had. It really seems like the easy button to me in price, character, and DNA.
Vigo said:I do have a pretty nice VW interior in my Cayenne.
I see what you did there. ;-)
irish44j said:red_stapler said:Why isn’t the GTI the leading contender here?
I posted about it earlier but I guess it's too boring.When I got mine it was really the only thing out there that "checked all the boxes" coming out of a WRX but wanting better fuel economy, at least for me.
I'd also tend to wonder why the WRX hasn't been mentioned, for that matter, other than it being a bit more expensive.
Lack of having a hatch option for 2015+ cars could be why.
Vigo said:I had to look up some pics to figure out what is meant by a GTI having a 'way nicer interior', but then i remembered that probably only seems weird to me because the first gen Mazda3 was one of my favorite interiors out of the ones i've owned. A GTI is probably objectively better. I do have a pretty nice VW interior in my Cayenne.
Fair enough, we had a 2012 Mazda3 for five years and it was pretty nice inside. The various displays were all different with different fonts etc and I didn't like that, and some of the materials were below current GTI quality. Pic below shows the two different screens above the center vents. Current Mazda interiors are great and I think only the superior vw infotainment puts them ahead.
I just drove a Veloster N the other week and was astounded at how fun and useable that car is. Reminds me of a Fiesta ST but with a bit more room. The rear 3rd door is terrible though as it has a good amount of room in the rear passenger area and even in the cargo area in back. If you could get past the door and the stupid red trim exterior panels id say go test drive one. Very fun car and has a good amount of power in even the non-performance pack variant. The performance pack version was even faster and the diff was great.
I also drove a Elantra GT Sport and that was about as perfect as i could find in a 4 door hatchback with performance aspirations. Its not a "hot" hatch per say but has plenty of go when needed and still offers a 6 speed. Its not MS3 fast but it ticked all the right boxes and with the N-line looks reminds me of a GTI. A fun car that is more useable in day to day situations than the Veloster N. If they added the N version to the Elantra i wouldnt be driving a Fiesta ST anymore. It would be THE perfect car.
Vigo said:I had to look up some pics to figure out what is meant by a GTI having a 'way nicer interior', but then i remembered that probably only seems weird to me because the first gen Mazda3 was one of my favorite interiors out of the ones i've owned. A GTI is probably objectively better. I do have a pretty nice VW interior in my Cayenne.
I must be getting old, interior quality is high on my priority list, and I haven't seen a newish Mazda that didn't feel cheap and shoddy. They feel cheap and wear rapidly.
GTIs sound like a nice idea but they feel really artificial. And it would have to be a DSG because the direct injected 2-liter's throttle programming seems to actively hinder you from driving smoothly.
aw614 said:irish44j said:red_stapler said:Why isn’t the GTI the leading contender here?
I posted about it earlier but I guess it's too boring.When I got mine it was really the only thing out there that "checked all the boxes" coming out of a WRX but wanting better fuel economy, at least for me.
I'd also tend to wonder why the WRX hasn't been mentioned, for that matter, other than it being a bit more expensive.
Lack of having a hatch option for 2015+ cars could be why.
ah right, didn't even think about that. I was looking at the sedans so totally forgot.
Knurled. said:Vigo said:I had to look up some pics to figure out what is meant by a GTI having a 'way nicer interior', but then i remembered that probably only seems weird to me because the first gen Mazda3 was one of my favorite interiors out of the ones i've owned. A GTI is probably objectively better. I do have a pretty nice VW interior in my Cayenne.
I must be getting old, interior quality is high on my priority list, and I haven't seen a newish Mazda that didn't feel cheap and shoddy. They feel cheap and wear rapidly.
GTIs sound like a nice idea but they feel really artificial. And it would have to be a DSG because the direct injected 2-liter's throttle programming seems to actively hinder you from driving smoothly.
Maybe it's just your driving. I have no problem driving smoothly with the 6MT. It's lightyears smoother than my WRX was (admittedly, not a high bar). The only thing that's hard to do really smooth in the GTI is braking, since the SE brakes (same as the Golf R) are pretty touchy and pretty excessive for a car this size. The blow away anything I've ever owned in terms of sheer stopping power.
I'm not a VW fanboi by any means, but objectively the GTI it has a really, really nice interior (and even nicer for the price range), with a lot of really nice features. I always loved my WRX seats and was sad to change cars for that reason, but I've found the GTI seats are even better. IDK, just gotta go try it yourself and see what you think. Interior "niceness" is all subjective.
Knurled. said:Vigo said:I had to look up some pics to figure out what is meant by a GTI having a 'way nicer interior', but then i remembered that probably only seems weird to me because the first gen Mazda3 was one of my favorite interiors out of the ones i've owned. A GTI is probably objectively better. I do have a pretty nice VW interior in my Cayenne.
I must be getting old, interior quality is high on my priority list, and I haven't seen a newish Mazda that didn't feel cheap and shoddy. They feel cheap and wear rapidly.
GTIs sound like a nice idea but they feel really artificial. And it would have to be a DSG because the direct injected 2-liter's throttle programming seems to actively hinder you from driving smoothly.
Have you been in a Mazda after MY2013? All the cars with the Kodo design language have markedly improved interiors. I still think the MK7 GTI is a step ahead in terms of overall interior quality/design, but the newer Mazdas are nothing to scoff at.
I had a MK7 GTI SE for 2 years and I think you nailed it. Obviously we are talking about how the car feels to drive so in many ways that is subjective, but it did feel a bit artificial and disconnected.
BMW 230i?
MTechnically said:Knurled. said:Vigo said:I had to look up some pics to figure out what is meant by a GTI having a 'way nicer interior', but then i remembered that probably only seems weird to me because the first gen Mazda3 was one of my favorite interiors out of the ones i've owned. A GTI is probably objectively better. I do have a pretty nice VW interior in my Cayenne.
I must be getting old, interior quality is high on my priority list, and I haven't seen a newish Mazda that didn't feel cheap and shoddy. They feel cheap and wear rapidly.
GTIs sound like a nice idea but they feel really artificial. And it would have to be a DSG because the direct injected 2-liter's throttle programming seems to actively hinder you from driving smoothly.
Have you been in a Mazda after MY2013? All the cars with the Kodo design language have markedly improved interiors. I still think the MK7 GTI is a step ahead in terms of overall interior quality/design, but the newer Mazdas are nothing to scoff at.
I had a MK7 GTI SE for 2 years and I think you nailed it. Obviously we are talking about how the car feels to drive so in many ways that is subjective, but it did feel a bit artificial and disconnected.
Mazda made interior refinement a goal a couple of years back. I don't know if it was as far back as 2013, but I know the 2016.5 CX5 was a big step up from the earlier ones.
^Agreed. The interior in the top trim level '15 Mazda 6 my ex-wife has, I thought was a pretty nice place to spend time.
I'll have to reserve judgement on the '15-up cars until I experience one, then.
Josh, the "can't drive smoothly" the Nissan-like ability to hang at, say, 5000rpm after you let off to shift. This is nothing new to drive by wire VWs, as a friend has a VR6 Jetta with drive by wire and he was telling me, as we drove somewhere, that he was letting off the throttle about two seconds before he disengaged the clutch to shift.
For the last seven years, my manual transmission car has been a rotary that was Megasquirted on ITBs, with a nine pound flywheel, so I'm a touch biased toward the "razor sharp" end of the drivability stick.
No clue what he means. Maybe your friend can't drive? ;) I certainly have not noticed any need to let off the throttle early between high-rpm shifts. I can shift it just as quickly up or down high in the range as I could in my WRX or in my Maxima before that (both M/T also). The only car i own that needs to be shifted substantially slower is the 924, and that's because the linkage is 25 feet long......or so it feels.
Obviously DBW will never have the immediate feel of a physical linkage, but the GTI's programming doesn't really feel any different from any other sporty cars I've driven in recent years with DBW. YMMV
I will note that how much revs "hang" seems to be somewhat different depending on if you have it set in the "sport" "normal" or "eco "modes. At least that was my initial impression when I got the car. But I haven't tried "normal" or "eco" modes since that first day, lol.
Wow I find the change of pace interesting. To me, it seems like people talk a fair amount of smack about the MS3 here.
I'm pretty sure most people go with the Focus ST to replace the 'speed3, despite the fact that it lacks a bit of power and the true LSD. You can get one for cheap these days from what I hear. I like the Veloster N on paper, but I still don't fully trust their products, especially when C & D had some issues with the brakes during their test drive.
The next MS3 is probably two years away if it even happens, and will not be $27k, that's for certain.
If I were you, I'd just keep the car! You love it, why ditch it just because you have autoADD? In my experience, autoADD will never stop.
I can tell you from very recent (like 5 days ago recent) that Ford is offering some huge rebates right now on new cars. We picked up the Fiesta for a bottom line that was 2K under the sticker price, around $4200 in rebates and discounts.
Two things:
-My regular 2012 Mazda 3 is on it's 3rd transmission mount and 2nd rear motor mount. It has just over 175k on it. Somehow, the liquid filled P/S motor mount is still good. Like others have said, MZR-equipped vehicles eat motor mounts.
-The Focus ST really is a good match for the MS3, save for the LSD. A friend has a 2013 ST3 with a Ford Racing factory tune, and it is pretty quick. It feels faster to me than another friend's old 2008 MS3 that had a "stage 1" tune. The ST had instant torque and lots of it. I didn't like the cramped interior or the shifter as much as the old MS3 or even my 2012 regular 3, so YMMV.
With the MS3 AND the ST now out of the picture, I really hope someone else steps up to the plate with some cheap 250+hp hatchback performance. Hyundai seems to be answering the call with the Veloster N, but time will tell.
Tony Sestito saidWith the MS3 AND the ST now out of the picture, I really hope someone else steps up to the plate with some cheap 250+hp hatchback performance. Hyundai seems to be answering the call with the Veloster N, but time will tell.
I'm really not sure why people are getting hung up on an arbitrary number like 250. Most of the cars in this segment are turbo anyway so extra horsepower is literally as easy as paying for a chip or tune.
Then you have other things to consider as well. You're acting as if the focus ST is "fast enough" because 252hp. But then the GTI is totally ignored due to "only" 227hp. I will let you take a guess at which of the two is actually quicker and things like the quarter mile (hint: the one with LSD).
It's kind of interesting and because until I owned one I would have never said anything nice about a GTI or any Volkswagen in general. I generally considered them to be subpar performers, based on whatever biases I used to have (WRX owner.....). So it is kind of interesting hearing several of you here basically saying the exact same things that I would have said a year ago. Something something something about GTI being refined but a level below the other hot hatches in performance. When the truth is that in every objective measure the GT is pretty much better than most of the other hot hatches in performance, including the FoST. I will totally agree it's refinement makes it not feel as fast though, so if somebody is looking for a car that actually feels fast the GTI is probably not the answer.
The Mazdaspeed 3 just like earlier wrx's, was actually fast as hell especially for its time (and really, still) But it felt even faster because it was not a very refined car, also like the WRX. I suspect if Mazda came out with a new speed 3, they would probably refine it a lot more and people would not love it as much due to the lack of rawness. IDK. I feel like the manufacturers are less interested in making cheap feeling but super fast cars these days. There's a lot more profit in refinement features than there is any adding horsepower.
I will say that I cannot believe that any of these manufacturers would make a front-wheel drive car with high horsepower and not put an actual LSD on it. Especially when they are competing against the all wheel drive cars that have an inherent traction edge already. I wonder if the focus ST would have survived a lot longer if it had a real diff. But that also brings at the point of "what if Mazda brings out a new speed 3 and just gives it an Abs based e-diff?" Once you do that all the horsepower in the world doesn't matter.
To me, what really interests me about the Focus St is the price, they are an incredible bargain at what, less than 20k out the door. I mean, that's just crazy. You have to spend a LOT more to get a GTI or Veloster or WRX. Oh, and the fact that they are competitive in their autocross class despite their shortcomings is another selling point. It's a good chassis, even in non-ST guise. The biggest knock to me is that it feels cramped, and doesn't have a real diff.
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