Why not the dealer?

markwemple wrote: Between the cost and the fact that many techs at dealers are fresh out of school, I'd rather use an independent. I look for techs that can honestly repair and don't just throw new parts at a car.

My experience at the dealership level suggests that "repair" is a foreign concept, diagnosis takes time that you aren't getting paid for, it takes less time to throw parts at it, and if you throw enough parts at it, it gets fixed right the first time.

Things may have changed since then, different companies have different policies, YMMV. But it did seem that the dealership attracted relatively incompetent parts-hangers who were after a fat check, and the atmosphere bred that mentality.

In reply to alfadriver:

I agree manufacturers have it somewhat difficult because it seems they don't have as much control over their dealers as the general public would like to believe. I know some of my MINI friends have had some luck getting things fixed by calling and complaining to the MINI USA corporate office, but not always. And with MINI we have some advantage in the NJ/PA area because MINI USA is based in NJ and can keep a closer watch on nearby dealers.

If we're discussing Lincoln, I've been of the opinion for some time that the average Ford product is so close to "mid-luxury" anymore that it's hard to justify paying a premium for what is essentially the same car with a different badge. Especially when they are often parked right next to each other at the same dealer.

When first made 100 years ago, Lincolns were some of the best cars you could buy. They were expensive and they didn't make very many of them. IMHO, that is the market they should go after. Forget competing with the Germans and Japanese - it's too crowded. Jump over that market and go after the Brits (Rolls and Bentley). Right now there is no USA-made car that competes in the "bespoke" market.

Of course, the big downside is this plan would require considerable investment in both product and dealer network (which would absolutely need to be stand-alone and separate from any Ford dealership). On the plus side, a dealership like that would give them a more appropriate outlet for super-cars such as the GT.

Keith, yeah the Porsche dealer charges an hours labor, plus 10 quarts of synthetic, plus filter. So $250. That's why I do it myself.

Anything I don't care to do, they do tho. The tech is fabulous and actually owns my same car and the service writer is a friend of mine who's also in the PCA with me.

The last time I went to the dealer was 1992. My '89 Mustang's 5 speed bad at 70K. I took it to the dealer to be fixed under warranty. They rebuilt it instead of changing it. It took a week but it came back perfect and washed and waxed.

The transmission died again at 70K. I changed it myself. After that I never bought any vehicle with anything but the 30 day warranty. That way I won't be tempted to let someone else do it. I have indi shops do wheel bearings because I still don't have a press, but that will end when I get a bigger garage.

I can't stand the arrogance combined with a bit of stupidity at my local Porsche dealer so I use my local tech or Mike Levitas. Better work and better prices and less bs and NO arrogance. I've put my PCA membership in hiatus for this reason. I'd rather hang with my SCCA brethren any day.

Ah yes. I remember when the "back shop" was something a dealer had to put up with. Then some realized that they could make money back there. My Ford dealer is enlarging his service area, almost double.

I remember a Buick dealer who didn't retail used cars.

My how things have changed.

Lets see, the last two times I tried to use a dealership for repairs:

1. Chevy dealer- quoted a repair price that was close to three times greater than that of an independent shop

2. Chrysler dealer- was told they would not work on the vehicle because I had worked on it previously- for liability reasons. Issue was front brakes. Local shop helped me out- a brake pad was hanging up in the caliper.

Left me feeling dealerships can suck it.

Knurled wrote: Bu my word... $175/hour at Audi? No wonder when we recently gave a maintenance quote for an A4 at $2500-ish, we were told "Oh wow you are a lot cheaper than the dealer!"

Well, this is in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is not a cheap place to live...

For the first time ever I took one of our cars to the dealer to get something looked at and I will never do it again unless we get a new one at some point.

I have been fighting a miss fire on our R class. I was told that it may only be still happening because the ECU does not believe the issue was fixed and it needed to be told so. A friend of ours works for Mercedes NA and he said he would set me up with an appointment at a local dealer and that they would "take care of me".

I dropped the car off, explained what was happening and what I had already done and hoped for the best. The service writer emails me what they found and I about had a heart attack. The tech said that the intake manifold was leaking, almost $2100 to fix. The part from MB is expensive so I was not shocked too much at that but almost $500 to replace the 6 spark plugs and a bunch of other stuff I could not get my head around.

I should have just taken it to the indi guy I had used before. He is great and likes to talk cars and does little things without charging for them.

Bottom line is never again if I have a choice.

I've taken one of our BMWs to the dealer a few times. They are pretty conveniently located near us. I don't have an independent nearby that really charges much less after I get the discount from the dealer.

The first thing I do after I get the quote from the dealer is dismiss all the upsell stuff that they try to claim I could use and just focus on what was actually broken and possibly any ancillary parts that MAYBE might need to be replaced as well. A good way to handle this if you aren't really aware of which parts affect what (not really a problem for most people on here) is to ask them what you need to have fixed to drive the car away from their shop without issue.

Once I boil it down to that I then ask for a 15% discount off the top, which they always give me.

At this point I've become confident enough to just do most jobs myself, but there are times I don't have the equipment or time to do it. I'd probably consider using this dealer for our current BMW for some of those items.

That said, this experience is particular to this dealer. There are other dealers I would never go to again because they just tried to outright berkeley me on something or lied overtly to try and overcharge me.

I avoid a dealer for repair services unless the car is still under warranty. Consequently, I haven't been to a dealer in several years. Here are the cliff's notes version of problems I've had:

1. Dealers often worn't work on older cars anyway, even if it is simple repair.

2. Dealers don't deliver what was promised and give you the run around on routine maintenance.

3. Dealers have started charging "diagnostic fees" so you have to pay them for nothing regardless if they can actually identify the issue and/or fix it.

Item 3 is an absolute deal breaker for me. No, I'm not going to pay you somewhere between $100-$200 to take a look at the car and give me an estimate on what you think it's going to cost. Heaven help you in they don't get it right the first time or you need to get a second opinion/estimate. We all know they didn't "diagnose" E36 M3. Some kid just pulled the car around back and somebody decided to throw part X at it. Suffice it to say, I have not felt I received service commensurate with the cost of these diagnostic fees in the past.

WilD wrote: 3. Dealers have started charging "diagnostic fees" so you have to pay them for nothing regardless if they can actually identify the issue and/or fix it. Item 3 is an absolute deal breaker for me. No, I'm not going to pay you somewhere between $100-$200 to take a look at the car and give me an estimate on what you think it's going to cost.

I'm curious, why is this?

I mean, if I could tell you what was wrong with your car, without spending any time (labor hours) looking at it, which usually involves a lot of not-inexpensive equipment that needs to not only amortize its purchase, but also its regular updates... as well as my own cache of equipment that is paid for out of MY pocket (that new Power Probe IV is near $400, but DANG after using one, it's on my shortlist)...

If I didn't need any of that, or the labor hours, just an off the cuff Hunch that was right 100% of the time, I wouldn't be working on cars somewhere, I'd have a fat military contract calling out just-in-time maintenance and repair.

But jeez, the tool guy tells me the freebie crystal ball is on backorder, so I'll just have to do it the old fashioned way, which isn't cheap.

Any place that gives diagnostic away for free is either padding the bill to compensate anyway, or they are just shotgunning parts.

My Mazda 6 literally never saw a Mazda dealer. It was delivered straight from the AutoAlliance assembly plant by the dealer (a corporate fleet dealer who can get all brands) straight to my house. It never needed warranty work. In 7 years of ownership all it needed was oil changes and a set of brakes. (although when I sold it it was due for a timing belt, serpentine belt, and clutch, which is sort of why I sold it).

The BMW dealers around here are incompetent crooks and there are great independent BMW specialists. Why would I go to the dealer which is less convenient, less experienced, and more expensive?

In reply to Knurled:

Come on, you know the computer just tells techs what is wrong when you plug it in. Just ask any customer or dealer principle. Or autozone.

Another example of price: I need some splash guards for my 4Runner. I priced them at the dealer, and it's going to be in excess of $120 for them. These are floppy rubber items. My solution is going to be to cut them out of a big rig mud flap or Rubbermaid garbage can and call it done, since their entire purpose is just to keep water and mud out of the engine bay.

Do dealers ever take appointments seriously?

My wife has had an app at the dealer for a certain time today that she has had for over a week. She has been there two and a half hours and they still haven't touched the car. I'm pretty sure in any other business that would be totally unacceptable. Doctors and dentists don't do this, lawyers and accountants don't. But dealerships think nothing of it, like it's just normal business practice. Sure we have you down for two o'clock next Thursday, becomes we'll get to you when we can once you're there.

Plus they are saying even though we still are under the five year 60K mile warranty that a repair for the airbag light being on will not be covered.

I say dealers are lucky we don't burn their buildings down.

Ridiculous.

Ok, here's my case to prove my point...

Recently the hood cable broke on my E36 M3. Despite all my efforts to get the hood open, I could only get the drivers side pin to release. Ok, fine, off to the indy. I have a trailer now, so I went and got the trailer, loaded the car up and dropped it off. That way my wife or friend wouldn't have to follow me there and take me home.

Went and picked the car up last night, again with the trailer. Got there and the shop charged me book time for the job, which was a rather shocking 3.8 hours. This despite the fact I'd already taken everything off for access for them and had popped one of the pins. I doubt it took them more than an hour to do the work and probably took them less than that as all they had to do was pop the passenger pin then attach the new cable to the old one and pull it through.

I'm actually a little irked about that, as they'd told me 1-2 hours initially. When he told me the book time and showed it to me, I just said to charge me what he felt was fair. So he charged me book time. Awesome.

So, I paid basically the same as the dealer but had to go get my trailer, load the car, drop it off. Go get the trailer again, go pick up the car, load it, drop it at my house, then drop the trailer off again.

All to pay basically the same as the dealer, who would've sent me home in a nice, new BMW to use for a few days so I wouldn't have had to do the trailer dance.

Granted YMMV depending on where you live in the country as per labor rates, whether your indy charges "real" time vs book time and how competent your dealers are. Around me the dealers are good, the indy's charge almost the same labor rate and everyone charges book time.

Usually you have to buy the car from the dealer to get a loaner, but it is a nice convenience and since I always get them to give me a 15% discount it doesn't amount to much more than an independent and honestly some independents might be good mechanics, but a large portion of them are terrible businessmen.

Costs and trust.

1. Every dealer I try seems to want to book me for the price of their loss leader they have on the front lot.
2. Trust. Yes I know you have access to all the manuals and someone in the shop has been trained by the factory, but I have seen trained monkeys throw E36 M3 at their handlers too. Is the ASE Master Mechanic with a separate tool box full of certs going to be working on my car or is the guy who has been there 6 months fresh out of Wyotec who only got into spinning wrenches because he thought FF1 should have got the academy award going to be working on it?

You back that up with usual dismal reviews from customers and why would I go there?

I could tell you stories of warranty work and what they tried to pull to get me to spend more money, but I am sure you have heard it before.

I also know the service writer is as responsible for the costs as anything.

I would rather go to a local guy who knows my car and charges a fair price.

Survey Monkey is an easy way to do surveys. No experience required.

Also, I haven't read anything past the OPs first post. I didn't want to cringe.

Seems like you have enough, but I'll add anyway:

Price. I cannot justify anyone working on my car typically. When I do, I trust that an indie is going to do the job at least as well as the dealer, based on my interactions with them for warranty work. It always takes longer than they say it will, it always comes with annoying up-sells, and lately it's been accompanied by cold calls. The last time I brought the van in for warranty work, the service manager told me how great everything looked and complimented me on my upkeep. Great, but I don't subsequently need three calls from your sales guys asking if I want to trade it in.

if everything was magically fixed overnight? Sure, I would try again, but I'd try it with a $0, had-to-be-there-anyway warranty job first.

Don't know if I'm the right guy to post this, as the last time I bought a new car from a dealer was in 1975, but my purchase of a 4 year old Hyundai was at the local CarMax. My one experience there was the polar opposite of what most of you have gone through. Took it in for repair of driver's window operator and a broken door handle. I have the extended warranty. They had problems. Replacement handle came in wrong, then the tech broke the other side. I mentioned that the TPM was lit, they replaced two sensors. Tech notice the latch on the console was broken, they replaced it. I asked for an oil change, they did that. Took 8 days altogether, but I had an Enterprise rental, for free. Extremely good communications, service boss's name is Happy. (!!!!) When I went back to pick it up, my total cost was 0.00. They even comp'd me the oil change. Internal invoice was over 1700.00. Was I pleased? Hell yeah. Will I buy next car at CarMax? Uhhh, YES!! So I suggest other dealers to check out how it can be done.

cwh wrote: Don't know if I'm the right guy to post this, as the last time I bought a new car from a dealer was in 1975, but my purchase of a 4 year old Hyundai was at the local CarMax. My one experience there was the polar opposite of what most of you have gone through. Took it in for repair of driver's window operator and a broken door handle. I have the extended warranty. They had problems. Replacement handle came in wrong, then the tech broke the other side. I mentioned that the TPM was lit, they replaced two sensors. Tech notice the latch on the console was broken, they replaced it. I asked for an oil change, they did that. Took 8 days altogether, but I had an Enterprise rental, for free. Extremely good communications, service boss's name is Happy. (!!!!) When I went back to pick it up, my total cost was 0.00. They even comp'd me the oil change. Internal invoice was over 1700.00. Was I pleased? Hell yeah. Will I buy next car at CarMax? Uhhh, YES!! So I suggest other dealers to check out how it can be done.

I have not purchased a warranty at Carmax, but based on buying at Carmax versus buying at a dealership, I can believe your experience to be normal. Love that place.

The last time I was at the Mazda dealer I was attempting to buy a cas o-ring for my 96 Miata. After a few minutes of searching on his computer the parts guy looked up at me and said "I don't know where you're getting your information from, but those old cars don't have a cam angle sensor." I ended up having to provide the part number to get what I wanted. He even went as far to tell me their return policy for when I figured out I didn't need it.

On the other hand my local VW dealer is great. I can tell them that I need an intake gasket for my 05 Passat, but that it has an AEB head swapped on it and they'll get me what I need.

Price, price, price.

I avoided dealers for years because of my perception of the high prices.

I've been working at a Ford dealership for the past year. I put in long hours, so any work my truck needed seemed like a convenience to go ahead and use the dealer. I know everyone there, and they gave me the "employee discounts".

But the price was still stupid high. I had them do a few things, but regretted it.

The latest- my AC died. I had them look at it, and got a quote of $1341.50 (with my "employee" discount). Seemed high, so I got another price from a local shop (well known for quality AC work). Out the door price was $481.62.

I just don't make enough money to randomly pay the dealer an extra grand or so every time I need something done. Sorry, Ford just lost the next few years of my business.

In reply to alfadriver:

Let me add something...

I am looking ahead and uncomfortable with my future relationship with the dealers because of the manufacturers, and the path they are taking regarding planned obsolescence and control.

I would like to buy a new truck, and I can afford it. I'm a fan of Fords. But the posture Ford appears to have taken is to do everything they can in the engineering and design to force dealer service. The complexity goes beyond offering quality and technology- it appears to be trying to force owners into overpriced service.

Cabs that need to be removed for service, proprietary diagnostics, VIN matching chips in random parts that should be able to be swapped from junkyards- the list goes on and on.

It seems like they built the most reliable truck ever built (the 7.3L diesel), then lost so much on service that they decided they would make sure that never happens again. The 6.0L was a failure. The 6.4L lasted only 2 years. The 6.7L is a fantastic machine, assuming you can afford dealer service.

I want the ability to do my own work, or hire the mechanic I choose.

I find myself at the tipping point. Though I can afford a new truck, I may very well buy a high quality used one without all the nannies, just because I resent this position of manufacturers. I am really not sure what I am going to do. I do know, however, that it has prevented me from making a new purchase for a couple of years now.

I am not alone in this opinion. I interact with huge quantities of truck buyers every day. My my entire industry (construction) is the backbone of light truck sales. And all the people I interact with say the same thing. The average age of the trucks I see on job sites is now at least 5 years older than it used to be. We would buy if we could.