Why wouldn't you race a formula car?

Open wheel cars just don't interest me. I don't know what it is, but if it's not a recognizable production-based doorslammer, count me out. 

I'm 6'3" and 250lbs, so I'm pretty sure my ass doesn't fit in most of them.

I don't have a trailer or anything that can tow a trailer, so it adds a bunch of extra expense getting a way to get them to and from events.

Limited opportunities to drive them.

Our autocross venues are really rough, and I'm sure they would be physically punishing to drive

Lots of one-off bespoke parts.

I would definitely race a formula car if I could get one for cheap.  The F500 has always looked like a lot of fun, though Carl's Formula-Vee thread has me looking there too.

There are a couple in my area getting autocrossed and that looks like a lot of fun too.

frenchyd said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

I'm sorry but I just can't connect to formula cars.   I know they are buckets faster than cars made from stock bodies.  However a Formula car makes me feel like I need a lab coat and a slide rule.   
 While a production car makes me dream about flat out down the Mulsene hoping my drum brakes have one more stop left in them before fading to oblivion. 

Frenchy you you could totally rock "... a lab coat and a slide rule".
The Brit boffins even sported ties back in the day, a pair of spectacles and a clipboard, and you would be period correct.

I think they look like fun - I've driven some karts before and it was a good time, I imagine this is similar but just "more." The cars are cool, and they're so light and small that I think working on one would be fun. That being said, I'm not ready to fully invest in wheel-to-wheel racing, the only motorsports I've done is AutoX.

In reply to TVR Scott :

You can easily run a F500/600 on a Formula Vee Budget. I bought 3 snowmobile engines for $1500 a while back. Even the bike motors are relatively cheap as 600cc sport bikes get wrecked fairly often.

Out of curiosity, how much does a F500 weigh? Can someone 6'2" fit in one and what autocross class do they run?

Thanks for all the feedback thus far. Here are some of my notes.

Formula cars in general; if you are running them at a regional level they are no more work than production car. Most of them have some sort of production based engine. I set me car up to be user friendly (my son also drives it at autocross) and pretty much just need to maintain it.

As an example F500/600 uses either a snowmobile engine or a 600cc bike engine. The only thing you can change on the motor is the exhaust. Formula Fords are a push rod engine and (for regional level) any reasonably competent mechanic can rebuild one. The extra 5hp the pro builder gets only matters if you're in contention for the RunOffs. 

The bespoke parts; you will need to either be able to fabricate small things or have a fabricator. I do both.

Fragile; while many Formula Fords don't take well to off-roading, F600s and FVs are built like tanks as are the original Formula Mazdas.

Fitment; varies wildly by chassis but many of them will fit big guys. 

Safety; That's a valid concern. Something like an M3 is going to do better in a crash than say a F600 or FV but don't kid yourself that a production car is hugely safer in a crash. (note we are not talking vintage cars here; vintage single seaters are way less safe).  

Appeal; if they aren't your thing they aren't your thing..........it's whatever catches your imagination.

93EXCivic said:

Out of curiosity, how much does a F500 weigh? Can someone 6'2" fit in one and what autocross class do they run?

The weight varies by motor configuration but for autocross 800-850lbs. Many of the chassis will accommodate a tall driver. For autocross they run in F-modified.  If there are no karts in your region expect to routinely set FTD.

I autocross and vintage race mine. Note the older cars used a smaller roll hoop size (1.255 tube) and when the SCCA made the minimum diameter 1.378 it rendered a whole bunch of cars obsolete for SCCA road racing.  

All of those old cars are now being run in F-modified; the class has a very strong turnout and Solo Nats.

Depending on the chassis, an F500 can easily fit someone 6' 2".  I'm 5' 10" and test drove one at an autocross a number of years ago.  The owner was a lot bigger than I am and I basically bounced around in the seat trying to drive it.  If I got one, I'd be digging out that GRM article about "pour a seat"

One of the guys I met during that time mainly drove his in club races and only occasionally autocrossed it for light testing.  He is an engineer type and went with the F500 mainly for the really low operational costs. The previously mentioned comment about the "hockey puck" suspension was only one aspect. The cars are so light, a set of Hoosiers will last most of a season. Brakes pretty much never wear out.  The 2-stroke engine is stupid-simple and costs around $200 in parts to completely rebuild. Yes, the CVT trans takes some getting used to, but again - it's really simple and rarely breaks. So when all was said and done, his costs to run a full season of regional club races were closer to what some sports car owners spend in a single weekend. 

In reply to Tom1200 :

Regarding appeal.  I have always liked Big engine cars.  F 5000 I've nearly pulled the trigger several times.
Indy cars I want an Offenhauser. I don't care if it's a upright sprint car or the last Turbocharged Offy.  
   

frenchyd said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

Regarding appeal.  I have always liked Big engine cars.  F 5000 I've nearly pulled the trigger several times.
Indy cars I want an Offenhauser. I don't care if it's a upright sprint car or the last Turbocharged Offy.  
   

 

I think pretty much everyone loves those............but whew the operating costs.

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

As an aside two strokes will still run in a horrible state.

My car seemed to slow down the last few laps of a Saturday race yet still ran fine all day Sunday. Turns out it broke a ring on Saturday..........note this was the obsolete AMW motor. As parts weren't available I just ran it until it wouldn't run anymore.

I read the title as why WOULDN'T you want to race an open wheel car :)

 I only ran my F500 2 autox's,the suspension is poo on the rough frost heaved lots we have up here and my fall damaged neck couldn't take it.

 Having a massive headache for a week after a play day just didn't offset the hoot it was to drive.

If I could've simply installed modern sport bike rear shocks on each corner for a cheap upgrade to 2 or even 3 way adjustable dampers I might have done so and kept it.

In reply to kevlarcorolla :

It's hit and miss with formula cars. The Formula Super Vee I drove wasn't really much better the the F500 as the design is such they limit movement in order to retain the downforce.

I've found Formula Vees to be pretty decent has far as wheel travel goes. 

Why wouldn't I want to race a formula car?

Bottom line... It's not a real car. It doesn't really share anything with a production car and as such has nothing to hold my attention. I sit im my crap-tacular camaro and know that with enough effort and money it could be an 8 second back-halved wheelstanding doorslammer, or a wide bodied imsa track monster. There is limitless potential.

A formula car is a bobsled with wheels, and that is all it will ever be. A unitasker.

Just no appeal for someone like me.

Motorcycle  enthusiast and 914 owner. Just got over the immediate desire to get into formula V racing. Ended up getting a deal on a 914 roller race car. Maybe after the roller build up for track events an FV would be a possibility.

Reading this thread with interest as one who has always raced formula cars (since '74).    I'm talking Formula Continental, Formula Mazda, etc.   Never found a less expensive way to turn mid 1:20s at Road Atlanta.   The last 50 races wheel-to-wheel in my log book show no DNFs.  Just saying.  To each their own.

Unless purpose built for it, they are not suited for autocross.  

Most of this tread has evolved into a F500/F600 discussion.  

It's interesting those that take the not a real car line. I look at many door slammers and see a bunch of extraneous parts that there isn't much reason to be hauling along. I like the mechanical purity. 

As far as F500 weight, my car is about 630lbs without driver and low fuel. That is in roadrace trim with a 6 gallon fuel cell and a fire system. I could take weight out fairly easily if I wanted to. An advantage to smaller formula cars is you don't require as large of a tow rig. The single axle enclosed trailer I tow mine in has a max weight of 3000lbs and you could build a much much smaller clamshell or do an open trailer.  This means many smaller SUVs and such could tow one, unlike a door slammer. 

Also easier to store and work on. The simple lift in my picture can be operated with a hand crank and go in the trailer with the car to an event. 

There really is something to be said about how much easier purpose built race cars are to work on. There are a few tight quarters jobs, but it's more hand cramp than whole body cramp that production car stuff can be.

In reply to Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) :

The F500/600 class is trying to put in a lot of work expanding our roadrace car counts and a few of us on here run in the class in at least an autocross capacity. I'm working towards roadracing in the next few years. Intend to run some track events with PHA this year as life with young kids allows time wise.

AClockworkGarage said:

Bottom line... It's not a real car. It doesn't really share anything with a production car and as such has nothing to hold my attention.

I don't watch open wheel series for this reason, but I would absolutely drive one if given the opportunity.

True, it's not a "real" car (if you're talking about transportation).  It is a pure race car.

I think all cars are fun to race.  An open wheel car is quite an incredible feeling when driving it at (or near) the limit.  You have to admit it if you've ever driven one - No body roll, your ass inches from the ground, watching the front suspension work.  I'm addicted.

Everyone's going to have different reasons for not owning a real racecar:

• Lack of car hobby funds
• Event expenses (fees, consumables, getting there, motel, food, etc)
• Tracks being far away, increasing the above and the time involved
• Not having a place to store a racecar
• Not having a place to store a trailer
• Not owning something to pull that trailer
• Fear of open wheel cars
• Events not allowing said cars

I built a street legal mid-engine "Lotus Seven" so that I could drive it whenever I wanted, not having to wait weeks or months to tow it to an event. I never "raced" it but did do trackdays and hillclimbs, and that was enough for me.

Somewhat related aside: my brother and I went to the SCCA runoffs several years ago, the one at Laguna Seca... the one with the Spec Miata engine fiasco. Watching that play out in real time only enforced my feelings that real racing has so much stress-inducing drama off the track, that it never interested me enough to take that path.

I'm a big Clint McMahan fan.   Worked with Jay Novak on F600 rules acceptance in SCCA.  Might have moved to F600 if only SCCA would have allowed the wheelbase to be longer.

In reply to Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) :

I have car #3 of the first 6 cars Jay built; he was extremely helpful. I've had it 8 years now and love the class.

I like Clint as well; he's always straightforward and talks openly about his program.

In reply to Russ McBride :

This is were I am at as well. I'd be three times as addicted if I was driving an RT4. LOL.