Why wouldn't you race a formula car?

I started with an 82 Reynard FF for a few years, then baby, life, etc.  Started back again but this time into HPDE with a well prepped E36. Ended up back into racing with an 81 Van Diemen FF.  Figure $15-20k will get you a decent vintage FF.  The E36 was fun to drive, but not formula car fun to drive. The big plus is FF field sizes, consistent field sizes of 20+ FFs are normal in the vintage world. 

Always someone to play with, even for us back markers :-)

I don't consider a formula car as I can't use them on track with non formula cars like HPDE, time trials, etc, which are much easier to find track time for than formula cars. I

Sonic said:

I don't consider a formula car as I can't use them on track with non formula cars like HPDE, time trials, etc, which are much easier to find track time for than formula cars. 

This is a definite down-side.  With the E36 I could pretty much run an HPDE any weekend I wanted to at a track within a couple hours drive.  There are just so many HPDE groups currently.  I also think this is the biggest barrier to entry to formula car racing.  No natural feeder program of entrants from HPDE to wheel to wheel, like you see with NASA, BMWCCA, PCA, etc.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Death.  Too many people depend on me currently.

I think about moving to a formula car every now and again. But I specifically don't like wheel to wheel racing. I like TT and Hill Climbs. And there's no place for a formula car in TT.

SCCA Time Trials allow formula cars.  Just saying.

I understand the thoughts being presented.  Interesting read.  I think there is a difference between those of us who enjoy wheel-to-wheel racing and those that want to do autocross/TT/HPDE/track days.   Makes sense to me.  Much of the reason is economics, pure and simple.  I started out in autocross for many years.  I think the "death" comment above might be a bit extreme.  But, that's OK in the vein of this discussion.

In all my years of formula car racing I keep a spreadsheet.  I average about $2K per weekend, counting purchase of car and maintenance, and travel over many years.  Now, I realize that is not in the ability of many GRM folks.   Its getting out of reach for me.  But, that amount is cheap compared to what is being spent on door-slammers at WRL events.

20 years ago I lectured folks to get HANS devices.  I truly believe the use of one in 2005 saved my life.  I think "halos" are the best thing to come around in years.  But, they are almost impossible to install on the club racing fleet.

I've talked to many wealthy parents at race tracks around the country over the years, and many have said, "My kid will only race if there is a cage involved."  I see their concern.   

I say, Keep up the good discussion.

In reply to Tom1200 :

I do find it odd regarding the "its not a real car" comments given it has 4 wheels and an engine.

 I'm guessing they have never tried one to see what they're missing.

I made a deal for an F1000 yrs ago but my self preservation mode kicked in and I backed out,slower formula cars are a good balance point of immense fun,pure driving satisfaction and affordablity.

Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm a big Clint McMahan fan.   Worked with Jay Novak on F600 rules acceptance in SCCA.  Might have moved to F600 if only SCCA would have allowed the wheelbase to be longer.

I remember watching some of the videos of some of the early F600 cars. OMG, what a sound... Like an F1 car on the cheap. 

As far as answering the original question, I don't for the same reason I don't race a production based car: space and time.  But should something change, I would lean towards a F500 or F600 if I didn't go with some sort of production vintage car.  Racing is expensive no matter what.  Even Lemons isn't really "cheap."

Speaking of TT/HC events, I asked my friend why he didn't race the popular PA Hill Climb Assoc. events and his general comment was, "Look at the helmet height in my car...  now think about where the barriers on the side of the courses usually are...  "   Um... yeah... I can see why he might not want to take that risk... 

I'm 5'18" tall.  I doubt many would accommodate a gentleman of my stature. 

I do remember being pretty disappointed when SCCA announced their national TT program and did not offer any classes for OW race cars.  Thankfully, most SCCA regions (at least in the southeast US) allow all SCCA classes at their TT and hillclimb events.  Also, The FIRM welcomes us on their open track days.

It does seem to be pretty rare for HPDE events to allow OW race cars.  However, they seem to welcome  closed wheel racers (Radicals, SRF's, Lotus/Caterhams, etc).

In reply to FSP_ZX2 :

At 6' 6", you might have trouble fitting in a lot of production cars with a helmet.

One advantage of formula cars is the cockpit can be somewhat sized or modified to fit a particular driver. 

Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) said:

SCCA Time Trials allow formula cars.  Just saying.

Do they? I've both never seen one at an event or even in results. Plus I don't see how they'd fit in the rules.

If they do, then idea been horribly communicated. And I feel like that's one thing the SCCA is normally pretty good about....

JG Pasterjak said:

My biggest complaint with formula cars, [...], is the fact that you have limited opportunities to run them. Aside from sanctioned SCCA events, most TT and track day groups don't allow open-wheel cars (and, yeas, even full side pod cars are considered open wheel in this case). So testing and non-competitive opportunities are limited.

I realize I'm frequently vocal about my dislike of SCCA's rulebooks.  Really, though, my dislike is more fundamental.  

I disagree that the SCCA's approach to rules design has as its outcomes the following benefits: 1) reducing cost, 2) leveling the playing field.  The SCCA's rules system, in reality/effect, prioritizes: institutional knowledge, pre-existing competitors, and niche component suppliers... which in actuality leads to harder to find/more costly parts, and uninteresting designs/competition.  The rules stifles innovation so much, that the very concept of "cars making speed in different ways" is anathema to the Formula crowd.

so, in order to "go race a formula car", I'd have to decide to support all the malarkey that undergirds these systems.

Thanks, but no.

Instead, I could spend 1/10th the money of a formula car and build a sim rig, which I can use to race interesting, historic and diverse formula cars.  That sounds like a much more interesting and productive use of my time and energy; and more readily shareable with the sleepykids.

I enjoy watching open wheel racing particularly Indycar. However, in club racing, when flagging, I have seen a number of F-Fords and FVs get airborne and saw at least one FF guy get killed. Production cars at least feel somewhat safer.

In reply to L5wolvesf :

  I've seen enough racing where the red mist attacks a driver  and at that point it doesn't matter if it's a formula car, a sports racer, or a production based car. Bad stuff happens.  
     I will say that watching Vintage racing where contact is forbidden.   Drivers don't seem to get the red mist very often.  We know that these old cars can't be as safe as the newly designed stuff  and drive accordingly.  

For me? I can't stand the sound of F500/600. Like a chainsaw on cocaine. I've turned wrenches and pit crewed for FVee enough to like them and consider one, but they've narrowed the focus so much in the rules that it's not really the entry level experience it once was. $1200 for an intake? Seriously? It's a metal tube with flanges. The participation numbers in the NE area are up due in large part the NE FVee group. A great bunch of drivers. But my Scirocco is cheaper to run and can be used at more venues more easily. And no tire interlocking either. 

Never say never though...

When I was a kid, and by that I mean like ten years old, my dad gave me two rules: no motorcycles, and no open-wheel race cars. I know he lost at least one friend to a motorcycle accident in his younger days; not sure if there was a backstory to the formula car prohibition or if he just didn't think they were safe in general. Either way, I've never been on a motorcycle and I've never had any inkling of getting in an open-wheeler, not that such an opportunity has ever been presented to me.

In reply to Claff :

If racing at bluecrab gets going again at some point would you like to try mine out?

vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) said:

For me? I can't stand the sound of F500/600. Like a chainsaw on cocaine. 

Ok, I can understand the two strokes being somewhat polarizing, but the 600cc bike motors?  They sound flat out glorious.  Just watch the below in car from 2019 runoffs, that is F600

Purpose built race cars vs street cars modified to race is a world of difference.  Just saying.   Sitting in the middle of a single seat car where nothing exists unless it helps you go fast is an incredible rush and as addictive as cocaine.   I have worked with some top level GT1 cars ... same deal.  Its not part of the car unless it helps go fast.  

All that said, true racecars can run in the rain and at night.  Lemans prototypes are to me the top of the grid.  But, I can't run one for $2K a weekend.

I guess I'm just an old surviving boomer... but video games where you can hit "reset" don't match the rush of going through T1 at Road Atlanta flat on the throttle and surviving.   So many stimulus inputs hitting you at the same time.  OMG

F600 is a great option for many, but I would need a longer wheelbase for high speed stability and fit.  They really sound like F1 at the end of a straight.

All that said I really like reading all the opinions being written.

frenchyd said:

In reply to L5wolvesf :

  I've seen enough racing where the red mist attacks a driver  and at that point it doesn't matter if it's a formula car, a sports racer, or a production based car. Bad stuff happens.  
     I will say that watching Vintage racing where contact is forbidden.   Drivers don't seem to get the red mist very often.  We know that these old cars can't be as safe as the newly designed stuff  and drive accordingly.  

It is in LeMons and WRL as well.

Formula cars (OW) or even Protoype Sports cars (24HLM) are not that interesting to me because they have so little in common with the junk I wrench on every day. I like racing old VW or BMW junkers because they are relatable. The cars I thought were cool in the 1990s are old enough now to be bought for peanuts, stripped, caged, raced, wrecked, repeat.

In reply to Purple Frog (Forum Supporter) :

My costs for running my Datsun 1200 and my F500 are almost identical. Clint and I once discussed this online; I seem to recall he was spending around 2K whereas I spend around $1100-$1200 per weekend depending on gas prices. Local events cost me about $900-$1100.

Note those numbers include amortizing maintenance costs as well.

In reply to Apexcarver :

Good stuff if you haven't watched the Indy RunOffs F600 race you have to as it totally rocks.