Wideband o2 sensor/displays

I built a JAW from a groupbuy on this forum actually a few years ago. Glad too see they are still working on it. It worked out great for me. Pretty sure it cost right at $100 including the sensor to build with led display.

Well, i just got off the phone with Innovate. I'm going to postpone buying a new unit until Sunday evening and see what i can do with it. They said that even though the Blue wire is IGN OUTPUT, it still has to see a switched power signal in order to power up, so i'm just going to go ahead and run 12v power to it from the same place the red wire is going to.

Then we'll see where we stand.

Unfortunately, if i can't find a way to make this install look better, i'm still going to ditch it, but at least this way i've got something that i can use to make sure that there isn't anything HORRIBLY wrong with it after this last round of work.

Good luck!

To confirm, this is the one I use on my car. http://www.powerdex.com/

Paul_VR6 wrote: Good luck! To confirm, this is the one I use on my car. http://www.powerdex.com/

Yep, ok. Interesting that you and at least one other person that i know that actively tunes customer cars, (Dude i bought the XJ off of is a Haltech dealer) are using/have recommended that unit.

what do you think of this one?

http://tunertools.com/proddetail.asp?prod=IN-3844

^Take a gander at page 2.

I not only recommend it, but actively endorse it. On my new motor I'm going to use it for monitoring only (due to a firmware limitation) and use 2x LC1 to take care of stoich/lean burn duties.

alfadriver wrote: One other note to make- all of the systems that display what they think is air-fuel ratio is actually normalized to gasoline. So if you are running E10, and it says 14.7, that actually means less. The actaul correlation is with lambda (or gamma, depending on your language), so stoich is stoich for gas, E10, E85, or whatever devlilish fuel you come up with. It would be a lot easier if the sensors ran a 0-2 rating for lamda or gamma, since that's what they really sense. Anyway, carry on. Some cool aftermarket options out there. And I sometimes wonder why certain companies don't go after them, as the technology inside the little box is actually patented. I won't turn anyone in, but I do know one of the guys who developed that. E

Shopping for another wideband for the Escort now, and happened to notice your comment about E10.

Assuming i'm getting this right, when E10 is in effect around here, i'm actually running.... leaner than the display is showing? Not by any significant amount i would imagine, but did i get that right?

Luckily this car will just require the most basic of PNP widebands so i don't have to deal with the LC1 nightmare again.

Not sure what you mean....

Maybe..... If you call stoich 14.6 as it is for gas, the meter is just interpreting lamda or gamma of 1.0 as 14.6. And if you put in e10, the car will use its own o2 sensor to correct that- in that case the wb will detect that as 1.0/stoich, but tell you 14.6 when its really closer to 13.9. Exactly why I like lambda over a/f.

alfadriver wrote: Not sure what you mean.... Maybe..... If you call stoich 14.6 as it is for gas, the meter is just interpreting lamda or gamma of 1.0 as 14.6. And if you put in e10, the car will use its own o2 sensor to correct that- in that case the wb will detect that as 1.0/stoich, but tell you 14.6 when its really closer to 13.9. Exactly why I like lambda over a/f.

Well, for this scenario, there is no narrowband o2.

I think my main question is... would running E10 give me a "leaner" or "richer" readout on my wideband display calibrated for pump gas, displaying AFRs?

Well, without changing anything, the engine will run leaner with e10 vs gas- that assumes you inject the same amount of fuel, so the wb will read leaner

Where it gets confusing- in both cases, you inject 1 part of fuel to 14.6 parts air, but the wb o2 sensor will measure the exhaust as lean. Probably some thing like 15.5 or so.

alfadriver wrote: Well, without changing anything, the engine will run leaner with e10 vs gas- that assumes you inject the same amount of fuel, so the wb will read leaner Where it gets confusing- in both cases, you inject 1 part of fuel to 14.6 parts air, but the wb o2 sensor will measure the exhaust as lean. Probably some thing like 15.5 or so.

Oh.... so i should still trust my wideband AFRs as "correct" in that case, even though E10 should have a different lambda?

I think if i'm still seeing 11.3:1 AFRs under boost in winter with the ethanol junk, i'm ok.

alfadriver wrote: Exactly why I like lambda over a/f.

I wish the rest of the world would get on board!

<--- Tuned for .85 Lamda. Don't even recall what that converts to for E85, but I don't need to know. :)

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

Call it lambda 0.77 and we are talking.

For your set up, if you get 11.3 on a wideband calibrated to gas, you will be ok- but if you do the math- there are issues. (Taking 1 part fuel to 11.3 parts air will not work out with e10)

Annnddd... i'm completely lost now.

http://wbo2.com/ dont know anything about them but cheap as hell and square

http://wbo2.com/2j/default.htm look here more specifically

Lambda is Stoich, regardless of fuel type. So if your running gas, Lambda is 14.7:1. If you're running E85, Lambda is 9.7:1. But they are both Lambda.

So if I'm tuning for .85 Lambda, and I'm on gas, it will end up at 12.5:1. If I'm tuning for .85 Lambda on E85, it will end up at 8.2:1. But either way I'm at .85 Lambda.

So, pick the fuel you're happy with, pick the Lamda point that gives you warm fuzzies, and shoot for that on the WB, regardless of what the actual volumetric ratio ends up being.

I'm forced into E10 over winter... in AFRs... i'm still seeing 11.3:1 under boost. Which is pretty much the same as i see in summer. But what you're saying is that the 11.3:1s aren't equal because of the different fuels/different lambdas.

I'm guess that i'm plenty rich to stay safe even with E10, though, yes?

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I'm forced into E10 over winter... in AFRs... i'm still seeing 11.3:1 under boost. Which is pretty much the same as i see in summer. But what you're saying is that the 11.3:1s aren't equal because of the different fuels/different lambdas. I'm guess that i'm plenty rich to stay safe even with E10, though, yes?

Sorry it took so long to get back- I was on travel...

The short answer is yes, you are ok.

The intermediate answer- I seriously doubt that there is more ethanol in winter than summer. None of the blends we work with, which is a cross section of the US goes that way. Ethanol is a bitch in cold weather, and increases emissions- quite the opposite of the goal....

The LOOOOONG and drawn out answer...

All of the sensors meausre O2 in the exhaust- which is why they are called as such. WB sensors are exactly the same, but have very good heater control, and actually pumps fresh air into the back side of the sensor. I don't know how it works, but yes, air travels down the wire. Don't ever solder the sensor wires.

Anyway, that O2 gives you an indication how close you are to stoichiometry- which is, in theory, the correct ratio of air to fuel for correct and complete chemistry (that ignores the fact that it never is and never will be.... but it's an excellent reference). Since the sensor is relating to the chemistry in the exhaust, it's best reference is either lambda (actual a/f divided by stoich a/f) or gamma (inverse of lambda). So it's basic ability is lambda, and then the a/f that is delivered is then calculated based on the fuel used. The best sensors will allow you to input the #C, #H, and #O's in the fuel to output a/f. But that requires you to know it. Another reason I prefer lambda....

So to the equation thing- lets say you are calculating what your EFI does- and it's advanced enough to give you a good idea of air flow and fuel flow (and not just PW as a function of MAP and RPM- which is fine). If you actually do the math to make sure that either air flow is right or fuel flow is right, you need to know what fuel you are using. That's what I mean about the math. You've already illustrated the confusion about a/f if you change fuels....

Sorry about the length- hope it helps.

Eric

Ah hah!

Ok, so my AFRs will stay the same regardless of what fuel i use if i don't change tuning.... but my lambda will change.

I don't understand why i didn't understand that the first time.

Thank you sir!

Such a canoe set.

Some times I wonder about these idiots. Do people really go to the moronic links? Seriously?

This guy layered a bunch of threads. Should be banned.

This thread is so full of win.

Anyone used a Lambdaboy setup?

Ran across a control unit for what seems to be pretty cheap... thinking about using it for the Escort, but can't seem to find much recent info on them.

I think Lambdaboy has been out of business for several years, but I'm not certain.

I guess that would make sense since there doesn't seem to be any new posts concerning this unit on the internet since like... 2005.

Thanks Matt.