bamalama wrote: I had a car with a seized turbo. There was no explosion. Now I feel ripped off.
The first turbo on my MX6 seized. I knew it seized. I still drove it 20 miles home. It was fine. Just REALLY slow. 
bamalama wrote: I had a car with a seized turbo. There was no explosion. Now I feel ripped off.
The first turbo on my MX6 seized. I knew it seized. I still drove it 20 miles home. It was fine. Just REALLY slow.
zomby woof wrote: My bad. What I should have asked was, how did the turbo 'blow' such that it was able to take out your bottom end, and you didn't know it?
That's what i think the point is that everyone who says his motor is probably fine is trying to make. 
FWIW. My last dealership experience involved my Mazda Protege (2003) making some TERRIBLE noises, then misfiring. I was told I'd need a new head, at least, but probably a new long block. (ingestion of the VICS screws apparently). I regapped the plugs, and have since proceeded to enjoy a car that runs flawlessly for (so far) another 64000 kms. Which reminds me...I should consider getting new plugs.
I'd be looking for a second opinion: a spun bearing makes a racket in my experience, and a tossed rod would generally mean a puddle of oil resulting from a hole in the block.
Nathan
93celicaGT2 wrote: At the wild end, the turbo could have seized and exploded within the housing, causing the motor to ingest all those tasty parts, and i'm sure you can fill in the rest with both sounds and effects on the motor.
Remember there is an intercooler ABOVE the level of the output of the turbo, so nothing larger than would fit through that core will ever reach the throttle body and even then it would have to be light enough to be pulled up and through some pretty good bends. I think some aluminum dust is about the worst you would get which would likely get blown out the exhaust rather than do significant damage.
carzan wrote:93celicaGT2 wrote: At the wild end, the turbo could have seized and exploded within the housing, causing the motor to ingest all those tasty parts, and i'm sure you can fill in the rest with both sounds and effects on the motor.Remember there is an intercooler ABOVE the level of the output of the turbo, so nothing larger than would fit through that core will ever reach the throttle body and even then it would have to be light enough to be pulled up and through some pretty good bends. I think some aluminum dust is about the worst you would get which would likely get blown out the exhaust rather than do significant damage.
Agreed... MOST times that doesn't happen. I've seen (on the internet, so i'm an expert, naturally! 
) it happen a few times, though.
But the extreme wild side is always more fun to envision.
The dealer is acting very odd here. You need to get that car to an independent mechanic ASAP. Spend the bit of money to have him diagnose the problem, then make a decision from there. If it turns out the dealer was lying to you, I'd raise hell with surbaru and the dealer (honestly if he was lying to you, all bets are off and there are other people who could give you better advice, like your attorney :-)).
If the dealer is right, and somehow the turbo managed to fail and take out the bottom end (edit: I forgot this car was intercooled, so I really cannot fathom a turbo failing and taking out the motor as long as it hadn't slowly consumed all the oil). I would take JTw8 up on his extremely generous offer. Swapping a motor with a bunch of folks helping is a fun day project, so he wouldn't offer if he weren't serious. Then you will know it was done right, and with all the money you'll save, you can take the wife out every night for 2 weeks :-). If that doesn't convince her, I'd find a qualified independent mechanic. I've had good luck recommending friends to a local guy who has a really small garage and only two guys working (but he also has a stockpile of very cool old cars inside, and is quite knowledgeable and intelligent), often the best mechanics aren't the ones with the fanciest buildings/ect.
YMMV
FWIW, Jeff is in meetings for work all day but I've gotten a few messages. He is preparing to take it to an independent mechanic asap.
As far as my "extremely generous" offer. Jeff is part of Misfit Toys so its not like Im offering this for a total stranger (ok, I probably would for anyone on GRM anyway) and Im offering to watch him and his brother do the work in my garage while I drink beer ;) I guess I could help a bit if he wants. I'd like to think any of us would do the same if we were in a position to help another member here. I know Jeff would do it in a heartbeat to help me.
I think he is still leaning toward having the independent shop do the work but saturday we are all pulling the motor from a 2.2 Legacy so maybe once he sees how simple it is he will change his mind. In the end his wife has to fee comfortable with the repair, I understand that. And the totality of her experience with our work has been on a fleet of BABE rally cars which are not the picture of reliability so I cant blame her for having her doubts. :)
What exactly happened to the engine? Did you spin a rod bearing, or did a rod shoot out the side of the block? There are a few common ways for Subaru engines to go, and bearing failure is certainly #1. I've seen it happen a lot out there, and for a few reasons.
One is the type of oil that you use. What oil were you running? It sounds stupid, but Subaru engines just don't like certain brands of oil, with Mobil 1 being the worst. I've seen many bearing failures happen when people ran their oil, including a friend of mine. I ran it before I knew any better in my old WRX, and I was burning 2 quarts betweeen oil changes. I switched to a different oil (Shell Rotella 5W40 full synthetic), and it never burned a drop again.
Another common way for these motors to go, especially the 2.5L Turbo engines, is they have probles with the ringlands. They crack, and boom goes the motor. Look out for this when you tear down the engine.
Also, the oil pumps were problematic on the early 2.5L Turbos, but yours came a little later, so it's probably not the issue.
70,xxx miles is very early for one of these to go. I had 86,000 on my old WRX before I traded it in, and I beat the bag out of it every day of its life. I was running elevated boost levels and a tune for 60,000 of those miles, and it was starting to get a little piston slap toward the end, which was common to the 2002's no matter what state of tune it was in, but everything else was fine. If you contact Subaru of America directly, they tend to take care of their customer base. It can't hurt to try.
Otherwise, you can pick up a new short block and everything else you'll need for a little over $2,000. I'd inspect that turbo when you have it off, and if it needs to be replaced, hit up the NASIOC classifieds for a decent used one. Remember, not all of them will fit the LGT intercooler. Only the 05+ LGT ones and the 08+ WRX ones will bolt up. While you're there, upgrade to the 2009 WRX turbo, which is pretty much the STI turbo with the LGT inlet setup!
Trust me I smell the rat ... I was feeling pissed after last night when I posted so let me clear up a few things ... My wife went to the sales guy about the trade possibility ... the thrown rod and price quote was give way before we approached them for the trade.
Also the Tech in this situation was letting me know the dealership was making a profit. He was basically tell me to drop a new or used motor in it. Only after I told him I might not be able to convince the wife to keep it did he start talking about buying it from me.
The salesman also gave me a killer price on the new car... the only jerk in the whole affair was the sales manager who was trying to convince me "You'll never get your money out of it".
Also I know the sound of a blown rod .. this thing sounds like pennies rattling in a tin can ... Major loss of power and oilly smoke the second the noise started. Why it started three days and 60 miles after the CEL may or may not be related ...
The independent shop I'm going to get it towed to will tell me what happened before the new one goes in. Also I'm always in the market for a new coffee table so I plan on keeping the motor after it's out (even if it cost me the core) ... I am very interested in a full autopsy at my leisure in my garage.
if you're still looking for an independent garage in the area check out osceola garage in baldwin place/mahopac. I used to work there and I know the staff. It's a little pricier than your average "hole in the wall" type shop but they're very professional and the techs are great. they've worked on my family's vehicles for 20 years. www.osceolagarage.com
littleturquoiseb wrote: Also I know the sound of a blown rod .. this thing sounds like pennies rattling in a tin can ... Major loss of power and oilly smoke the second the noise started. Why it started three days and 60 miles after the CEL may or may not be related ...
At the risk of you getting pissed at me, that sounds exactly like a blown turbo, not a rod/bottom end issue.
If I were you, I'd use AAA to try to get the car here:
http://www.efilogics.com/
Chris S-K is one of the best Subaru tuners in the world, and he knows Subarus like few others. Here's a graph of a bone stock Legacy GT Spec B (actually owned by EFI Logics):
http://www.efilogics.com/dyno/graph.php?gb=0&afr=1&boost=1&rpm=1&sl=1&sln=1&runid1=87&rgb1=000000255"
What you're seeing is boost and AFR. Notice how at 11psi, you're still seeing an AFR that's almost at 15:1.
Now, compare that against the tuned version, notice how the AFR drops as soon as the boost ramps up:
http://www.efilogics.com/dyno/graph.php?gb=0&afr=1&boost=1&rpm=1&sl=1&sln=1&runid1=87&rgb1=000000255&runid2=287&rgb2=204000000
The stock tune is running very lean when you're well into boost. That's not a good thing for engine longevity. To me, Subaru is at least partially responsible for the engine failure, that stock tune is garbage!
I'm not good at descriptions ... 'ball peen hammers in a clothes dryer' might be closer then 'pennies in a tin can' ... The noise was loud and low, rhythmic and frequency was dependant on rpm. This forum needs a 'record noise button'
Hopefully it will be back in my hands (Ok at a shop I can play with it) by the end of work today so I can confirm for myself.
Don't sweat any offence carzan, we're all family!
When our turbo was going out, as I said earlier it made a noise like bees that could have been mistaken for a buzz in the dashboard with a low enough volume it could have been drowned out by music or traffic noise.
However, by the time we reached our destination, it was making a horrible racket that could fit what you describe. The noise was rpm dependent, as well. I'm 99.9 percent certain your turbo IS bad, but whether the engine itself is bad, too is not so clear. Personally, I think the turbos on '05 and '06 Legacy GTs are defective as some are only getting as little as 40K miles before failure.
THIS idea might help confirm whether the engine is shot: If you can get in and start it WITHOUT TOUCHING THE GAS PEDAL and it will start and idle relatively normally (except for an occasional "ting" noise from the turbo fins contacting the housing) THEN give it a little gas and all hell breaks loose, then I would say just a turbo issue.
If you turn the key (again without touching the gas pedal) and immediately get a loud, regular "TOKTOKTOKTOKTOK" that doesn't go away, I would say (maybe) the engine needs to be rebuilt.
Take the above scenario (again at idle) and add a horrible vibration along with the noise (probably more like a single ball peen hammer head getting flung around the inside of the crankcase) and I will concede that maybe it threw a rod. The vibration part is important because when you've thrown a rod, the rotating mass becomes unbalanced. It's not a vibration like a cylinder not firing, it is a shake like its going to shake the car apart. If you don't have a severe vibration, you haven't thrown a rod.
I'm just hoping the independent shop will truly diagnose the issue and be honest with you. With what you are describing, I'm still not convinced the engine itself is bad, but If I'm wrong, I'm wrong...won't be the first time.
I admit I didn't spend a whole lot of time with it when the noise started ... Like I said 100 posts ago the CEL totally made a miss I could feel, but only under load (the wife could feel it all the time and has been complaining about bad idle issues) ... So when it started the big banging I was a block or two from home (I was into the throttle going up a big hill) I drove it home and parked it. Next morning it was clear to me it was internal... oil smoke and big noise constant ... no need for throttle. "TOKTOKTOKTOK" is a really good way to describe it.
I think you asked me a while back if we had some serious oil consumption ... The morning of the big noise and tow the oil was way low (IMHO, some on the stick but below the fill line) ... I never let my cars get low on oil, I think the theory of blown turbo drinks all the oil out of the crankcase leads to rod or bearing is what I'm assumeing at this point.
I do like your test run down ... and will apply it when it's back in my hands!
Low oil changes everything. It's funny how we'll all jump on a dealer immediately calling them a rat 
. Keep us informed on how it turns out. I'd still raise hell with subaru if it was in fact the turbo that led to the failure. Turbo's should last longer than 70k miles. And after Silverfleet's post, it seems to be a reoccurring problem. Good luck.
Ok, after seeing that you are getting both a knocking noise AND oil smoke, it sounds like you may have cracked a piston. Either it cracked on the ringland (very common on the 2.5's of your vintage), or it cracked from a lean condition (less common, but does happen from time to time).
You probably smoked a few bearings along the way and possibly damaged the block and possibly the heads while you're at it. Not good. You have a few options here, depending on what you find when you tear the engine down. You are looking at, if you are lucky, a new short block and all the accessories (oil pump, water pump, gasket kit, etc.), but if you damaged your heads or valves, you might want to look for a salvaged long block.
Here's a question: how does your oil look? Is it metallic? If so, it might be time for a turbo as well.
dj06482 mentioned the stock tune being a possible contributing factor here, and it very well could have been. After everything is sorted out, you should upload a different tuned (and safer) map, or go get a mild tune done at a reputable local shop. You could do it yourself with a Tactrix cable and a laptop if you are good with this sort of thing.
In any event, I wish you luck at getting this all sorted out. At least Subarus are like Legos, you can pretty much build whatever you want out of a variety of different parts!
Nashco wrote: The Subie engine is one of the easiest engines to swap and rebuild, if you or someone you know is handy with a wrench. Buy a new or low mileage long block and give yourself a couple of days and you'll be back on the road. With regards to trying to get some "goodwill" out-of-warranty work from your dealer, I think you guys making that recommendation are dreaming. Matter of fact, I wonder how many making that recommendation have bought a car brand new and kept it through the end of the warranty period. When you buy the car, you have a VERY specific mileage/time that you have a warranty on each part of the car, from the fuel cap to the clutch to the shift knob. Those mileage numbers aren't picked accidentally. Sure, an engine might last 300k miles, but the manufacturer makes no such claims. Seems like a pretty simple equation to me. Bryce
That's exactly where I was going with my earlier post.
JThw8 wrote: FWIW, Jeff is in meetings for work all day but I've gotten a few messages. He is preparing to take it to an independent mechanic asap. As far as my "extremely generous" offer. Jeff is part of Misfit Toys so its not like Im offering this for a total stranger (ok, I probably would for anyone on GRM anyway) and Im offering to watch him and his brother do the work in my garage while I drink beer ;) I guess I could help a bit if he wants. I'd like to think any of us would do the same if we were in a position to help another member here. I *know* Jeff would do it in a heartbeat to help me.
Misfit Toys?? I don't understand the reference?
The reason I ask is my buddy has a paintball team that is named "Misfit Toys", though I dont think it would be the same.
Andrew
digdug18 wrote:JThw8 wrote: FWIW, Jeff is in meetings for work all day but I've gotten a few messages. He is preparing to take it to an independent mechanic asap. As far as my "extremely generous" offer. Jeff is part of Misfit Toys so its not like Im offering this for a total stranger (ok, I probably would for anyone on GRM anyway) and Im offering to watch him and his brother do the work in my garage while I drink beer ;) I guess I could help a bit if he wants. I'd like to think any of us would do the same if we were in a position to help another member here. I *know* Jeff would do it in a heartbeat to help me.Misfit Toys?? I don't understand the reference? The reason I ask is my buddy has a paintball team that is named "Misfit Toys", though I dont think it would be the same. Andrew
Misfit Toys Racing - Its a group of us in the northeast who have sucessfully campaigned in multiple BABE rally events adn who are currently buiding up a 1958 Wartburg to take on the "Trifecta of Crap" BABE rally, Lemons, and GRM Challenge all in one year.
Currently consists of LittleturquoiseB, TheWake, JThw8 and Sonic from GRM but CaptianNapalm from here has also joined in our adventures.
Thats a shame! I have not heard of many other people having such problems with their subies(new or old).
I am with the people that said you should tow it home and put a new long block in it yourself! Replacement 2.5 long blocks go for dirt cheap these days used. I am sure you would save a TON of money doing it yourself!
Thats a shame! I have not heard of many other people having such problems with their subies(new or old).
I am with the people that said you should tow it home and put a new long block in it yourself! Replacement 2.5 long blocks go for dirt cheap these days used. I am sure you would save a TON of money doing it yourself!
I second that motion
Helterskelter wrote: 76k for the bottom end to go out is BS. I'd be raising hell about that, assuming it's never been overheated and you kept oil in it. Otherwise, I agree with mblommel on this one, you ought to be able to buy a used motor for under a grand (i'm not current with actual prices, just a guess), and install it yourself (with help) in 4-5 days of work (assuming you've never done it before). If I were you, I would pull the motor one weekend, and install the new one the next. Just be sure to label everything very well, and you ought not have any troubles. It's just nuts and bolts and a little bit of muscle to get the transmission back up there.
any more news?? if we're having a swapping party, lmk? in the non sexual way this time as well...
Andrew
You know, when you see that last post previewed right next to the word "wife" in the thread title, it doesn't help your case.
You'll need to log in to post.
