Will the aftermarket fully figure out gasoline direct injection?

It is my understanding that only a few aftermarket engine management companies have figured out gasoline direct injection. 
Does anyone know offhand which ones?

And I guess for those who feel like prognosticating, will it ever get figured out the way the aftermarket has mastered multi port injection? As in, will there ever be a time when there are aftermarket direct injectors controlled by aftermarket ECU, supplied by aftermarket high pressure pumps? Is it in the best interest of these companies to develop it considering the looming electrification and hybridization of everything?

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On a different note, I was today years old when I learned that aircooled Porsches can be machined for dual spark plugs, since there are no water jackets in the head.   I suddenly started daydreaming about a direct injected 930....

randedge said:

And I guess for those who feel like prognosticating, will it ever get figured out the way the aftermarket has mastered multi port injection? As in, will there ever be a time when there are aftermarket direct injectors controlled by aftermarket ECU, supplied by aftermarket high pressure pumps? Is it in the best interest of these companies to develop it considering the looming electrification and hybridization of everything?

I think that by the time everything is fully electrified you'll have about as many years of performance cars with gasoline DI as you did with port injection.  This tech first showed up 15 years ago at this point, it's not really new.  That said, high pressure pumps are usually mechanically driven rather than electrically, which is going to make them more difficult to build as generic aftermarket units because there's no standard mechanical driver interface to bolt them to. 

I suspect the ongoing EPA clampdown on aftermarket tuning is likely to be significant here, though.

Holley, motec, Bosch.

Break the piggy bank and raid the kids college fund tho...

as a retrofit to non-DI engines?  doubtful, unless it's a combo injector + spark plug.

Budget standalones for DI engines would certainly open up a lot of swap opportunities...

Retrofit isn't going to happen. Hardware would have to be engine specific because of the HPFP, heads, injectors, fuel rails and fuel system, etc. 

Now, as far as tuning? Basically, every car on the market the last decade with Direct Injection can have the stock computer flashed with an OTS (Off the shelf) tune or have a custom tune built. 

No need to go aftermarket. 

In reply to z31maniac :

Tunes won't be available for long. 

Do those tunes/tuners allow for immobilization system deletes and such?

One of the big problems I see with DI is the addition of a level of complexity of tuning that few will be able to do- unless you are starting from an OEM calibration.  Controlling DI is pretty darned complex- the pump needs to be timed within a degree for it to work really well.  More to that is injection timing- and that has a pretty significant impact on performance, as DI is there for it's knock mitigation more than any other property.  BUT, even with that- if DI is done wrong, you get what's called Mega Knock- which pokes holes into pistons a lot faster than most other issues.  Thankfully, that issue would not be a major motorsport issue, since it's more a low speed, high load issue.

Still- the increase in mapping complexity is pretty significant on an OEM standpoint- one that it would be tough to do in a day of dyno running.

Sone do and some don't allow immobilization deletes. Most of the popular swapped motors have that solved. Hondata does for sure. HP tuner and the GMPP ECU handles LS series. Ford performance has control packs. 

Holley does a lot of work with the coyote motor which is dual (Port and Direct) injection. 

I would say right now it the height of factory ECU control. Every major performance car out there has the ability to get tuned through the factory ECU. Sure some things are one off items like the HPFP and injectors but unless it's something off the wall, then there usually is a solution out there anyway. 

iansane said:

In reply to z31maniac :

Tunes won't be available for long. 

Do those tunes/tuners allow for immobilization system deletes and such?

Maybe, maybe not. (Yes I know about all the EPA garbage). 

The only reason you would need to delete that is a swap, and if you're doing that, might as well go standalone. Or you're likely run into all kinds of issues with the CANbus. 

In reply to z31maniac :

I don't disagree with you but on the budget side of things, getting an ECM and harness with a junkyard engine is a lot easier and cheaper than going standalone. The standalone options are few and pricey. I'm doing some initial planning on a toyota v8 swap into an older car and it would be much cooler/more powerful to run a DI engine than the older nonDI engine but controlling it will prove to be difficult.

In reply to iansane :

But that's what I'm saying, it might not be easier because of the integration of the engine/chassis harness and the CANbus. That's older BMWs and Honda's are so easy to swap because the chassis harness and engine harness are separate. 

I guess that's what I was leading to when I tagged on "and such". Being able to turn off the need to talk to the ABS/TC/TCM/BCM and other systems. I should have been more clear but I guess I just thought immobilization delete is the biggest hurdle. Although I haven't worked on anything newer than the early 2000s so CAN was barely a system then.

They have BMW N54s figured out so well that they have supplementary port injection setups because the direct injectors can only be made so big. I know a guy who transplanted a GDI GM truck V8 into an RX8, then turbocharged it. They've got a pretty good handle on the tech.

If you can dream it, and it doesn't already exist, somebody is working on it. The only hangup is if they don't see any profit in it, they won't bother making it.

z31maniac said:

The only reason you would need to delete that is a swap, and if you're doing that, might as well go standalone. 

Immobilizer delete is pretty useful in a caged race car.

alfadriver said:

One of the big problems I see with DI is the addition of a level of complexity of tuning that few will be able to do- unless you are starting from an OEM calibration.  Controlling DI is pretty darned complex- the pump needs to be timed within a degree for it to work really well.  More to that is injection timing- and that has a pretty significant impact on performance, as DI is there for it's knock mitigation more than any other property.  BUT, even with that- if DI is done wrong, you get what's called Mega Knock- which pokes holes into pistons a lot faster than most other issues.  Thankfully, that issue would not be a major motorsport issue, since it's more a low speed, high load issue.

Still- the increase in mapping complexity is pretty significant on an OEM standpoint- one that it would be tough to do in a day of dyno running.

There's also the question of wether or not there's a significant enough market to justify the expense of developing the product.  For the most part it could only be sold for racing and off road applications and I just don't know that there are that many people who'd want to run GDI engines with standalone ECUs for those applications.

The tools are out there to integrate. There is just a lot of work involved. It's just not a weekend job like it was the first time I 4g63 swapped my colt in 96. 

If you are looking for something to swap a modern motor into an older chassis, Then there are a lot of choices for the ECU. Motec, Link, ECU Shop all come to mind off the top of my head.  That is in addition to the factory packages from Ford and GM. 

If you are cross swapping a different chassis, can Bus Sniffers exist from companies like CSS electronics to reverse engineer the CAN bus signals. Then you need a decoder to translate the signal to the new platform. Again, Not impossible because I had a LS3 swapped NC miata that Flyin miata did all that work on. Everything worked just like it should. 

It just takes time, effort, and knowledge to make it all work. The day of weekend swaps without the aftermarket support in a modern vehicle is gone.  

iansane said:

I guess that's what I was leading to when I tagged on "and such". Being able to turn off the need to talk to the ABS/TC/TCM/BCM and other systems. I should have been more clear but I guess I just thought immobilization delete is the biggest hurdle. Although I haven't worked on anything newer than the early 2000s so CAN was barely a system then.

I had the ABS/TC/EGR/Fuel tank pressure monitoring/ immobilizer all turned off on my swap so they wouldn't light the MIL.
I didn't even bother running the BCM as (I didn't think) it was needed. It wasn't but now I wish I had for better voltage control and manual control of the Auto trans shifting.

All perfectly legal BTW.

In reply to 67LS1 :

But yours is a GM, right? Aside from maybe Honda, maybe the most swapped engines out there. I have no disallusions that a chevy DI engine can be done straight forwardly but what if I wanted to swap an hyundai v8, audi turbo v6, or something weirder? you're dropping several thousand on a control unit. Which are definitely capable but I'm just a cheapskate.

I know there's a relatively inexpensive standalone that works with the four cylinder and three cylinder Ecoboosts.

TUNING a DI engine, however, looks like a complete head-scratch nightmare without a well-instrumented dyno cell.  Especially once factoring in that practically all DI engines also have variable cam timing and throttle by wire.  Even with port injection, you tune part throttle torque demand on those by adjusting cam timing as much or more than throttle position.

I'd argue based on the amount of valve and intake manifold cleaning maintenance performed, I'm not sure OEMs have this "figured out."

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

On which cars?  The bad old VWs were like that, but then again so were the TDIs.

Altering factory tunes isn't likely to fly for very much longer. Swaps could be possible with factory software, but would be limited to certain chassis

alfadriver said:

Controlling DI is pretty darned complex

This. We have deleted DI on some race applications and seen no drop in power, and a nice loss of some complicated parts associated with DI. Much easier to run more exotic fuels. 

For those interested Motec, Life Racing/Syvek and Bosch Motorsports already support it in some way. My next bet would be Rusefi having it but it depends on if he gets his BWM fixed 

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

Exotic like alcohol?  In my experience DI and alcohol is like duck to water.  Other than the power limit problem from the mechanical pump flow limit.

But in terms of race cars, there are some other good options- IIRC, the small Buick 1.4 is a PFI turbo, right?  And quite a few modern motors are PFI-DI, although I know that the DI is a big part of its peak power and torque ability....  It's not that there are no options- just fewer ones.  And it's not as if the previous PFI versions of DI motors are terrible, too- many can even be boosted.