Will the VW ID. GTI really be an affordable performance EV?

In reply to RichardSIA :

Oh my god shut up. Way off topic. 

Chris_V said:

msterbeau said:

Chris_V said:

msterbeau said:

This is the coolest "hot hatch" looking car I've seen in a while.  Just needs a K-swap and manual gearbox.  

So slower on purpose?

Not necessarily.  Have you seen what can be extracted from Honda's version of the SBC?

In any case, I'm less worried about performance and more worried about driver involvement/enjoyment.  I'm not yet ready to do without a manual gearbox. 

In our other thread on manuals, I talk about this "driver involvement" crap. If that's all it takes to be a driver or get enjoyment out of a car, put a shifter and clutch pedal on your easy chair at home and get all the driver involvement/enjoyment you want. Oh, there's more to it than that? My point exactly. In fact, I'd posit that steering, braking, and accelerating are MORE important to the control/enjoyment of a car than a manual transmission. Go out to your car (and all let you start it up). Don't touch any control except the clutch and gear lever (not the steering wheel, not the brake pedal, not the accelerator pedal) and see how far down the road you get.

Manual transmissions were a mechanically necessary part of making a car move. ICE engines need to have multiple gear ratios in order to accelerate and cruise, by staying in the powerband. But they WILL stall at a stop in gear and not be able to accelerate FROM a stop unless you allow a way to decouple the engine from the transmission, and allow slippage to get moving. So you need a clutch (or torque converter in an automatic). Electric motors need none of that. They don't "idle." They don't "stall." You can come to a stop in gear and accelerate from a stop without slipping anything. Adding a manual transmission to an EV is the height of stupid engineering just to keep some clueless "enthusiasts" placated. And FAKING a manual trans is even worse (looking at you, Toyota).

But manual transmissions were not the only thing necessary to make early ICE vehicles move. You needed manual cranking to get the engine started, manual spark advance/retard to start, then run it, manual chokes to make the carb work right, etc. Why aren't you demanding all that in a car these days? Why get stuck on that shifter as the ONE thing that defines driving and enjoyment to you? I'm getting so tired of closed minded "enthusiasts" who won't give a car a chance, especially something like this, because of some primitive hang-up.

These are massive fun and don't have shifters at all...

oooh and they are EVs, too...

Drive a car on the track or any situation where not being in the right gear at the right time ruins the experience/lap time/fun.  You ran out of fingers and toes pretty quickly didn't you?  This is the defining attribute of a manual gearbox. Driver involvement/entertainment is a byproduct. 

Also - EV's don't count. They have torque from zero RPM.No need for gears.  Still less fun than shifting gears and hearing the rise and fall of an ICE engine, though admittedly they are probably easier to drive and faster. Maybe I'm in the mood for easy/lazy.  maybe I'm not. 

 

calteg said:

In reply to Loweguy5 :

I'm talking about longevity. 

VW has a long history of building to a price point and cheaping out on items that would keep the car on the road longer.

I've always loved the GTI (and owned one, briefly), my hope is that much fewer moving parts in an EV version equates to a much more reliable vehicle

I'm with you on this one, but it wasn't too long ago that "Fahrvergnügen" meant "electrical mess". Fingers crossed.

I'm excited to see the production ID. GTI, though I'll admit that I'll be pleasantly surprised if it ends up being truly affordable.

Colin Wood said:

I'm excited to see the production ID. GTI, though I'll admit that I'll be pleasantly surprised if it ends up being truly affordable.

Agreed.  Heck, right now one of my local VW dealers is still advertising their MK8 GTi's at $42,000.  Maybe I need a readjustment on claims on "affordability."  Especially after they add a markup for air in the tires and blinker fluid.  Suddenly that "under $30K" car heralded in corporatespeak press releases winds up near or above $40K.

ConiglioRampante said:

Colin Wood said:

I'm excited to see the production ID. GTI, though I'll admit that I'll be pleasantly surprised if it ends up being truly affordable.

Agreed.  Heck, right now one of my local VW dealers is still advertising their MK8 GTi's at $42,000.  Maybe I need a readjustment on claims on "affordability."  Especially after they add a markup for air in the tires and blinker fluid.  Suddenly that "under $30K" car heralded in corporatespeak press releases winds up near or above $40K.

That's one of the most frustrating things when I get a release about a new sports car. Yeah, the MSRP is only $30,000 or so, but we all know it'll be impossible to actually buy it at that.

All I can do for now is hope that things change for the better in the future.

Chris_V said:

I talk about this "driver involvement" crap...

the height of stupid engineering...

to keep some clueless "enthusiasts" placated... 

I'm getting so tired of closed minded "enthusiasts"...

because of some primitive hang-up.

your overall message is reasonable but highly personal to you, just like his position that the involvement required of a manual transmission makes the experience more engaging and enjoyable to him.

the insulting descriptors are what turn me off to your message. you've done that a lot over the years, and it's really too bad because you have a lot of good things to say.

The synthesized noises and simulated shifting is really divisive in the enthusiast community and I honestly don't get the hate (although, there's an asterisk here, which is they need to be user defeatable). If the marketing department shows that they can sell more cars by adding experience enhancements, and if I can turn them off and put the car into a mode where it produces it's best possible lap time, I don't see what the controversy is. Let folks tune their experience to whatever makes the the happiest. Lap times make me happy. Maybe cool sounds and shift slaps make you happy. Let's not yuck each others' yum.

JG Pasterjak said:

The synthesized noises and simulated shifting is really divisive in the enthusiast community and I honestly don't get the hate (although, there's an asterisk here, which is they need to be user defeatable). If the marketing department shows that they can sell more cars by adding experience enhancements, and if I can turn them off and put the car into a mode where it produces it's best possible lap time, I don't see what the controversy is. Let folks tune their experience to whatever makes the the happiest. Lap times make me happy. Maybe cool sounds and shift slaps make you happy. Let's not yuck each others' yum.

This is a good way to look at it.

I should take a similar approach when I look at new video games that have features I hate (although in many cases they can't be disabled)

paddygarcia said:

calteg said:

In reply to Loweguy5 :

I'm talking about longevity. 

VW has a long history of building to a price point and cheaping out on items that would keep the car on the road longer.

I've always loved the GTI (and owned one, briefly), my hope is that much fewer moving parts in an EV version equates to a much more reliable vehicle

I'm with you on this one, but it wasn't too long ago that "Fahrvergnügen" meant "electrical mess". Fingers crossed.

Agreed. I'm not holding my breath on either the price point or the lack of electrical issues. This is the first EV car that's actually sparked any sort of desire, though I suspect if we can wait 5 years EVs will be 20% faster/cheaper/more available.

JG Pasterjak said:

If the marketing department shows that they can sell more cars by adding experience enhancements, and if I can turn them off and put the car into a mode where it produces it's best possible lap time, I don't see what the controversy is.

It tells me the manufacturer just doesn't get it.  I want the experience of the thing I'm driving.  If you're wasting engineering resources on a fake experience, maybe you could have spent those resources tuning the actual experience?

This is what Mazda consistently gets right when they tune for driver experience.  They build a car with driver experience in mind, then tune that car for the right experience.  If the next Miata comes with V8 noises piped in over the infotainment system, I'll know that they've lost the plot.

In reply to calteg :

The good news is an electric car is in many ways simpler than the ice version.  I studied as much information as I could digest about early EVs with regard to reliability before buying our e Golf and overall the class has been very good.    The ancillary electronics (hvac, radios) are subject to the quality the ice counterparts have, but at the base of it all is a relatively simple electric motor (or a few).

Having owned a 2018 Passat which was absolutely rock solid and now the e Golf, I have zero fear of anything VW.  If they were making a 2004 ID.GTI I would likely run screaming the other direction.

Berck said:

JG Pasterjak said:

If the marketing department shows that they can sell more cars by adding experience enhancements, and if I can turn them off and put the car into a mode where it produces it's best possible lap time, I don't see what the controversy is.

It tells me the manufacturer just doesn't get it.  I want the experience of the thing I'm driving.  If you're wasting engineering resources on a fake experience, maybe you could have spent those resources tuning the actual experience?

This is what Mazda consistently gets right when they tune for driver experience.  They build a car with driver experience in mind, then tune that car for the right experience.  If the next Miata comes with V8 noises piped in over the infotainment system, I'll know that they've lost the plot.

I think we can all agree Mazda "gets it ", and yet their ultimate back-to-basics perfectly analog Miata comes equipped with an unnecessary sound tube that pipes intake noise into the firewall... Mine has it. I know it's phony, and yet I haven't deleted it yet. Psychology is weird.

maschinenbau said:

Berck said:

JG Pasterjak said:

If the marketing department shows that they can sell more cars by adding experience enhancements, and if I can turn them off and put the car into a mode where it produces it's best possible lap time, I don't see what the controversy is.

It tells me the manufacturer just doesn't get it.  I want the experience of the thing I'm driving.  If you're wasting engineering resources on a fake experience, maybe you could have spent those resources tuning the actual experience?

This is what Mazda consistently gets right when they tune for driver experience.  They build a car with driver experience in mind, then tune that car for the right experience.  If the next Miata comes with V8 noises piped in over the infotainment system, I'll know that they've lost the plot.

I think we can all agree Mazda "gets it ", and yet their ultimate back-to-basics perfectly analog Miata comes equipped with an unnecessary sound tube that pipes intake noise into the firewall... Mine has it. I know it's phony, and yet I haven't deleted it yet. Psychology is weird.

This is probably heading to "different thread" territory, but I think you bring up some interesting points about the purity tests we ascribe to the experiences we want to be "authentic." Like, even the things we do to cars to make them "better" are just ways to specifically curate those eperiences to match our tastes. Is someone who left a car 100% stock and only replaces tires with direct OEM replacements having a more authentic experience than someone who bolted on some coilovers and A052s and has a cat-back? And isn't that cat-back tuned for a specific sound as well as performance? 

I guess what I'm getting at is we really have no widespread agreement where the "pure" experience lies. We like what we like, and people who like the same things tend to gravitate toward each other. I just try hard to not fall into the trap of thinking someone is like something the "wrong" way. Except squat trucks, those are dumb.

Look at the bright side:  by going full EV, the often cited VW water pump leakage issue may finally be solved...unless that's deemed to be part of the "authentic" experience and they duct tape a squirt gun in there somewhere. 

How does this car compare size wise to the current mini hatchback ev?

ojannen said:

How does this car compare size wise to the current mini hatchback ev?

It's somewhat bigger as one may expect.  The first table is straight from the linked article in this thread (and is for the VW).

The second table is for the EV MINI and is sourced from Car and Driver.

In reply to ojannen :

Great question.

The Mini Cooper SE is 9.9 inches shorter in length, 4.4 inches narrower, 2.6 inches shorter in height, and 4.2 inches shorter wheelbase.

As a 6'4" guy, I fit well in an SE and I fit well in our project Mk7 GTI. The GTI does feel like a bigger car, at least to me.

I currently drive a 2018 GTI, primarily as my commuter car, but have been considering an EV a few years down the road to replace it, since my commute is only 25 miles each way and I don't use my DD for much else. While I will always prefer to have a manual transmission, looks like that's gonna be tough to do with any new, fun commuter car these days, and if the M/T is gone, I have no real reason not to go over to EV. In short, color me interested. Hopefully they keep the classic GTI interior and ergonomics and don't try to get all spaceship-and-gigantic-screens.....

In reply to J.A. Ackley :

The current GTI is mini clubman sized so I am curious what the natural competitors for this slightly smaller car will be. 

I almost bought an i3 a while back.  The electric mini hatch was a little too small.  Otherwise, the evs that are potential drivers cars are $$$ (Porsche) or are difficult to service in Florida (e golf, e focus).  I am looking forward to some more options.

maschinenbau said:

I think we can all agree Mazda "gets it ", and yet their ultimate back-to-basics perfectly analog Miata comes equipped with an unnecessary sound tube that pipes intake noise into the firewall... Mine has it. I know it's phony, and yet I haven't deleted it yet. Psychology is weird.

But see, that's enhancing the driving experience of the thing that the Miata actually is!  I have no problem with that any more than I have no problem with sound deadening or mufflers.  Make the unpleasant noises quieter and the pleasant noises louder.  I don't think it's phony.  As opposed to my Focus RS which pipes flat-4 noises through the stereo system even though the car is an inline 4 because they wanted it to sound good to STI owners on test drives...

it seems almost mk6 vw polo sized, only about 2ins longer. I doubt it would be sold in America, we like bigger hatchbacks then this like the golf gti or focus st/rs. I wonder what the performance specs will be like, im guessing near golf gti horsepower but with more torque.

I told myself id NEVER own a VW but if they make that with 250hp/300tq at $30-35k id be down for a new hot hatch.