With the surge of cute utes, why did all small trucks become brutes?

EvanR wrote:

EvanR wrote:

wae wrote: I really want to like that, but what is that hole behind the door?

I think it's a step, so you can reach into the bed. Either that, or it's just a styling element that has no purpose. My Spanish isn't very good :)

I don't read Spanish, but my English is pretty good! Turns out this is also sold in South Africa as the "Chevrolet Utility". According to chevrolet.co.za it's a "loadbox side step".

with the size of the pickups out there on our roads today.. how come they don't have those steps?

Vigo wrote: Well, i think you're describing the current market without giving any attention to how the market got to where it is.

I don't think I am I'm just not giving the regulations as much credit for the moves your talking about as I do to Image conscience consumers. Look if the Chevy S10 outsold the Silverado 5:1 they would have absolutely positively NOT quit making it. Government regulations did not cause the Clean sheet redesign of the Aging S10 platform to morph into the larger more car-like Colorado. Focus groups and customer demand did. Sure the goverment has put in place regulations that are those lobied by Big buisiness but honestly at this point I would think Nissan/Toyota/Honda have as much pull in washington as the "big 3".

I think you could take your claims about the growth of the market through the 90's into the early 2000's and make a pretty good argument that that has a much to do with the availability of cheap credit as anything. I the early 90's a $2500-3000 difference in price between a smaller vehicle and a larger one was Expensive. When the consumer was willing to not only pay for the larger vehicle but also equiping that with luxury due to 3% credit on cars the amount they would spend increased greatly generating entire classes of vehicle for people to buy. The economics of a "small" truck cositng less than a "large" one are false. There is some reduction in component cost due to size but that is only if volume is constant. The Ranger sold in roughly 1/5 of the volume of the F150 so despite it's smaller size every part was relative to it's physical size more expensive. This is the same reason they don't invest the techonology and development into the small trucks Consumer demand is not there resulting in low volume of sales resulting in low profit at low margin. The Market will bear a high margin price, on a High volume larger truck so that is where the effort is placed. I'm fairly sure that if a manufacture made a perfect small truck that had all the best technology and got 33mpg and cost $6K less than that companies big truck they would probably get something like 80% of the small truck market. However that 80% is still less volume of sales than even 25% of the large truck market which you make a higher profit on. Honestly where would you as a buisiness owner spend your money.

Small trucks don't exist because at this point in time no one can make a good buisiness case for them. It's the same reason the Miata is what it is today and the ultra light stripped down manual trans, manual window cars don't exist. New Car consumers do not demand them. If enough demand exists a company or companies will fill the void. I really do not belive this lack of demand is simply because of the current vehicle offerings I think it is as a result of buying practices over the years by the consumers that purchase new vehicles. It's the same reason very few Manuals exist now. New buyers don't want them.

Funny, I just came to GRM to post a thread about "Where are all the small trucks?" and sure enough, the inmates here are already on it.

I wouldn't mind an F150... if it were still the size of the old F150 and not the size of a small aircraft carrier. I really want a truck about 3/4 the size, if not smaller. The Colorado (which GM might replace, and if they do it well enough might be enough to make me consider buying a GM product) was just about the right size for what I need, but doesn't get any better mileage than the full-size. How and why is this possible when Dodge can make the Ram hit 25mpg on a gas V6 other than a lack of effort?

6ft bed is plenty long. I'd prefer if it were 55" wide at the tailgate so I could fit a shifter cart in without taking off the wheels, but I'll take "just wide enough to fit a quad or a snowmachine or 2 dirt bikes side by side" too. A 5000 pounds tow rating maximum, enough for a smaller affordable RV, or a larger open deck trailer with a couple dirt/snow toys. Though I made it through an Alaskan winter with a Mustang, I'd really like AWD or 4WD, and don't care if its FWD or RWD based in the least. But more importantly, I'd really like to see 25/35mpg city/hwy so I can afford to drive the damn thing to work too, and I don't give a damn what kind of motor you use to get there. And keep it at or under $20k for a base model 4wd so I can afford to own it.

I don't think its impossible, and I do think the market is there for it. I also don't think anyone would build it because it makes too much sense.

geeeeeeee how I would have loved to have found a medium sized AWD PU (don't think such a thing exists )... the '97 F150 I ended up with is so big I'm having to re-learn how to drive... LOL

and yes, I would rather have AWD than 4x4

The Colorado (which GM might replace, and if they do it well enough might be enough to make me consider buying a GM product) was just about the right size for what I need, but doesn't get any better mileage than the full-size. How and why is this possible when Dodge can make the Ram hit 25mpg on a gas V6 other than a lack of effort?

It IS precisely a lack of effort! Open and shut case!

Nocones, i dont want to quote your whole post because im already putting too much text in this thread, but i did read it.. I agree with your idea that cheap credit had something to do with the explosive growth of the full size truck segment starting in the 2nd half of the 90s. I also agree that costs to produce a small truck do not go down proportionally from a full size based on how much smaller it is, even if you sell the same amount of both. I DO disagree with the blanket statement that a small truck costing less than a full size are false economics. It does still cost less, and it could cost less than that if they shared platforms with ANYTHING, with hasnt happened with the USA OEMs since probably 2004 with the Durango (big whoop). I agree with the premise that started this thread that basing it off an existing FWD compact that is built to be cheap is one part of a successful recipe.

I still think using terms like "consumer demand" and "market" in completely opaque ways and even Capitalizing them as if they deserve any Reverence at all, is basically setting up a false idol. Those things are not 'free like a bird to flit whatever direction they fancy'.. but anyone who attempts to prove otherwise is generally considered a conspiracy theorist regardless of the presence of evidence or facts so i will not muck about in that mess beyond pointing out that it implies assumptions that do not necessarily reflect reality.

So anyway, the REASONS why small trucks were not the preferred choice of the all-powerful self-determinant highly-informed usa Consumer is because of deliberate actions and policies taken by real people who had disproportionate influence over the behavior of the Market and Consumers. Why do small trucks do so much better in other parts of the world? Because of a false economy? Because powerful people made decisions that shaped the market and consumer expectations, and a lot of it comes down to government policy and subsidization/regulation.

This is the same reason they don't invest the techonology and development into the small trucks Consumer demand is not there

I will acknowledge that there is a portion of what shapes consumer demand that is 'honest opinion of informed consumers' but i still think the greater trends are shaped by policy decisions in government and business.

The Market will bear a high margin price, on a High volume larger truck so that is where the effort is placed.

That is where the effort on rigging the market is placed. It has paid off beautifully except for that part where a natural disaster drove up our fuel prices to the point that a following financial crisis brought the full-size-truck-dependent USA business model into bankruptcy and partial nationalization with a government bailout. Yeah, except for that.. The part where we had to bail out their mamas-boy business model with our dollars because even the government was too stupid to fully protect them from their own gluttony.

I'm fairly sure that if a manufacture made a perfect small truck that had all the best technology and got 33mpg and cost $6K less than that companies big truck they would probably get something like 80% of the small truck market.

The USA OEMs are fairly sure of that too, i think, but to sell such a thing in their own home market would be self-predation if it pulled anyone out of the 'huge truck funnel' that's been laboriously built over the course of decades. Now, you COULD say "but theres the whole rest of the world to sell to, what about selling to them to make it viable", to which i would say the USA manufacturers voluntarily gave foreign manufacturers a decade+ lead on this (same as they did with hybrid technology), AND the USA pissed off several important foreign markets with trade barriers.

The Colorado is an interesting and relevant case because when GM decided, oddly, to continue moving forward in the small-truck segment in spite of their despise and sabotage of it, they did not build their own. They simply used their financial clout to buy their way (further) into a smaller/weaker company that still knew how to build a small truck. Coincidentally, about the same time that product was ready for sale, Isuzu made a concerted effort to get GM out of its controlling 49% shareholder position and buy those shares back. I guess they did not enjoy GMs 'friendship'.

Jalopnik had an interesting post this AM:

http://jalopnik.com/the-japanese-trucks-are-coming-47262

It could get interesting!

Currently the only good-selling, reasonably sized truck in the US is the Toyota Tacoma. In general, vehicles get bigger and upscale over time. The product people seem to think that if you continuously upgrade a vehicle, you can keep the same buyers as they grow and become more affluent. Also, people just like big, and the car companies like the fact that their margin typically increases with vehicle size.

I doubt that this goes against my initial preconceptions about price, but how about one of these?

4wd, manual diesel Nissan Patrol?

I am just making assumptions about pricing, of course. Strange how the Southern Hemisphere guys always have those short-side beds.

I love my Ranger. Does 99.999% of what I need a truck for, has cost virtually nothing in maintenance over time, gets decent gas mileage in spite of some bozo specifying the "towing package" for a lower-geared rear end (on a 4 cylinder??), and will be with us forever. It's awesome. If it ever breaks down in a big way, I'll find another one or put a new engine in the one we've got.

I briefly toyed with the idea of replacing it with a newer model a few years ago since it was aging, but was amazed to find that they had become just stupidly expensive, at least for what they are. It's no wonder they killed the platform- back when mine was new you could find one at the dealer like it (stripper, manual trans with air) for $8888 or $9999 - granted that was the promo only-one-at-this-price deal, but over the intervening decade or so, they basically doubled in price, mostly closing the price gap between the Ranger and the F150. At which point most people would just go on and opt for the bigger truck, even if they didn't need it- particularly with free financing over 5-7 (!) years. After all, this is AMURRICA.

In a nutshell, it sounds like small trucks do not exist in the US because manufacturers understandably pushed a higher and higher "ring," meaning, a higher price per unit, or per customer. This was accomplished through both closing the price gap between compact and fullsize models, and it was complimented through legislation that favors larger vehicles.

Find one over 25 years old?

Mitchell wrote: I doubt that this goes against my initial preconceptions about price, but how about one of these? 4wd, manual diesel Nissan Patrol? I am just making assumptions about pricing, of course. Strange how the Southern Hemisphere guys always have those short-side beds.

I think that these are a great idea too. Both the Nissan and the short rail stake body bed.

I don't Know that the diesel would ever make sense in a small truck. My brother had a 4cyl Ranger for about 10 years that was great on gas and had enough power to move anything the truck could hold or pull. Diesel here is about $.50 a gallon more that gas, plus the extra price of the truck I don't think you would ever save enough fuel to make it pay off.

Right, I don't necessarily believe that a diesel would pay for itself. Once again, the price difference would just close the gap between small and large trucks.

In reply to Wally:

I did some research on the 2012 Hilux with the 2.5L Turbo Diesel and it can get around 26-28 avg mpg. Realize that the Hilux is now a mid-size truck than compact, but if the same 2.5L Turbo Diesel went into a more compact truck, I imagine it would get much better mileage.

HappyAndy wrote:

Mitchell wrote: I doubt that this goes against my initial preconceptions about price, but how about one of these? 4wd, manual diesel Nissan Patrol? I am just making assumptions about pricing, of course. Strange how the Southern Hemisphere guys always have those short-side beds.

I think that these are a great idea too. Both the Nissan and the short rail stake body bed.

I like that a lot

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: In reply to Wally: I did some research on the 2012 Hilux with the 2.5L Turbo Diesel and it can get around 26-28 avg mpg. Realize that the Hilux is now a mid-size truck than compact, but if the same 2.5L Turbo Diesel went into a more compact truck, I imagine it would get much better mileage.

The two issues I have with modern diesels is the complexity and cost, if used in a DD truck. This isn't meant to bash diesels, but I don't think that a diesel option would revive the small truck market.

They are no longer the simple mechanical injected engines that ran forever with basic maintenance. They now have just as many electronic and emission related do-dads as the average gas engine and in some cases require urea to meet emissions. This potentially leads to expensive repairs down the road and increased operating costs.

The cost for the diesel option, at least in full size pickups, outweighs any benefit in fuel economy. The fuel economy benefit has been eroded by better gas engines, and the Diesel HP and TQ wars sacrificing economy, and probably longevity. Just look at the HP/TQ rating for the same/similar engine in a MEDIUM duty commercial application to see how they are detuned for an application where they are expected to be worked regularly.

Make a 4wd, 4dr pickup with a bed that has 48" between the wheel wells, 72" long bed, manual transmission, rubber mats in place of carpet, 4-5K towing capacity, and 20-25 mpg highway and that will be my next vehicle purchase (2-3 yrs). The closest to that is the Toyota/Nissan midsize trucks, but they fall short on the bed size, and they don't offer a the long bed with the manual.

it's funny.. we lament the death of the small/midsize pickup.. and yet, even on this site, we starting talking how we want the next small truck to pull 18,000 pounds, have an 8 foot bed, and get 60mpg while producing enough torque to change the earth's rotation.

it's no wonder people gave up on small trucks.

back in college, one of my jobs was managing a warehouse for a furniture company. I had my choice of two pickups for use as my "personal" vehicle while working. A full size Chevy 4x4 with the extended cab and 8 foot bed and all mthe luxury bells and whistles.. or a small, 2wd nissan hardbody with a 5 speed and no radio.

I used to drive the hardbody.

Part of that job was running stuff out to the delivery guys when they forgot or damaged stuff being delivered. I can never remember that little nissan being too small for what I asked of it.. and I moved a lof of stuff in it

mad_machine wrote: it's funny.. we lament the death of the small/midsize pickup.. and yet, even on this site, we starting talking how we want the next small truck to pull 18,000 pounds, have an 8 foot bed, and get 60mpg while producing enough torque to change the earth's rotation.

I don't want any of these. These sound expensive. I just want a 2 door pickup with a manual and a modern NA 4-cylinder gas engine that gets mid-upper 20's average MPG lightly loaded. I would prefer 2wd for aforementioned cost and mileage requirements.

I know of a guy who took a carb 2.2 rampage, put a fuel-only megasquirt1 on it with a multiport turbo motor's intake manifold, and got 42mpg hwy. The rampage is literally the most modern FWD compact pickup that was sold in the united states, and its design dates back to ~1975.

That said, they look pretty badass when done up right, and have tons of motor options, all of which could easily do high 20s mpg.

could say the same of the VW pickup... also a design that dates back to the early/mid 70s.

Indeed you can, but diesel caddies cost what they are worth, or more, whereas the typical rampage seller just wants to get rid of it.

I know there were gas versions but i honestly dont know whether those can be made any fun with nearly all stock parts. Any 5spd rampage will get out of its own way pretty good.

Vigo wrote: Indeed you can, but diesel caddies cost what they are worth, or more, whereas the typical rampage seller just wants to get rid of it. I know there were gas versions but i honestly dont know whether those can be made any fun with nearly all stock parts. Any 5spd rampage will get out of its own way pretty good.

One reason so many people play with water-cooled VW is that engines are hugely interchangeable. A 4-cylinder engine/trans combo from a 2013 VW is a bolt in into a '76 Rabbit. Now the electronics...

I've been driving small trucks as my main DD for about 20 years now. As I progressed from my first S10, the trucks got bigger, made more power, towed better, and got the same fuel economy. I like the Colorado, but I would much rather have a simpler, original S10 sized truck with a modern 2.0L and get 40's fuel economy, rather than what I have now. My 2011 has a long list of standard features that I'll never use, and a 4 cylinder that makes almost 200 hp. I don't need that in a DD, but it was cheap.

I put my first Colorado beside my nephew's 1990 full size GM, both regular cab trucks with the same length bed. It was a little narrower, but within an inch or two on the length. That's WAY too big for a small truck.

Didn't the first Omnis have vw engines anyway? TDI rampage should be almost do-able with OEM parts.