X1/9 or MR2?

In reply to dherr :

 There are several Toyota options that are nearly direct bolt-ins. 

How about a 2ZZ?

I am going to look at one on Sunday with a 3VE-FE swap, could be the one for me.  Agree that the Toyotas offer the most engine swap options verse the X, which is either going to need a $3,799 kit, plus a K-series and transmission and a bunch of other parts, or build a MR2 using one of many different Toyota engine options. 

dculberson said:

_ said:

I'll throw sw20 into the ring. The second gen was a vastly superior car. You can still k swap. And it runs circles around both the X and the aw11 at the autocross and track. (Also, longer wheelbase ftw)

The SW20 is like 500+ lbs heavier than the 1st gen. I don't think that makes a superior car unless you're into grand touring!

On the original question, while I have and love my MR2, I think the X19 wins it in the style category and if you're already more in love with the X19 then stick to what you love. Make it look like this one.

Uh huh, and the sw20 can be driven in anger without repercussions for throttle lifting. Know how to drive an aw11? Understeer? Floor it. Oversteer? Floor it. If you lift, you rotate. You rotate, you spin. Quicker than you can react. Granted, you can tune these features out, but the shorter wheelbase still sucks. The weight penalty isn't that bad. I've been smoked in E street by a guy in a stock, 130hp sw20. 
 

I won't deny the better looks of the x19. Beautiful. 

Probably the most frustrating thing about driving the AW11 in competition isn't so much "snap oversteer", which I contend is mostly limited to the 85 and 86 due to changes Toyota made in 87 - 89 to rear suspension pickup points, spring rates and brakes, but the tendency to lock up a front wheel under moderate braking, making it extremely difficult to trail brake - and inducing serious understeer.  This is due to a change in the later models (again, to eliminate the dreaded snap oversteer) to a brake proportioning valve that shifts the brake balance strongly to the front under moderate to heavy braking.  You don't notice it on the street, but you sure do in any autocross situation.  Some folks use different compound brake pads front and rear ot help this, the usual method is to open up the brake proportioning valve and gut it so the balance doesn't shift.  I haven't done this to mine because I don't get to track it much these days, but I'd bet that one modification alone would be worth at least 1.5 to 2.0 seconds on my local 70 second track.  So if you go with an AW11 be prepared to put some development into the brake balance.

Another problem is fitting wide tires on the front - clearance on the standard struts is a problem, so changing to coilovers could be a requirement if you want to run wide rubber up front.  A 205/50-15 on 7 inch rims is tight, for example.  There is much more room in the back.

For a street car, though, I've had my 89 for 20 years and plan to keep it forever!  Just replaced all the bushings with poly and installed new Koni yellows, what a tremendously responsive street car!

In reply to TurnerX19 :

How hard would it be to adapt different hubs/brakes to get a 4X100 bolt circle?  Are there any modernish factory parts that are "close enough" that fabbing them onto an X1/9 wouldn't be too hard?

In reply to Jim Pettengill :

Thanks, I am not looking to build the ultimate autocross car, but something fun for the street and fairly competitive at our local autocross on the weekends. If I go the MR2 route, I will likely move to coil overs and run much wider tires. Do you know if the 87 updates can be appllied to the 86 and earlier cars? I am looking at an 86 this weekend that has had many updates applied from the later years but will see if anything has been doen to the rear suspension.

My 91 SW20 Turbo would also snap oversteer, Got much better after I put some good tires on it, but you had to be especially careful in wet conditions.

I've owned a '74 X, an '85 AW11 and an '87 AW11. The X was the coolest car, but it was broken much of the time.  The '87 was fun, not as much fun as the X. However, the MR2 was more of a "real" car. I actually drove it to work for a while and got good mileage. Depends on what your final use for the vehicle is. The Toyota is easier to work on and deal with in pretty much every way.  I owned both cars at the same time and it seemed like Toyota studied the X and improved upon it in every aspect except weight.  I like the way the '85/'86 MR2's look better, but the '87 and later cars have a lot of minor changes and refinements to make it worth going that way. 

In the future I'd  probably look at owning another X, but only to start with a shell, add a K20, painless harness and as many lightweight fiberglass pieces from Midwest-Bayless as possible. I paid out some decent coin for good used body panels and my X was one of the less rusted ones. The original X wiring harness was annoying to deal with. I'd also probably lose the original fuel tank and go with a frunk mounted fuel cell. I'd also cut out that stupid frunk radiator housing and make the rad drop in from the top like it does on the MR2 and vent it thru the hood ala Lotus Elise. Lastly I'd either cut the windshield off completely or replace it with Lexan. X windshields are hard to get and fragile. They also have irritating trim that has to be glued on. I had an auto glass guy that deals with older Ferraris come out to do the windshield install and he said it was similar. 

The X is a good car if you aren't afraid to make/modify parts you need to make it happen. 

In reply to _ :

I completely agree that the X1/9 is a beautiful design. But I hate to cut up a good one as there are few left and don't want to do a full restoration on a rusty example. Plus the cost of an engine swap is going to be twice the cost of doing something similar on an MR2. I can do a v6 with a supercharger for much less cost since it is basically a bolt-in.

IMHO at this point both are dinosaurs so quibbling over the few technological advances the AW11 has over the X is mostly academic. For your purposes, it sounds like the relative differences are mostly going to be ironed out by modification, so just get the one you like more/has less rust. 

penultimeta said:

IMHO at this point both are dinosaurs so quibbling over the few technological advances the AW11 has over the X is mostly academic. For your purposes, it sounds like the relative differences are mostly going to be ironed out by modification, so just get the one you like more/has less rust. 

They are, but the X is definitely not as easy to work on.

mr2s2000elise said:

Long time MKII owner. Don't care for the MK1. Driven SC and non SC, not my cup of tea. 

You like the X 1/9 better. You said it yourself.  You should go for that. 

Agreed...owned a bunch of each, including a Mk1 with a 3SGTE swap.  Mk2 is a better MR2 in every way, but a totally different car than Mk1 / X1/9.  Even the best Mk1 is an 'old car' driving experience -- noisy, drafty, buzzy.  The X1/9 feels a lot older than that.  A lot of folks seem to assume the MR2 is a light car, and it isn't.  They're 'heavy' for such a small car ~2500lb.  The x1/9 is about 500lb lighter than that.  So if you're going for a stock-ish nice driver, the MR2 is probably a better way to go.  If you want to build something bazonkers, then maybe an X1/9 ?  If you want a more solid platform, then a Mk2 MR2.

TurnerX19 said:

In reply to Stefan :

I laugh at better parts availability for the Toyota, given how exceptionally easy and cheap it is to get bits for the X1/9. On the other hand the brakes and bolt circle are legitimate issues,

I am not so sure that the wheels are an issue anymore. with the new 500 and 124s out. They still use the 4x98 lug pattern. 

Jim Pettengill said:

...but the tendency to lock up a front wheel under moderate braking, making it extremely difficult to trail brake - and inducing serious understeer. 

Mk1 and Mk2 MR2s will lock the front right tire first, with a crapton of available traction remaining on the the other wheels.  Glad I'm not the only one that experienced this.  ABS-equipped Mk2s can brake with the best of them.

In reply to penultimeta :

Both are dinosaurs, but the X1/9 is an older dinosaur. Early 70's design carried into the 80's verse an 80's Japanese design. Plus the electrical system of a Toyota verse the Italian wiring makes for a more reliable car. Totally agree on finding the best example for the price. I think I have found a perfect example of the AW11 for a reasonable price, supposedly rust free and stored indoors, all the plastic is off so I can confirm it is solid. Rust free X1/9's are out there, but will pay top dollar, and don't want to cut one up for a swap that is a solid example and running. If I could find a local example that is not rusted out for cheap, I could see doing an X1/9 if I could find the right one, but if the car I am going to look at this weekend is as it is described, it is a much better car for my plans. My ideas on engine swaps are not to change the suspension dynamics, so that means keeping it an X1/9 or MR2 rear suspension layout and design. The k-swap kits for both cars use axles that go from the Honda transaxle to the MR2 or x1/9 outer carriers and keep the rear suspension the same. If you don't use the Bayless kit, you are on your own to cut and modify the X1/9 which I don't really want to do. MR2's can easily swap to other Toyota engine options, keeping it all Toyota, or can swap in a k-series much easier and cheaper than you can do so with the X1/9. So while I prefer the looks of the X, the MR2 is probably a better choice for what I want to do with the car.

Sounds like you want an X-19 body with MR2 suspension and a Civic drivetrain?

That would be the perfect project!

I sorta know the Bayless Midwest people if you want references.  There was an X1/9 for sale at a fly by night lot a few years ago on my way to work.  Wish I had bought it now.  (But I've loved both MK1 MR2's)

In reply to infinitenexus :

I have not tried it yet but I think there is enough meat in the Fiat hub to re-drill it on 100mm. Originally it uses threaded holes in the hub, with lug bolts. and though holes in the brake rotor which fits on the outside of the hub. I have access to a milling machine and an indexing table, but have a nice enough set of (really) cheap Australian fake Minilites 13X6 on the 98 MM pattern, so I have not tried it. The only part of an X1/9 that is not easily available, and might need real creation is the rear lower ball joint. So far mine are OK at 150k miles, and I have a spare set of low miles used ones.

For reference, in ITA, the MR2 had a minimum weight of 2450, and I was struggling to get down to that with my '86.  That of course was with the cage, but minus all the interior bits, including insulation.  

That picture is not helping me with the decision :-)

Seriously, the X1/9 is a great looking car and the Dallara and other body kits can make it truly awesome. 

infinitenexus said:

In reply to TurnerX19 :

How hard would it be to adapt different hubs/brakes to get a 4X100 bolt circle?  Are there any modernish factory parts that are "close enough" that fabbing them onto an X1/9 wouldn't be too hard?

You can run "wobble bolts" to get from 4x98 to 4x100, but you're still left with fairly lightweight pieces from FWD Fiats of the late 60's/early 70's for hubs, rotors, calipers, etc.

With Fiat reintroduction in the US, there are more 4x98 wheels now, but you're still limited on available dampers for example without going full custom.

Looks like the winner is an MR2. Too good of a deal to pass up. The owner is a Toyota mechanic, he found the car, parted three cars, installed a E51 transmission from a SC car, and installed a rebuilt 3VG-FE v6. Car still needs much assembly, but the body is 100% rust free with good paint, interior has seats reupholstered in leather and a ton of parts to finish the car, including new brakes, with the brackets to use the larger SC rotors, braided lines, poly bushings, new struts, new springs and a ton of other parts. Body has about 100,000 miles on it. No pictures yet but with 95% of the parts to finish it, it was too good of a deal not to pass up for $2,500. Guy wanted to finish the car, but he has three other projects and is moving so needed to part with it.  I would rather have a 1MZ-FE but the heavier 3VG-FE is a proven swap engine  in these cars, so will keep it there for now. 

Pictures next month, when I bring it all home.

Zzw30 mr2 (3rd generation) seems like the answer, around here, they're cheaper than a nice aw11, my turbo, 6speed/lsd swapped daily driver weighs 1900lbs with the fuel light on and makes 250 wheel.  It still has power windows and mirrors, carpet, and stock seats. There are plenty of k swapped ones and kits although that's blasphemous. Why these aren't the easy button car for the sub 10k/sub 5k segment is baffling to me. 

Carbon said:

Zzw30 mr2 (3rd generation) seems like the answer, around here, they're cheaper than a nice aw11, my turbo, 6speed/lsd swapped daily driver weighs 1900lbs with the fuel light on and makes 250 wheel.  It still has power windows and mirrors, carpet, and stock seats. There are plenty of k swapped ones and kits although that's blasphemous. Why these aren't the easy button car for the sub 10k/sub 5k segment is baffling to me. 

the issue is the hardtops are also in the $3k range for a used one.