I think it depends if you're looking for a Z06 or not - I've seen a few manual "cooking" versions around for $12-15k recently, as long as you're not looking for a low mileage garage queen.
I'm 5'11" and the FRSs I tried for size had enough headroom for me with the stock seat. I suspect you'd be able to get more headroom if you swapped out the seat.
I have your solution. If you're willing to go spec boxster then consider this.
What's the reality price of a 996 engine replacement? I see numbers in the tens of thousands for high end builds, but is there enough of a market for refreshed junkyard engines that one can be sourced and installed for under $10k?
With the prices where they're currently at, I think in this moment I would choose a BRZ. New enough to not give a lot of old car hassles and cheap and common enough that I wouldn't mind doing permanent modifications to.
In reply to Matt B (Forum Supporter) :
That's an amazing car! I don't think I could register that in DC and drive to work, but if I did I would get *all* the speeding tickets...:0
I’d be getting the nicest NC2 I could find if I were you, but of the 3, my vote is C5 or E36.
My guess is you will find a nicer C5 for that price. A lot of them were weekend only cars and cared for, whereas the E36s are almost always clapped-out by the stance crowd at this point. You might find a nice CCA member M3, but they’ll ask a ton.
I owned a modified E36 for years, and it was fast and fun, but it needed a lot of attention. Numerous coil packs, window actuators, PS line broke, clutch fluid line broke, needed a new starter. That was from around 75k to 100k. I can imagine a Porsche being worse.
The E36 is narrow though, and I fit with a helmet and I’m 6’3” but my head was flexed at the neck due to the sunroof.
My 6'2" friend fits fine in his 86 (brz/frs) with a helmet on with the stock seat. I drove it on track completely stock, it was fine to drive but needed tires, brakes, and a bit of camber. Now that he did those things he claims it to be much improved.
I've had e36 track cars and they are great, you can probably find one already prepped in your budget. The parts and knowledge base out there is huge. The C5 is an amazing value and fast, but seems to fall short in all of your other categories.
CyberEric said:I’d be getting the nicest NC2 I could find if I were you, but of the 3, my vote is C5 or E36.
My guess is you will find a nicer C5 for that price. A lot of them were weekend only cars and cared for, whereas the E36s are almost always clapped-out by the stance crowd at this point. You might find a nice CCA member M3, but they’ll ask a ton.
I owned a modified E36 for years, and it was fast and fun, but it needed a lot of attention. Numerous coil packs, window actuators, PS line broke, clutch fluid line broke, needed a new starter. That was from around 75k to 100k. I can imagine a Porsche being worse.
The E36 is narrow though, and I fit with a helmet and I’m 6’3” but my head was flexed at the neck due to the sunroof.
So, I know I said no convertibles, but can a really tall guy torso fit safely in an NC2 with a seat on the floor (I don't think I have the skills to lower the floor)? I've always liked the idea of a 2.5-swapped NC. My guess is that I probably won't fit.
Similar thing with the FR-S/BRZ - I am not sure that I will fit with my helmet on! I am 6'2'' with a 32'' inseam, so figure my torso is like that of a 6'4'' or 6'5'' guy....
MrFancypants said:What's the reality price of a 996 engine replacement? I see numbers in the tens of thousands for high end builds, but is there enough of a market for refreshed junkyard engines that one can be sourced and installed for under $10k?
With the prices where they're currently at, I think in this moment I would choose a BRZ. New enough to not give a lot of old car hassles and cheap and common enough that I wouldn't mind doing permanent modifications to.
If you're DIYing it, yes but barely. There's a whole host of 3.4s and 3.6s on ebay with good leakdown numbers and fresh IMS bearings for $7-9k. But you still have to deal with the other risks and unknowns of a used engine. IMO the IMS isn't even the biggest issue with those engines, especially for track use. A good leakdown test is a good indication that the cylinder walls are in good shape, but I don't know enough about them to know how quickly they can develop issues. On the other hand, junkyard boxster 2.5s aren't hard to come by for under $2k, if not even cheaper. Toss a new IMS and maybe the high capacity oil pan at it before it goes in the car and it'll run basically forever.
Dave, I’m all torso and was tight in an NC. Let’s just say looking for a lower seat seems easier than dealing with all of that comes with an E36, the newest of which is over 20 y.o. But some people like wrenching. I’m getting old and tired of it.
In reply to CyberEric :
Thanks. I enjoy wrenching, but, I have limited time in my life for it and I don't have much experience. I'd rather spend my time driving!
Depending on how 'track prepped' you want to get, up here in the PNW I'm seeing e90 M3's in the 14-20K range. Yes, in the early ones there is a known rod bearing issue, however the parts to fix are about 750$, I'm seeing costs for a shop to fix/prevent around 2K. This would get you a more modern car, V8 as well than the vette. Width is 71 inches.
looking at nva's craigslist, it looks like e90 328's are around $7k, which would leave a good amount of budget to bring them up to spec; and at least one site has the coupe's width listed at 70.2in ?
otherwise, I'll chime in with everyone else on the e36 or even e46. Lots of knowledge and parts to set them up for the track.
RE: fitting in a twin. Sounds like you need to just try it. I'm 6'3" and fit with helmet.
MrFancypants said:What's the reality price of a 996 engine replacement? I see numbers in the tens of thousands for high end builds, but is there enough of a market for refreshed junkyard engines that one can be sourced and installed for under $10k?
From experience - if you're paying a shop (not a Porker dealer), a stripdown to the crank cradle and build up again isn't going to give you much change from $8k just for the labour. If any - those were prices around Reno, NV a few years ago.
So summary so far:
-Get a C5 or an E36
-Maybe get a Boxster, or Miata (if I fit), or a newer Bimmer, or a FRS/BRZ (if I fit)
-Don't get a 996
I'd stay away from an E90 M3 for a track car. They're heavy and that motor isn't the greatest on track. Euro M3's make great power but the motor isn't as reliable as the later E46 M3 S54 motor and getting parts for it here is troublesome.
Rebuilding a 996 motor isn't for the weak of heart or wallet. A used motor is a gamble, they're not like a used LS. I have had friends be successful running their 996's on track but I wouldn't...
I don't fit in a miata worth a damn, I do in an FRS...
Hmm, I just thought of something. My friend is selling a completely built GTS2/3 E36 M3, totally caged, has a euro M3 motor in it etc. Do you need something with a license plate that you drive to the track or can you tow? Because if you can tow his car is amazing for the price.
dps214 said:MrFancypants said:What's the reality price of a 996 engine replacement? I see numbers in the tens of thousands for high end builds, but is there enough of a market for refreshed junkyard engines that one can be sourced and installed for under $10k?
With the prices where they're currently at, I think in this moment I would choose a BRZ. New enough to not give a lot of old car hassles and cheap and common enough that I wouldn't mind doing permanent modifications to.
If you're DIYing it, yes but barely. There's a whole host of 3.4s and 3.6s on ebay with good leakdown numbers and fresh IMS bearings for $7-9k. But you still have to deal with the other risks and unknowns of a used engine. IMO the IMS isn't even the biggest issue with those engines, especially for track use. A good leakdown test is a good indication that the cylinder walls are in good shape, but I don't know enough about them to know how quickly they can develop issues. On the other hand, junkyard boxster 2.5s aren't hard to come by for under $2k, if not even cheaper. Toss a new IMS and maybe the high capacity oil pan at it before it goes in the car and it'll run basically forever.
I suddenly want a 2.5 Boxster.
Well, we're right in my wheelhouse here.
I haven't had a C5, but I've had a C4 and a C6. A lot of people love them, but I don't care for the way Corvettes feel on track. I like a nice, tight, buttoned-town kind of feeling and both of my Z51 Corvettes felt really loose. You need to be comfortable with autocross levels of slip on a track at much higher speeds. It's stressful to me. Fast, though, but add wheel bearings to your list of consumables, and brakes and tires are not super cheap for this car.
I've had all the M3s except for the new turbo ones. An E36 is a fun car to drive relatively quickly, but once you're at a level where you're really hammering on it, it starts to fight you. As your skill level increases, expect front pads (and we're talking Pagid blacks, PFC-01s, ST-43s) to last less than 2 days and you'll start shredding front tires over a full track weekend because you're alignment-limited with stock parts and the staggered wheels aren't helping. I never had subframe tearing on any of my cars and I tracked them *hard* but it's been known to happen. Oddly enough, my S52 car drank oil on the track but I never had any such issues with my S54 across all three sets of replacement rod bearings. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I don't find M3s to be that much fun. I know there are some really big BMW fans, but every time I get an M3, it just sort of does its job. They're impressive and they look cool and they have presence, but I never got out of any of my M3s grinning and thinking, "That was a great drive!" They just aren't fun to me. Every M3 I have bought, I've replaced in a year with another Porsche.
So, now, on to the Porsche... sigh. I love the 996. I really do. An early 3.4L car is probably my favorite-driving 911 out of all of them. It feels so good to manage weight transfer, the steering is fantastic, it so communicative, I love the way they sound, I love the way they look, I love the headlights, and I love the interior. I still can't understand why everybody dumps on the headlights and interior! Anyway... :) IMS is not the issue everyone on the internet says it is. I've had lots of M96/M97 cars and I've never had an IMS issue. I have grenaded a 997 3.6L engine on the track, even with the LN Engineering 2.5q deep oil pan and pickup and Porsche Motorsports air/oil separator. 18k for a used (not rebuilt.. used) engine. The 3.6L IMS bearings are a thinner, single-row bearing and are allegedly more prone to failure, but, again, I personally have never had an IMS issue and I've had some real dogs and I've had some exceptionally nice ones over the years and none have blown up due to IMS issues. They're fast, they're comfortable, they're set up to not be super hard on consumables, even the non-motorsports 911s have some of the best brakes that go on passenger cars, they're actually pretty reliable, but some of the parts are a bit on the expensive side. In my opinion, it's worth it. Early Caymen are the same way. Same basic motor. Maybe an accusump would help? I don't know. When you are really driving the piss out of them, they'll ping and ding and smoke the next time you start it up and that's all normal and expected. Just watch your oil pressure and your revs. Lots of people drive 996s and 997s and Boxsters and never have any problems, but the higher up you go, the more preventative mods there are to help preserve the engine. If you're prepared for that kind of thing, the 996 is so rewarding to drive. Of the three choices, it FEELS the best to really wring out. Tremendous fun. There are more 996s in my future, I know it. :)
I had a Fiesta ST and on the street it was a riot. Super fun to drive, although the Recaro seats ended up absolutely killing my back. Do an extended test drive with both seats before you decide you want one... Anyway, that was probably fixable, or maybe I could have downgraded to the non-Recaro factory seats, I don't know, but after my first track day, I could not get out of that car fast enough. It was AWFUL. The brakes are already too small, and the electronic torque vectoring that you can't turn off MUNCHES on those tiny brakes. They get HOT and they wear out real real fast. And the rear bias is not fantastic - coming into, say, turn 5 at Road America, I have never ever ever had a car that waggled its butt from side to side under heavy braking like that Fiesta did. It was off-putting to say the least. I have heard of overheating issues putting the car into limp mode on the track but I didn't see that. I had terrifying brake behavior and that was enough.
A wildcard choice for you, maybe: I picked up a Mk6 Golf R a few months ago and that thing is FUN. I only just picked it up in February and tracks still aren't open yet so I have no input on it for a track car yet, but, yeah, fun fun fun. I love it.
C5 is the answer
docwyte said:Hmm, I just thought of something. My friend is selling a completely built GTS2/3 E36 M3, totally caged, has a euro M3 motor in it etc. Do you need something with a license plate that you drive to the track or can you tow? Because if you can tow his car is amazing for the price.
Yeah, it has to be a car I can drive on the street. I just sold my truck and trailer!
In reply to Lugnut :
That was a really informative post, thank you!
The easy fix for taking a 996 to the track is to get a 996 GT3, but that's a tad out of budget 
.
I should point out that I liked the 996 I had quite a lot, but I'm a much bigger fan of the aircooled stuff. Unfortunately even a somewhat ratty SC coupe is going to be above your budget even if it needs work. Not to mention that they may be more dramatic but definitely won't be as fast on the track as a even a base 996 Carrera.
Based on all of your replies, I would get an e46 m3 with coilovers, Vanos done, 275 square tires, and subframe inspected. If high mileage car, get the rod bearings replaced.
They have taken MUCH beating under my feet and never had much issue (but I am pretty preventative with my rides). A better car for you than the e36 m3 would be a 128i 6 speed. No turbos, similar power to weight of an e36 m3, narrow, more reliable, newish interior, and cheap.
I am an e36m3 fanboi, and LOVE how they handle once setup. So easy to slide and run around the track while keeping much faster cars in eyeshot. The e46 is very similar at speed but maybe a touch heavier/harsher. Run intermediate groups when playing with the fast events (MVP, Chin, etc) and will be ample fun. As long as it's been PROPERLY maintained (i.e. suspension, cooling system, ignition system all fully replaced) it has a serious pension for reliability not counting interior pleather and window regulators.
Now on the 996gt3 train, but havent driven it on track YET so cant give you any thoughts on the rear engine charade. Also scared to death of IMS issues in the 996 non-Fat cars since I have seen MULTIPLE end on track on a trailer while pflumes of smoke bellow from the engine bay. Not trying to spread the internet lore but not about to spend 10k on a 15k car if needed.
Build a bigger garage?
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