FlightService said:Why isn't a 996 Turbo not the easy button here?
Even though it wouldn't be seeing much mileage, I wonder if I could afford to feed it.
FlightService said:Why isn't a 996 Turbo not the easy button here?
Even though it wouldn't be seeing much mileage, I wonder if I could afford to feed it.
ProDarwin said:FlightService said:In reply to ProDarwin :
The 657hp version has full warranty. A mess of coolers would only be about a grand. I already priced out brakes, you could get the performance pack for the upgraded clutch and drivetrain. The engine already comes with upgraded cooling for the supercharger. Being a Roush kit I bet heat soak has been addressed already.
Still a possibility.
Are the engine and trans capable of that power level for track sessions?
I see this like a turbo miata. Sure you can make 220whp with a Miata, but it takes a lot more than a bigger radiator and upgraded brakes to make it track-reliable.
Precisely, it won't.
The PP doesn't get an upgraded clutch either, and the last gen Coyote cars couldn't keep the stock engine cool with heavy duty integrated radiator/oil cooler. The trans/diff won't stay cool on track at stock power levels, definitely won't with 50% more power going through them.
FlightService, not that I'm trying to bash you, it's just hard to make something bombproof on track. And once you start modifying stuff like that, it becomes more difficult.
Even if I was going to do this to a stock GT, with no power adders, I would add all the cooling and brakes and such to one. Trying to have fun reliably (and BBKs for instance typically lower consumable costs) get's very expensive, very quickly.
z31maniac said:FlightService said:Why isn't a 996 Turbo not the easy button here?
Even though it wouldn't be seeing much mileage, I wonder if I could afford to feed it.
Also, newest models are 13 years old. While depreciation may be in check, what about cost of ownership, since a lot of consumables and preventative maintenance may need to be addressed in short order?
Mitchell said:z31maniac said:FlightService said:Why isn't a 996 Turbo not the easy button here?
Even though it wouldn't be seeing much mileage, I wonder if I could afford to feed it.
Also, newest models are 13 years old. While depreciation may be in check, what about cost of ownership, since a lot of consumables and preventative maintenance may need to be addressed in short order?
Precisely my concern with an older turbo P-car. I'm obsessive when it comes to maintenance (and over maintenance) and taking care of known issues.
The0retical said:
Awesome cars, no doubt. I'd love a chance to drive one. They just don't get me going.
For me, I'll never use a street car as a track car again. Just not the best environment for it and a true track car will beat it hands down every time. So an A-mod car for autocross and a Sports Racer or Formula car for track use and not worry about having to get to work in a freshly wadded up or broken street car after a shunt on track.
Which means for me, in that price range I'm looking at street cars that I can be emotionally attached to, and top of my personal list is a DB9 Volante. Preferably with the 6 speed manual, though I'd take an autobox in a GT car like that. And the V12 noises!
Just wanted to add, but there's a lot of things that people don't talk about or mention when it comes to the effects of track abuse on a car.
For example, I thought I had thoroughly researched the C6 Z06 before I bought it, and people repeatedly talked about how the motor (after you've upgraded the valves, anyway) and transmission are relatively bulletproof if maintained properly.
However, after a track day and a lot of hard driving, I started doing research into various noises I was hearing in the car. Turns out that things like the wheel bearings or diff do not hold up too well to tracking/lots of hard driving, which I guess is to be expected when you have 505 HP in a car that sells for $70k new. There are sturdier aftermarket replacements for these parts, but the point is people often don't mention these kinds of failures when talking about reliability because most people simply don't track or drive their cars hard enough to encounter these issues.
So, be wary of what you hear about a car's reliability. It's always a good idea to research how specific components such as the wheel bearings or diff or other more obscure components (at least relative to the motor and transmission) hold up to "abuse."
SivaSuryaKshatriya said:Just wanted to add, but there's a lot of things that people don't talk about or mention when it comes to the effects of track abuse on a car.
For example, I thought I had thoroughly researched the C6 Z06 before I bought it, and people repeatedly talked about how the motor (after you've upgraded the valves, anyway) and transmission are relatively bulletproof if maintained properly.
However, after a track day and a lot of hard driving, I started doing research into various noises I was hearing in the car. Turns out that things like the wheel bearings or diff do not hold up too well to tracking/lots of hard driving, which I guess is to be expected when you have 505 HP in a car that sells for $70k new. There are sturdier aftermarket replacements for these parts, but the point is people often don't mention these kinds of failures when talking about reliability because most people simply don't track or drive their cars hard enough to encounter these issues.
So, be wary of what you hear about a car's reliability. It's always a good idea to research how specific components such as the wheel bearings or diff or other more obscure components (at least relative to the motor and transmission) hold up to "abuse."
You are exactly correct. And it's a big reason why the C6Z is off the table for me. Even though I wouldn't do it often, it's important.
I may start looking at 987.2 for the lower buy-in cost and go from there.
Answering from the sports car point of view, you certainly wouldn't go wrong with the Cayman. But there are other options.
Original NSX is a wonderful car I've always thought of buying but never quite got around to it. Mechanically reliable and a dream for handling. There are even turbo conversions around that would be pretty interesting. Never a fan of the duo tone cars, so it would be either all black (early) or a later one colour car for me.
Depending on personal preference, the S2000 might attract - a whole new world opens up at 6,000+ and the handling is crisp.
Either of the modern sports cars I have would probably interest you. The Solstice GXP is just OK out of the box, but responds very well to handlig mods - for a couple of grand you can make it the equal of just about anything, assuming you fit it with the right tires (I use Michelin PSS, but slalom guys use RE-71R and put up with faster wear in trade for better times. With a few thousand more, the engines can be made to easily put out between 450 and 500 bhp.
The other one is a little hard to find sometimes - the previous generation BMW E86 Z4M. Only 1800 came over (or rather stayed in) North America. They have what will almost surely be the best and last straight six non-turbo M engine BMW ever made - a 3.2 putting out 340 bhp and runs to 8,000. Only comes with a 6 speed manual.
The Lotus options are intriguing but are, I think, cars that one would quickly tire of if used as daily transportation.
Happy hunting!
Love the Z4M, don't love the S54 maintenance requirements.
I also really liked the AP2 S2000 I test drove a few years ago. But they are getting difficult to find and are $$$ (I realize not so much compared to the budget I'm talking about), and I think they face the problem of no adequate rollover protection for the track unless you ditch the soft top and go with a hardtop. Which at that point, just get a tin top to begin with.
Also, wouldn't an AP2 suffer from the same power issues you have with the BRZ?
ProDarwin said:Also, wouldn't an AP2 suffer from the same power issues you have with the BRZ?
This is true, it is quicker than the BRZ, but it's still the same "have to beat it on it to get it to move" type of powerplant.
Yeah, no worries man didn't think you were bashing on me.
As far as the clutch, the PP list I saw listed an upgraded clutch FWIW.
I think the important thing here is, from your objections, you don't seem to know what you want.
You have a very clear picture of how you want to get there just not what it is. One car for DD and HPDE. After that it all goes fuzzy.
First Mustang idea you knocked because of no warranty. Then the 996T you were worried about operational costs even though it is way out of warranty. FM Miata seems to tick all the boxes but it doesn't see to do it for you. ect ect ect.
I am not disagreeing with any of your reasons, I am saying your points disqualify every car with no consistency in the reasoning. That leads me to believe you aren't there yet in what you want.
Seems like you need to go test drive somethings and get a better feel for exactly what you are willing to tolerate.
Cayman S, Mustang Boss 302, BMW M2/3, Camaro ZL1 all seem to fit your description.
Go drive something.
Went and check the Ford tool again, neither the 2017 or 2018 list an upgraded clutch for the Performance Pack......my '13 GT with Track Pack didn't have an upgraded clutch either.
The 996T........I wonder if I could afford the maintenance for it. Regardless of a warranty. That's a different than buying a brand new car and immediately making it so Ford will deny any warranty claim for the drivetrain. So yes, different cars haven't different pros and cons.
I will once I get an idea of what I really want to spend (taxes/mortgage deduction/RSUs vest).
I've purchased enough cars from dealerships to know if I go test drive anything, I'm going to get hounded for the next few months to come back in and buy one.
The problem with stuff under warranty, is that it's new enough that the value is going to drop substantially.
The problem with old stuff with slower depreciation, or even appreciation, is that there is rarely a warranty.
None of this considers the fact that balling up your $55k daily driver on track would make most people seriously nervous enough to limit the fun, or avoid tracking it all together. YMMV and all of that.
$30k would buy the GRM project Mustang and that leaves enough in the budget for a nice daily.
Is pay off debt and investing the rest a viable option?
FuzzWuzzy said:Is pay off debt and investing the rest a viable option?
If you want to be boring, go somewhere else. 
I put plenty in my 401k and stock option plan to feel comfortable. There is no point in limiting yourself to no fun until you're too old to enjoy it. My company provided life insurance policy ensures my girlfriend could either completely pay off the home I just bought, her car, and her remaining debt or she could sell this house and move on.
I prefer the "save enough, enjoy some" to either "save everything and do nothing" or "spend it all, the future be damned!"
STM317 said:The problem with stuff under warranty, is that it's new enough that the value is going to drop substantially.
The problem with old stuff with slower depreciation, or even appreciation, is that there is rarely a warranty.
None of this considers the fact that balling up your $55k daily driver on track would make most people seriously nervous enough to limit the fun, or avoid tracking it all together. YMMV and all of that.
$30k would buy the GRM project Mustang and that leaves enough in the budget for a nice daily.
Very valid points as well.
In reality, the smart button is something like an older Miata, set it up for the track and have a separate daily driver. But I've done that before. Maybe I should see if there is someone locally that has an Exocet I can drive.
In reply to z31maniac :
We had a conversation a while back about the Exocet not being allowed on some hill climbs. Just a thought to watch out for.
FlightService said:In reply to z31maniac :
We had a conversation a while back about the Exocet not being allowed on some hill climbs. Just a thought to watch out for.
Good to know. Although I would really be more of an HPDE/TT thing if I ended up going that route.
Are there any listings for national hillclimbs? I don't think there are really any near me (I'm in OKC.)
I don't follow the hill climb scene, although I should be given there seems to be a bunch running where I grew up.
Here is the GRM thread about the Exocet and competitors.
In reply to z31maniac :
Who are you doing TT with? We had a guy run an exocet with NASA in Texas and the classing was such that he wasn't going to come close to winning anything ever. It was fun, but in the end he's spent a racecar worth of time and money building something he couldn't compete with. He sold it.
KyAllroad said:secretariata said:I'd test drive a new Camaro ZL1 1LE. If I liked it I'd wait a couple of years until I could get a slightly used one in my price range.
Not that I'll ever be in that position...
Had one of these at a recent autocross. They look cool and make good noises. And almost as fast as a E-street Miata!
OK, so in one particular motorsports event a smaller, lighter, less powerful vehicle is faster...but looking cool and sounding good are potentially important variables to be considered. 
mazdeuce said:In reply to z31maniac :
Who are you doing TT with? We had a guy run an exocet with NASA in Texas and the classing was such that he wasn't going to come close to winning anything ever. It was fun, but in the end he's spent a racecar worth of time and money building something he couldn't compete with. He sold it.
IF I did, it would likely be with NASA.
But that's good to know there isn't anywhere for it to be even slightly competitive. Not that I would be a main focus, it's still no fun bringing knife to a gun fight.
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