ZOMG what car ver. sport/lux

Xceler8x wrote:

skruffy wrote: Mazdaspeed 6: Cheapest of the group, only one with all wheel drive. I hear bad stories about turbo seals and motor mount failures.

I'd say you've been reading on the fan boi boards a bit much. Keep in mind..on the i-net problems are talked about much more than they actually happen. Why post if your car is doing fine? The guys I've heard of losing motor mounts are drag racing quite a bit. Not suprisingly they are also the guys who are blowing turbo seals. I'm sure their cars are 100% stock. That manual boost controller they have for sale in the "Used" section was never installed. HONEST! My Mazdaspeed 3 is a great runner. You can get one of those in the price range you're looking for. They won't have the interior poshness of any BMW however.

the problem wasn't the turbo seals or the owners so much as it was the bs that the dealers tried to throw at the owners when it happened. the issue is that when you put an aftermarket downpipe on the car, catted or not, it can start smoking out the exhaust. it wasn't that the downpipe caused the seals to start leaking, its just that the stock cats burn off the excess oil/smoke so that it doesn't smoke.

when you take the car to the dealer for this, they would try to say that the downpipe didnt give enough backpressure and it made the seals start leaking. the reality is that mazda is on their third revision for the turbo part number, trying to solve this smoking turbo/leaking seals issue.

the motor mount was a recall issue, but even the 08.5 and 09's have had the bolts come loose on theirs. what happens is that the bolts holding the side motor mounts aren't torqued correctly at the factory, loosen up and then the movement boogers the threads and/or snaps the studs off, then the motor falls down and trashes the halfshafts and tears up a bunch of other stuff.

So, did you just hit "Quote" and then "Post" there, Strizzo? Getting lazy, are we?

What are you comparing the GTO's interior to if you don't mind me asking? Specific complaints? You're seriously the first person I've ever heard that didn't like it.

P71 wrote: What are you comparing the GTO's interior to if you don't mind me asking? Specific complaints? You're seriously the first person I've ever heard that didn't like it.

It's one of my favorite GM interiors too. I saw a black GTO with red leather yesterday. It was gorgeous.

I have driven most of the above, but after all that selection i chose a Mercedes E300 TD. I can only imagine that car's balance and refinement as an AMG. The GTO is great from the standpoint of big V8 and RWD, but the styling just makes me want to vomit... and I'm a classic American Iron kinda guy. They just re-badged a boring Holden

In this arena, Mazda and Acura just can't compare. They're great cars, but they are attempting to engineer "up" to the heavy players.

E46 is always a good bet. They're a bit portly, but they offer a great package.

Honestly, here's my deal. My wife's E300 got smashed. Its a 99 with 190k on the clock. We were given a brand new 09 G6 as a rental. Granted, its not even in the same ballpark, but the interior, fit and finish, and NVH of the brand new (26 miles) GM was light years behind the 99 E-class with nearly 200k on it. It was shameful. In 10 years, GM couldn't quiet the buzzes and rattles? The V6 gasser in the G6 was louder and shakier than the DIESEL in the 99 E-class. The GTO is a nice brute-force muscle car, but it has GM build quality which shouldn't even be considered when looking at $20k cars in my opinion.

But... don't put too much emphasis on the Merc's 722.xx auto tranny. Its a finely tuned instrument that shifts very intuitively, but its a bit finnicky on maintenance and strength. It lasts a very long time, but its NOT cheap to rebuild, replace, or repair.

As far as other parts prices, don't worry a bit about it. If you find a wholesaler, they can sell you German parts for about the same as American or Japanese parts, and I think you'll find that the German cars offer far superior ease of repair than the Japanese. Their engineering is complete, including making repairs easy. Good luck replacing the timing belt in that Mazda, but the Germans make it easy.

If you're spending $20k, don't even think about an American car unless its a 67 GTO. and trying to compare a Mazda to an E-class or an E46 is pretty pointless.

It's one of my favorite GM interiors too. I saw a black GTO with red leather yesterday. It was gorgeous.

Gorgeous, yes. Quality? Not by a long shot. Take a look at that leather in 100k miles compared to an E-class or E46.

My E300's interior at 180k:

My E30's interior at 168k:

My 96 Impala SS at 125k? Fogettaboutit. Trashed. Leather is ripped in several places. Where its not ripped, its cracked and ugly. Dash is hopelessly faded, cracked, and discolored. The floormats wore through to the carpet, and now the carpet has worn through to the floor pan... and now the floorpan has worn through to bare metal. The steering wheel is hopeless, the plastic on all the interior panels is sticky and the labels have all worn off the window and seat switches... the list can continue forever.

P71 wrote: What are you comparing the GTO's interior to if you don't mind me asking? Specific complaints? You're seriously the first person I've ever heard that didn't like it.

My complaints have nothing at all to do with the look or oohlookatme stitching, or even gauge color coordination. It looks fine, but felt like crap.

I simply didn't like the tactile feel of the touch surfaces. For instance, pretend you've got really fat fingers and adjust the HVAC controls. The panel is flimsy and feels unsubstantial. I'd say the same for switches and buttons, but it's been a long time so I can't remember which switches specifically. The dash pad itself felt off to me as well.

Another thing that I really didn't like was the button on the seat to tilt/slide for rear seat access. Okay, you've saved me the effort of reaching down for a handle, but now I'm forced to wait for the stupid motor to move the seat instead? Lame.

I'd still drive one, but I'm not going to brag about the interior. My two cents.

At the time I was shopping it, I was comparing it with an STI, which was also on the flimsy side, but still felt more durable (and had way better ergonomics) than the GTO.

John's GTO is fast approaching 60K miles (if it hasn't blown by already) and the interior still looks exactly like it did new. (The paint on the outside sure doesn't, but I digress...) I do have fat fingers but the HVAC switches feel a LOT more quality then the old school Ford units in my P71 (same as the 87-04 Mustangs) or the 05-09 Mustangs. I will agree about the slow butt seat motors though, they are annoying.

I'm just trying to get a feel for what you're comparing it to, maybe I just haven't been in any really nice cars lately.

Oh and curtis, you cannot compare the 80's leftover GM "leather" in the Impala SS to the Australian hides in the GTO. Because it is just a "rebadged Holden" it has a lot better quality and design then the US stuff. Although I honestly don't think they are boring looking (then again I hate the 05+ Mustang so I'm probably weird).

So I've sort of whittled the list down to the E46 M3, E39 M5, and CTS-V. I also should have listed my interior requirement as "no dove gray leather". I hate dove gray and it seems like they sold at least half of every model with that damn ugly leather.

Looks: M3 > M5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTS-V. The caddy looks too much like, well, a caddy. No matter how fast it is I'll still feel like someones grandfather every time I get in it.

Speed: CTS-V > M5 >>M3. HP are pretty similar between all of them, however the caddy seems to be fastest by a decent margin.

Fun factor: ?? Of the group I've only driven the M5 and it was mighty entertaining. I need to drive the other two but I doubt I'll dislike the driving experience of any car in this class.

As far as quality goes the bimmers blow the CTS out of the water. A co-worker has a regular CTS and the interior, while "nice", is certainly not up to german standards. It's also sort of dreary and dark in there with very little personality or character.

Maintenance/reliability: A small block chevy wins this battle any day.

I guess the more that I think about it I really don't like the CTS that much...

How have you found the e46 M3 prices to be against the e39 M5 prices? I'm not shopping for either right now, but, in casually looking, it seems as though the prices are almost equivalent! That's hard to believe, given that there was a ~$30k gap in sticker price when new (low $50k's to low $80k's).

P71 wrote: Oh and curtis, you cannot compare the 80's leftover GM "leather" in the Impala SS to the Australian hides in the GTO. Because it is just a "rebadged Holden" it has a lot better quality and design then the US stuff. Although I honestly don't think they are boring looking (then again I *hate* the 05+ Mustang so I'm probably weird).

I agree, the SS comparison was a little extreme. That was an afterthought car that got the shaft on seats. But, the dash, carpet, interior panels, and other pieces are fair game. I'll show you pictures of how the door armrest is trashed, a different color than the rest of the interior, and deformed. The plastic trim on the doors is bowed and warped, the A-pillars are faded, the rear deck carpet... or I should say fuzz glued to cardboard... is pitted, pilled, and wasted. Its not just the cheap leather, its cheap everything in comparison. And this interior (aside from the floor console and leather seats) was the same as every B-body from 91-97, and some of those parts like the carpet have been in use since the 60s.

But I'm with you on the Mustang. Talk about cheap plastic interior I actually scratched myself on the edge of a door panel that had that sharp plastic casting flash on the edge of it.

I agree that all that stuff is bad on the B-Body, but it's not on the GTO. The GTO's a-pillars are covered in a cloth upholstery, the armrests are actual leather with double stitching, and the under-dash surfaces have suede on them for when you're wearing shorts. I tell you, you have to go and sit in one. If you were plopped into a de-badged GTO interior and not told who made it you never would have guessed GM in a million billion years, it really is that good. Maybe not german good, but certainly better than Caddy good.

Now the Mustang interiors, holy hell are they bad!

E46 M3. It is a brilliant car - its a lightweight in that group at 3400lbs and has one of the sweetest engines ever made. It is a swiss army knife - race track, open highway, snowy roads, and country club valet parking. The 330ZHP is next on my list... the bigger cars don't appeal to me much.

I really think the GTO is probably pretty awesome too but its also really heavy and I'd put it as a contender to the 540i/M5 size car (which although awesome, are also too heavy).

dyintorace wrote: How have you found the e46 M3 prices to be against the e39 M5 prices? I'm not shopping for either right now, but, in casually looking, it seems as though the prices are almost equivalent! That's hard to believe, given that there was a ~$30k gap in sticker price when new (low $50k's to low $80k's).

Prices are alarmingly similar. I think it's due to the market for the m3 being much stronger and the larger bimmers historically suffering pretty bad depreciation. It seems that after about 5 years all the M cars are worth about the same relative to mileage no matter what the underlying platform is. The exception being S54 M Coupes and E30 M3s demanding a premium regardless of mileage or condition.

I'm finding that 00-03 M3s and M5s in excellent shape with service records are going for about $18-22k with 80,000-100,000 miles. Convertibles are down about $2k. There doesn't seem to be a big gap between dealer and private party values.

I'd like to get an M3 with over 70k miles since they all seem to get the clutch done at that mileage.

Wow. I've driven the '05 up Mustang. Loved the interior. I had an SVT Contour. Other than the seats, it really shares most of it's interior with regular Contours. There were places you could see the casting flash, but in 3 years it never bothered me. My 740iL has some sort of plastic instead of leather for the dash (you had to have a Highline or a 750 to get leather on the dash), and you know what? In 2+ years of ownership, I've never stroked the dash to care about tactile sensations! Sometimes I wonder what people are doing while driving for years to even care. After a year or two of ownership are you getting in, sitting down, reaching out to the instrument binnacle and stroking it while going "ooooooohhhh..." ?

About the only thing I care about is if it'll hold dirt, and are the things I need to use easy to get to.

Chris_V wrote: After a year or two of ownership are you getting in, sitting down, reaching out to the instrument binnacle and stroking it while going "ooooooohhhh..." ? About the only thing I care about is if it'll hold dirt, and are the things I need to use easy to get to.

Amen, I seriously find opinions of which car has the 'better' or 'nicest' interrior to be totally subjective below a certain price point, after that point is reached (depending on vintage) most are all on the level.

As for the GTO, when it came out it was impressive on the inside for any GM vehicle at the same price point. Was it on par with a BMW 5 series? No, but it also cost $20k less new...

man i would love a E46 M3 with SMG, just kinda scared what the service bill would be to replace a clutch on one... E39 M5 is around the same price range that ive seen...

I am aweful partial to the styling of Acura's TL type-S, but I would have to throw my money behind the CTS-V Mk1

The Mustang/Ford dash doesn't bother me (hellooooo I drive one :P ), it's the parts that you DO touch being crappy that sucks. Ford's worst offense is steering wheels, I've never found a Ford steering wheel I've liked, and you have to touch the thing all the dang time! There's 2 little plastic pieces on the backside of mine that cover some screws. Those plastic pieces are so loose that they can turn around and around in the hole. So I find myself spinning the stupid things with my finger while I'm driving.

I've just never liked Ford interiors. The steering wheel, console, and switchgear in my SHO sucked and staring at the massive expanse of black plastic on the dash actually annoyed me enough to have it professionally painted (color matched to the outside). The seats in my P71 would give a quadriplegic a back ache, the steering wheel sucks, and again it has a massive cheap dash (not as annoying since it's supposed to be cheap, but still annoying enough to make me want to paint it).

I remember riding in my mom's brand new 97 TBird and getting a nasty cut on my arm from the casting flash! Or the buddy with a 5.0 94 Mustang 'Vert who's dash rattled so bad the radio would quit (car had only 20K miles) and the door panels that literally fell off of the door. Or hell, even my waaaay too many fox TBird's with the stupid broken door pulls and the armrests that would fall off or the center console armrest/cover lid made of plastic that cracked if your arm got within a foot of it.

OK, I think I'm done

I'm not sure how they would be reliability wise or price/maintenance wise but how about a Saab 9-3 or 9-5?

Since Acura was brought up and there may bad things or downsides about the TL, how about an older TSX?

I hate to say it, but SAAB's qc has gone down hill since GM got their foot in the door with them. I would love to recommend one but I just can't. The pre GM SAABs are very nice cars, my car having close to 240k miles on it and not 1 crack in the Elmo leather, the dash has a couple of rattles pop up but nothing tightening a screw didn't solve.

I'm kinda disappointed to hear that information about the GTO's interior though as I was thinking about looking at one myself for a newer car to play with and I do like the styling very much. I might still have to go look at one to confirm.

Speaking of E-classes though My wife and I were thinking of replacing the SAAB with a 2003 or so E class wagon, anyone had any experience with those cars? Something like This

skruffy wrote: I guess the more that I think about it I really don't like the CTS that much...

Not surprising, really...I mean, you hadn't even considered a Caddy that could zig when you started your comparo but you did consider 4 different Bimmers, so it's obviously at a bit of a disadvantage in the comparo. It all depends on your priorities and subjective stuff like styling that none of us can pin down for you. I completely agree that the Caddy interior is nice, yet not quite on par with the Bimmers, so if that's your priority the choice is clear. The Germans are notoriously good at interiors. On the other hand, when long term ownership comes into play, the Caddy seems like it would be a heck of a lot cheaper and easier to maintain. LSx+T56 is a (very, very) tough combo to beat. The Germans are notoriously bad at making things more complicated than they should be (that is, since they stopped designing air cooled stuff).

For what it's worth, when the GTO and the CTS-V first came out I compared both on a cone course and the CTS-V was by far and away more fun to drive, far more responsive ride and obviously designed/tuned to be far more nimble feeling than the goat was. While the powertrain is very similar, the chassis feel is very different. The Bimmers "feel" better than a V in the sense of the scalpel versus the sledgehammer. They both have moments of glory, just depends on your mood.

Bryce

G_Stock,

Go sit in one. Seriously.

P71 wrote: G_Stock, Go sit in one. Seriously.

Well I took your advice and went to look at one today it was an '04 with 46k on the clock, I thought the interior was actually really nice, the seats where comfortable, controls fell to hand very easily, overall the feel of the interior was very nice, granted it's been a while since I have looked at new cars, but the feel was of the same quality as my wife's '03 Avalon.

The next step is to go look at a G35 Coupe and compare with it.

Never sat in a G35, but have been in a Nismo 350Z. It was nice except the sills were so high I couldn't see out of the car.