The perfect HD?

Josh wrote: The bike is MUCH narrower than the car. Even though it sucks dynamically in comparison to the car, the bike can use a whole lot more of the track than the car. There's your lap time.

I don't think that is the case.

I have raced 250GP and 600 supersports at Mid Ohio and rode several of my 1000cc street bikes while teaching at the Mid Ohio school. I saw 165 mph on the back straight on my Aprilia speedo. I did a ride along and with the car school in a stock s2000 and was crapping myself at how deep he went into that turn (and he couldn't have been going 120 mph).

That is where the time is made - brake later / harder. Higher mid corner speed and on the gas sooner.

Otto_Maddox wrote: I don't know much about the subject but I was surprised to see that the track record at Barber is much faster for a car than a bike - 14 seconds!

Don't forget that they race a lot higher spec car at Barber then they do bikes.

A Penske Indycar is hella higher spec then the near production bikes that the AMA now races.

Also, the AMA talent pool has not been this shallow in decades. Sure - Matt & Ben were top notch, but they have been gone a few years.

My bike, per My owner's manual with the crappy Dunlop tires it came with and not the Metzler front I use, stopping from 60: 148 ft. Maybe your problem was looking for "FHLT" specs.

Rusnak_322 wrote:

Josh wrote: The bike is MUCH narrower than the car. Even though it sucks dynamically in comparison to the car, the bike can use a whole lot more of the track than the car. There's your lap time.

I don't think that is the case. I have raced 250GP and 600 supersports at Mid Ohio and rode several of my 1000cc street bikes while teaching at the Mid Ohio school. I saw 165 mph on the back straight on my Aprilia speedo. I did a ride along and with the car school in a stock s2000 and was crapping myself at how deep he went into that turn (and he couldn't have been going 120 mph). That is where the time is made - brake later / harder. Higher mid corner speed and on the gas sooner.

Yes, exactly, but I meant in that particular case, the reason that the particular bike mentioned was slightly faster around the track than the car despite being measurably worse on braking and similar on acceleration was due primarily to vehicle width. The car was almost certainly pulling more lateral Gs in the corners as well, because it had to take a tighter line due to the fact that it isn't a foot wide.

Dr. Hess wrote: My bike, per My owner's manual with the crappy Dunlop tires it came with and not the Metzler front I use, stopping from 60: 148 ft. Maybe your problem was looking for "FHLT" specs.

I just looked at the first test I found, but 148 ft is still pretty atrocious compared to just about any small or midsize car. My mom's minivan does it in 123.

wearymicrobe wrote: RealMiniDriver is there any truth to the fact that I cannot buy a Harley from a dealer out of my area and have it shipped in. When I was in PA for work there was a ton on Glides for sale much cheaper then I would have expected.

I can't answer that, honestly, but I know that my uncle, in Milwaukee, goes to Chicago to buy new BMWs (cars). When I sold cars briefly, I had an out-of-state customer buy a car. It took some phone calls and I think some extra paperwork, but buying a new vehicle from a different state shouldn't be impossible.

"shipping it in"? Im not sure I understand what your intentions are? Do you mean buy it from one dealer and have it delivered to a different one? I can't imagine any dealer would be willing to play that game.

I sell Harleys. We are in Milwaukee (www.halshd.com) , and ship bikes all over. It costs about $650 (or less) to ship a bike pretty much anywhere door-to-door. New bikes cannot be shipped out-of-country...and they cannot be shipped to states with different emmissions regs (we can not ship NEW bikes to CA, for example). Used bikes can be shipped anywhere...and are often shipped to local (to the buyer) H-D dealers as a pick-up point for the customer.

ST_ZX2 wrote: Buell S3 Thunderbolt

I own that! Just got back in from riding.

I'm not here to defend HD. They do over price their bikes which is why a lot of us won't buy from them. My other gripe about HD is the attitude at local dealers. I'm a mere 37 years old. Most times I'm the youngest guy in the shop who might ride. The sales guys won't give me a second look. Np. I bought quite a few Buell's used and at great prices. I love them. Inexpensive, simple, handle well, and have enough power for street riding. I haven't had a reliability issue with any of the three I've owned.

• 97 M2 Cyclone
• 98 S3 Thunderbolt
• TL1000S - bought this when I wanted more power. Later sold because the riding position was rough.
• 01 S3

I will say the HD/Buell's can't be abused like a jap bike or ridden on the redline for hours at a time. They just won't hold up to that abuse. Jap engines will....for a time. But most guys don't see the end result of that thrashing as sport bike riders tend to hold a bike for 5 years or so unless they're touring riders. Touring guys, in my experience, have longer relationships with bikes. They also maintain them religiously and ride more sedately.

Let's consider some points below since the penis measuring has begun. I won't win but I'll stretch mine out just for kicks.

FlightService wrote: I would like to see a new Dyna Glide on a dealer floor for $12,900

It has been quoted often that Honda lost money on every VFR every sold. HD can't afford that economy. Again, HD's are over priced when new. Buy a slightly older one, or cheaper yet a Buell, and you'll come out ahead.

FlightService wrote: Electric fuel injection has been on cars since '57.

Let's consider this. Should FI be on every engine made? It's complex. It's untunable without some electronic device such as a computer or tuner. It has it's advantages but should we have complexity just because we can? Personally, I don't mind carbs on a bike. They work fine, easily tunable, durable, and well understood.

FlightService wrote: Who said anything about liquid vs air cooled as a statement of technological presence? I know of none of the Jap or hell even European manufactures that doesn't use at least oil cooling on their bikes.

Air cooling is interesting as well. Same points as above. If you don't need the complexity of water cooling why have it? You're hauling around extra weight and complexity for something that may not be needed.

If ultimate horsepower is your goal it's a necessity. But if you're secure enough in your masculinity to ride a bike that makes under 100 hp you don't really need water cooling. (Just goofing about the masculinity part. Hayabusa guys don't need to get mad.)

FlightService wrote: I am talking about the wonderful "mis-teak" of the vibration and that annoying noise coming out of those damn gutted pipes. Oh that wonderful thing that slings bolts (My duc was bad for it as well, one of the reasons I am glad it is gone.) Ever heard of Loc-tite? They charge enough for them they should at least give me that much. The flow rates for the intake and exhaust and maximum RPM on HD is gawd aweful. That much displacement and almost the entire lineup will be beaten by some squid on a 600cc sport bike! Look at Suzuki's old Intruder 1400. "Classic" styling and it's day it was the 2nd quickest bike available, only to the V-max!. Every mean HD I have seen has aftermarket heads, chips, and a list of mods that would let you buy two sport bikes for the same money.

Blah, blah, blah flow rates, exhaust note, vibration.

Again, if you're not into having 140 hp on the street all this conversation is academic EXCEPT for your noise and vibration points.

Noise, I can't stand gutted pipes. But from the factory HD's are fairly quiet as well as Buell's. You're confusing the product with the rider at this point. That's like saying all sport bikes are death machines. If they're ridden immaturely they're a quick way to suicide. That's a rider problem, not a product problem.

Vibration is a problem on the V-twin engine design. Jap bike makers designed the vibration out and watched their cruiser lines lose sales. I don't get it either but it's the way it's been for quite awhile. I can say my Buell's don't vibrate at anything but idle. The HD isolator system does a good job of ironing those out at speed. I think most HD products now use a rubber mount system. Maybe you're talking more about older HD products than the newer stuff?

FlightService wrote: I am all for made in America and pride in what we do, but for God's sake produce something that will compete.

Buell did all right when they competed. Pretty cool for a marque that had a very tight racing budget. In before you start with "rules favored Buell, not reliable, blah, blah blah". All things you could say about Ducati at one point or another.

But again, what does competition have to do with street riding?

Speaking of competition...ever see the documentary about John Britten? Holy sh!t. That guy. Made all his own parts. Redesigned his motorcycle from scratch. Kicked major a$$. Talk about a grassroots inspiration. Check it out man. You won't be disappointed if you're a gear head. Here is a pic of his bike as it might jog your memory.

Sexy right?!

FlightService wrote: I thought Buell was on it's way with the upcoming, now dead, V-Rod engined based bike, but instead they got an engine from Rotax. I miss Buell, they were the last hope for HD IMHO. They at least gave them something of a complete lineup.

You mean the 1125R? They made it in 2007.

Check out the specs. 150 hp and 10k redline are interesting. I also hear the Erik Buell designed front end has incredible feel and feedback. This is from friends I have who race semi-competitively. I trust their judgement.

FlightService wrote: I think it is funny the people on this forum defending one of the heaviest CC for CC bikes on the planet, when in every other post, we all preach light is right. Boggles the mind. And before anyone quips, yes I know the company that built my bike was owned by HD for a while, and a few times.

Riding motorcycles isn't all about performance. It's nice to have as we all like some power and performance. Riding is more about the journey as opposed to how many parsecs it takes you to make the Kessel run.

I hope I don't sound uber critical here. I've bashed HD back in the day. Believe me. I hated having to go there for parts of my Buell's. The few guys there trying to act like bad arses were annoying but eventually I got over it. I now go to an independant HD shop. Those guys are not joke. They raced iron head bikes back in the day. No time for BS there. Also, very little attiude as long as I'm spending green ya know?

I didn't want an HD but I rode with some good guys who did. They didn't buy the bikes because they wanted to buy Amurican. They bought the bikes because that's how they liked to ride. BMW GS guys ride a lot the same. Long rides, low(er) speeds than sport bikes, and varied destinations. No one rags on BMW for making a fookin huge bike with lower power. But HD? They might as well have a bullseye on their back.

I think a lot of the animosity comes from about 1% of the riders of HD products. Same as sport bikes. Some guys just ride like dicks. Some guys just act like dicks. It happens.

But these days I just hang back and have some fun while riding. I'm over trying to ride fast to impress people so HD's don't rile me as much.

Josh wrote: I figure the police equipment and all the crap Hess has loaded onto his bike are about a wash in terms of weight. Maybe it stops quicker without ABS, but it damn sure isn't knocking 70 feet off that number. Fact is, the average bike stops quite poorly compared to the average car, and unfortunately most riders assume exactly the opposite.

I can outstop 99.9% of the cars on the street on my bike. I probably can't out stop something like a 911 but how many of those are cruising around in my rear view mirror as opposed to barely maintained Honda Accords? If we're talking race conditions then we're not talking about street riding. Race vs. street is a completely separate conversation.

Also keep in mind that most HD's don't remain stock for long. If Hess says he can raise the rear tire on his bagger..I believe him. I've seen motorcycle cops do things on a full dress Harley that you won't believe. Including elevating the rear tire on an 1000+ lb bike while braking using the front brake. Just some food for thought.

Would you also believe that I've been on a ride where I saw a Goldwing rider out run a whole pack of amateur racers on a sportbike? It happened. I was there.

Motorcycling is vastly different from car racing in that motorcycle performance riding is 70% rider, 30% cycle. While car racing tends to flip those ratios. It's truly an amazing sport.

In reply to Xceler8x:

Other than most of my posts were taken out of context ignoring the root of the comment, good reply.

In reverse order here

You missed the point I liked Buell. Harley killing it was, imho, dumb. I understand sales were down but that is because you tried to sell them in an environment you have created to alienate anyone who would ride that style of bike. Their biggest point of failure was the Harley mill, which got fixed for one model. My next bike still might be a 1125R, if I will fit...and about that. Yes the 1125R had the Rotax NOT the V-rod engine. Why not use the V-rod engine, it is a great modern engine? I think Erik knows something the rest of us don't about that power plant. The comment was "why doesn't Buell use the V-Rod engine."

I hammer BMW for having a overly heavy engine/BHP on the GS which they fixed (or at least started to.) I am a fan of the F800GS. I think that is the hot ticket in the BMW lineup for Adventure Touring class. The one thing BMW has in their bricks and Wasser Boxers is longevity. Things go forever.

From a safety, avoid the idiot in a car point, motorcycling is all about performance. If you are kidding your self saying it's not, or a mini van sliding door is in your future. I don't ride 9 x 10^9876543 MPH. Never have. I would rather cut a perfect curve at 50 than hit a highway at 190. More than once I have jumped curbs, hit ditches, and climbed sidewalks on my Cagiva to avoid oblivious car drivers. Adventure Tourers are good for doing that repeatedly, lightweight bikes are good for doing that at least once.

Thanks for bringing up the Jap designing out vibes and back in due to sales. A smooth V-twin is a thing of beauty. The Honda SuperHawk and Pacific Coast are silky smooth machines. The Suzuki VX800 only gained popularity after it was killed. The SV650 is a super machine as well. In a nut shell if I wanted to ride on the rumble strips I will. I don't need a bike that will do that on it's own. Yes I want flow rate and the rest of your blah blah blah. I want power and an efficient use of fuel. Not a noise maker, I by those for kids when they were babies to go to sleep. The vibration although they have been rubber mounted for years, still shakes the whole bike. Check the mirrors.

The old iron head Harleys were fast, in a single make class. Check out Honda's entry and exit into flat track racing and why they did it. Harley ran their mouth, Honda go offended, Entered flat tracking, kicked HD tail two years straight, left it. In the end anybody who competitively races a bike has my respect. Uber skills there.

No one brought up track creds. Too long and off post.

The money quote was compared to an off the floor Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha/Kawasaki some one posted how cheap you could get a Dyna for. I said I bet you couldn't, one person said they bought a slightly used one for 11. Taken completely out of context there what you implied in your post. Still haven't seen an MSRP for a 2011 or newer Dyna at 12,900, and probably won't EVER.

I find it amazing you could buy a Buell and all that tech in that chassis and engineering for the price they were selling it for. Even with the antiquated mill in it they turned and stopped with authority.

Fuel injection has more parts but is LESS complicated. Yes it requires a little electronics to work with but then again, I had to buy a Torx set at one time too. The backbone of that comment was that I was saying harley's had no technology and someone brought up the fuel injection on them. I stated as a rebuttal fuel injection has been avail able since 1957. So Harley's idea of high tech is a Brembo brake and fuel injection? (reference to a previous poster.)

Like you said they over price their bikes. Their lineup isn't modern. I guess after allot of thought I will get to my point.

How many of us have met HD riders that won't wave at another biker, unless they think it is a hog? How many have listened to flub flub flub at a red light deafening who ever is with you. When you ride a Harley you buy what every riders attitude before you has given. With bikes it is a personal choice. Harley, being the marketing gurus they are, have ran with this image. The result anyone not on a HD goes to their dealership is instantly ostracised for being there. Crappy service from the staff (I have personally experienced this at 4 HD dealerships on my Cagiva when looking at Buell) They won't speak to you, as you have mentioned, or worse. There are other instances, iIf you own a Mustang, or Camaro people expect you to be a redneck/gear head. A Miata, well a girl or gay. (Guys let's face it, that is the perception, they are great cars but that is the perception.)

If someone wants a hog, fine, this is America spend your money as you see fit. I hope you have long, happy safe rides. Just know this, some of us who have worked in multiple brand shops and have got to compare bike for bike know they are NOT a quality product. In the end it is about the experience of being a Harley rider. You are buying a name, an image, a style. You have joined the MC equivalent of Hugo Boss, Armani and Prada. Don't confuse yourself with the Red Kap or Rocky crowd.

Rant over who wants a beer?

Xceler8x wrote: Would you also believe that I've been on a ride where I saw a Goldwing rider out run a whole pack of amateur racers on a sportbike? It happened. I was there.

I have had a GL1500 on the rear tire in second. Guys at the shop told me to get on it and be-careful, but definitely get on it hard. I knew the owner well so I did. 1200 lbs in the air going like a BToH!!!.

Come to find out he was in for his semi annual front forks seals. When he left the shop he was on the rear. Honda never designed that bike for that.

In the immortal words of the Airborne at Bastogne "nuts"

FlightService wrote: The money quote was compared to an off the floor Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha/Kawasaki some one posted how cheap you could get a Dyna for. I said I bet you couldn't, one person said they bought a slightly used one for 11. Taken completely out of context there what you implied in your post. Still haven't seen an MSRP for a 2011 or newer Dyna at 12,900, and probably won't EVER.

FYI, it was BRAND berkeleying NEW for 11. *edit: less than 11

How many of us have met HD riders that won't wave at another biker, unless they think it is a hog?

I wave. It'susually the crotch rockets riders that don't wave.

Xceler8x wrote: Riding is more about the journey as opposed to how many parsecs it takes you to make the Kessel run.

That just about nails it.

Crotch rocket riders are completely another thread, don't ride them, don't fit.

What was the sticker? Not what you talked them down to? I am giving you the opportunity to compare apples to apples here.

What not taking me up on the beer?

Sticker was 12something, I got optional color and security that bumped it up over the MSRP of 11,999. Not discounting the trade I had, i paid 10,252 + ttl. How many 1600cc Japanese cruisers can be found for 12grand?

Im out riding right now, so the beer will have to wait.

*Edited for egg on my face. I had my figures wrong.

Pics please and you can rain check the beer

Pics of what? I posted one of me on my bike on the first page.

You showed a 2006, at least that was the caption I'm confused

Here's the bike I started with. The "Starting at" price, circled in red, is for Vivid Black. The optional Pewter Pearl, that mine is, was extra.

If you're referring to this:

RealMiniDriver wrote: '06+ Dyna. FXD(C, B, L, F)

That was in answer to the original question aboout what the perfect HD was, specifically naming the Dyna line. Mine is an '09, but HD website doesn't show that, only '10 & '11

Sorry you felt misquoted in the above posts. I think we're both clear on our opinions. Beer offer noted!

FlightService wrote: I have had a GL1500 on the rear tire in second. Guys at the shop told me to get on it and be-careful, but definitely get on it hard. I knew the owner well so I did. 1200 lbs in the air going like a BToH!!!. Come to find out he was in for his semi annual front forks seals. When he left the shop he was on the rear. Honda never designed that bike for that. In the immortal words of the Airborne at Bastogne "nuts"

GW's are huge and hugely powerful. I'm amazed at what some guys can do with such a large bike. I see you've witnessed the impossible as well.

RealMiniDriver wrote:

Xceler8x wrote: Riding is more about the journey as opposed to how many parsecs it takes you to make the Kessel run.

That just about nails it.

Thanks for reading buddy. It took me awhile to learn that. Sometimes I still forget but I try to keep it in mind.

Oh god. And price. I stupidly bought that 98 Buell S3 new. Sheesh. I think I paid over 10k for it. Stupid. It was my first new bike.

Something I think we can all say is cool...

Did you guys see this? Detroit Thunder Drome.

The race course is an old velodrome in Detroit. Looks fun right? I was thinking that it looks like Lemons for bikes. A metric ton of more pics at the link.

Kneedragging on a GW1800

I have ground off the sidestand pedal on a 1500. Nothing some black paint didn't cover up. The GLs trick is all the weight is very low. They are solid for sweepers but don't do rapid turns very well.

PS if one is about to fall off of a MC lift don't try to catch it.

RealMiniDriver wrote: Kneedragging on a GW1800

FlightService wrote: I have ground off the sidestand pedal on a 1500. Nothing some black paint didn't cover up. The GLs trick is all the weight is very low. They are solid for sweepers but don't do rapid turns very well. PS if one is about to fall off of a MC lift don't try to catch it.

..just let it go man. It's gone anyway.

Xceler8x wrote: ..just let it go man. It's gone anyway.

Yeah my back thanks your wonder hindsight crystal ball